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Chrstianity and Science - how?

~Anastasia~

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I must apologize - I just went to the "new post" section without regard to the actual forum topic.

Too many rules - too many laws - sooo legalistic. Our thoughts are held captive. No wonder I avoid these places...

If you want to "explore christianity," how about opening up a Bible and going to Church?

Hello, Coreece, and welcome to CF. :) We are glad that you've joined us.

We do have many forum areas, as you can probably see, and some have fairly tight rules while others are more relaxed. With so many members of all kinds from all over the world, Christian and non-Christian, it helps to sort out different kinds of topics, forum membership, and rules of conduct, so that everyone has comfortable places they can enjoy posting. Many of us find one or several boards that suit us and frequent those areas mostly - they can be saved as favorites and jumped to quickly. :)

If you need any help finding your way around, please let us know. We do have forums devoted to politics, to theology, to various denominations, to all kinds of interests from hobbies to medical conditions, age groups and life stages, and much more. The Statement of Purpose for each forum will list any special rules for that area.

It can seem a little overwhelming, but when you find areas that have the kinds of discussions you prefer, it becomes much easier. As I said, if you need any help, please let myself, another ambassador, or a staff member know (tags under our names on the left) and we will be glad to help.

Again, welcome to CF, and I pray you are blessed by being here!
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you for your gracious welcome despite my pomposity, lol.

I'd like to offer my sincere apology for disrupting the forum with politics.

game on. . .
You're welcome. And all is well ... you get a pass for being new, and we are what - 9 pages in now?

But we do have political forums, and judging by the thread titles that pop under "new" throughout the day, I suspect they are very active, if that's what you like. :)

Let us know if we can help, and carry on. :)
 
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chilehed

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I would love to get simply yes/no answers on these 4 questions to get some insight in how Christians view science.

Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?
Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?
Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?
Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?
Same answer to every question: many do, some don't.
 
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archer75

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As a personal answer to all the questions in the OP: I try not to have an opinion about things I haven't studied. I have zero knowledge of the sciences that people use to date the origin of the universe. Or to date fossils and so on.

That said, I believe that science and learning are real, and I don't think that I have any grounds to dispute those claims as a Christian.
 
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lesliedellow

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Christians would mostly agree over the Nicene Creed, but there is a wide spectrum of opinion when it comes to their attitudes towards science - at least there is in the United States. Outside of the United States, maybe 95% of Christians would answer yes to your four questions. Inside the United States, 46% of the population famously believes that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
 
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paul becke

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Different Christians believe different things. I would venture to say that if the Bible and a scientific fact ever appear to contradict each other, it's that we're understanding the Bible wrong. Not that the Bible itself is wrong, but things can be misinterpreted.

My own belief is that some parts of the Bible are literal, while all of it is true, and that "true" and "literal" don't have to mean the same thing. For example, when Jesus called the Pharisees "snakes" and King Herod a "fox," He was obviously using figurative language. The Pharisees were not really legless reptiles, and King Herod was not actually any of several species of the canid family. So, sometimes the Bible can use figurative or symbolic language and still be true.

The Creation stories, then, I would say can be open to a number of explanations. It's possible God did everything in six literal 24-hour days, and somehow made it appear otherwise. He's powerful enough to do that, and we don't always understand His ways. It's also possible, based on other passages in the Bible, that "day" doesn't necessarily mean a period of 24 hours. We don't always mean it that way ourselves, such as when we say, "Back in my day, things were like this or that." We don't mean 24 hours. We mean an indefinite period of time, but we say "day."

And that's just my opinion.

I saw on our Mass-sheet today a very brief little piece, with the following comments in conclusion :

'It is not necessary for us to understand either the garden of Eden story or Jesus' experience with Satan as being historical. These stories are primarily vehicles to communicate important stories to us.'

The final sentence clearly makes sense. Sola Scriptural types often have a greatly impoverished understanding of the nature of scripture, since they read it in an entirely linear way, failing to realise the profound truth of the saying that God draws straight with crooked lines. In other words, our attitude of humility, when we read the scriptures must subordinate our reading of the text as a starightforward exercise in English comprehension to the certainty that what is being conveyed is, in fact, a supernatutal and therefore extremely mysterious nature, increasingly involving paradoxes, mysteries of the faith, the more profoundly we penetrate the meanings and messages contained in the various texts.

Perhaps the most classic example of this is the text, in which it is related that many peple then stooped folloiwing Jesus, i.e. the passage in which tells his siteners that they must eat his body and drink his blood.

The problem with the brief passage I quoted above is that a similar-seeming mindset has, in the past, led to a modern form of gnosticism, and one might say equally argue that it is even less necessary to understand either the Garden of Eden story of Jesus' experience with Satan as being unhistorical.

If, as the author truthfully indicated, is is not necessary to view the story as literally true, that will surely lead to the more worldly intellectuals among the scripture-scholars and theologians to entertain an ever-growing scepticism that takes us 'right off the reservation'. I did hear an elderly seminary lecturer tell our class that, of course, God wouldn't have really walked in the Garden of Eden...

Well, now, whatever the ostensible dubieties concerning the literal truth of, for instance, the snake's talking to Eve, there is surely nothing too fanciful about a god who was prepared to be incarnated as a tiny, mortal human-being deigning to walk in the Garden of Eden - presumably assuming a human form, as was the wont of the angels - as Almighy God. That assumption that God would be far too grand to bother about us piffling little mortals to the extent of interacting with individuals, is a common belief of athiests, who show a surprising knowledge (at least, claimed as such) of how Good would or wouldn't act.

So, it is easy to see, rather, that it would only serve as the 'thin edge of the wedge' for many of the more academically-trained Christians, to needlessly dismiss the historicity of other Bible stories, since they have proved so gullible in the matter of science. Their understanding of the philosophy of science, most notably the implications of quantum physics, and now information as the basis of all living things, they have simply had to accept them, wholesale, without being able top offer anything but thoroughly risible, materialist conjectures by way of explanation.

Note that one the putatively basic scientific axioms is said by the OP to be that the earth is 13 1/2 billion years old. Well, it happens that an atheist believer in the latter admitted, as if jokingly, that one of the implications of quantum machanics is that the world we see at any moment migh be very much less than a nano-second old. I believe that is to do with the fact, again, well empirically attested, that when we cease to look at a thing, it ceases to exist. The implications eesmms to be that we each were born, live and die in a little world of our own, integrated and coordinated by an omniscient and omipotent agent (clearly, God).

That, in turn makes it far easier to understand how even such a god could be the agent behind light-beams that tracks every human Observer, whether stationary or traveling at a constant speed, at their own absolute speed.

The idea that science is somehow the standard against which all truth must be measured is actually a very sorry joke. Your opinion sounds 'on the money' to me, LovebirdsFlying.
 
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paul becke

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Remember, sola scriptura isn't the same thing as inerrancy. I accept sola scriptura but not inerrancy, and plenty of Catholics have believed in the literal accuracy of Gensis.

Perhaps, I gave the wrong impression. I do, too. I should imagine inerrancy people understand that the Bible is full of imagery of one kind and another. It is possible that Noah didn't manage to save a male and a female of all the animals, or even one. The 'sola scriptura' people don't. Would that be right ? Sounds as if I have it the wrong way round.
 
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hedrick

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Perhaps, I gave the wrong impression. I do, too. I should imagine inerrancy people understand that the Bible is full of imagery of one kind and another. It is possible that Noah didn't manage to save a male and a female of all the animals, or even one. The 'sola scriptura' people don't. Would that be right ? Sounds as if I have it the wrong way round.
Sola Scriptura is broader than inerrancy. That is, those who believe in inerrancy generally hold sola scriptura, but there are people who hold sola scriptura and not inerrancy.

Yes, inerrancy accepts the existence of parables and other non-literal speech. But as far as I know everyone who holds it thinks that the historical accounts in Genesis are literally true. Including Noah.

Sola scriptura means that Scripture is the final authority on religious and ethical matters. Those who believe in inerrancy think Scripture is the final authority because God superintended it. He didn't exactly dictate it, but he guided the authors in such as a way that we can consider it God's words. And they are convinced that God wouldn't give us historical accounts that are false or contain understandings based on ancient beliefs that are no longer acceptable.

Those who don't believe in inerrancy think that Scripture is the final authority because God revealed himself through history, through interactions with Israel and the earliest church. Obviously the Holy Spirit continues to be with the Church, but the things in Scripture are the only public revelation. (This is an distinction that Catholic tradition also makes.) But because they are accounts of human witnesses to God's activity, they have many of the limitations of other human witnesses.

That means that we understand them with the aid of reason, and many of us think that this understanding is done in the context of the Church, respecting its traditions. The main difference with the Catholic tradition is that we think that these traditional understandings can be wrong, and thus are willing to listen to people who ask us to recheck our understandings with Scripture, wth the view to correcting some of our views.

From a practical point of view, Catholic exegesis has also changed over time, and for many of the same reasons as Protestant exegesis. But Protestants are willing to change theology and ethics when this happens, while at least in principle Catholics aren't. In practice, however, the difference isn't as much as the claims might suggest it should be.
 
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paul becke

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Very interesting Hedrick. Thank you very much for that detailed explanation. The last (Catholi) part, I understand, but will probably have to read the first part again, and ponder on it. Not, I hasten to add, through any deficiency in terms of your of your exposition.

I perhaps gave the wrong impression. I believe in the truth of the Noah story and the other stories, just have doubts about certain little details, which frankly don't seem to me to be pivotally relevant.
 
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mark kennedy

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I saw on our Mass-sheet today a very brief little piece, with the following comments in conclusion :

'It is not necessary for us to understand either the garden of Eden story or Jesus' experience with Satan as being historical. These stories are primarily vehicles to communicate important stories to us.'

According to Paul:

Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).
A just so story hardly explains original sin. Genesis is historical narrative.

The final sentence clearly makes sense. Sola Scriptural types often have a greatly impoverished understanding of the nature of scripture, since they read it in an entirely linear way, failing to realise the profound truth of the saying that God draws straight with crooked lines. In other words, our attitude of humility, when we read the scriptures must subordinate our reading of the text as a starightforward exercise in English comprehension to the certainty that what is being conveyed is, in fact, a supernatutal and therefore extremely mysterious nature, increasingly involving paradoxes, mysteries of the faith, the more profoundly we penetrate the meanings and messages contained in the various texts.

Solo Scriptura is a reaction to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic Church. The reason the Scriptures are foundational, stand alone standards for doctrine, is the authority they represent. The prophetic authority of the Old Testament and the Apostolic authority of the New Testament respectively, is the essence of the issue.

Perhaps the most classic example of this is the text, in which it is related that many peple then stooped folloiwing Jesus, i.e. the passage in which tells his siteners that they must eat his body and drink his blood.

Jesus is comparing himself to the manna (bread) that came down from heaven. As John says, 'in him was life and that life was the light of men', they eat that bread and they are full today and hungry tomorrow. The Samaritan woman at the well (John 4), same message, water is the metaphor in that instance.

The problem with the brief passage I quoted above is that a similar-seeming mindset has, in the past, led to a modern form of gnosticism, and one might say equally argue that it is even less necessary to understand either the Garden of Eden story of Jesus' experience with Satan as being unhistorical.

If, as the author truthfully indicated, is is not necessary to view the story as literally true, that will surely lead to the more worldly intellectuals among the scripture-scholars and theologians to entertain an ever-growing scepticism that takes us 'right off the reservation'. I did hear an elderly seminary lecturer tell our class that, of course, God wouldn't have really walked in the Garden of Eden...

With an historical narrative the literal interpretation is always preferred. In the Genesis account of creation there is no figurative language, there is no basis for a figurative comparison. What you are talking about is allegory, which is a poor way to do an exposition and it can be whatever you want it to be. That's not a solid foundation for doctrinal positions.

Well, now, whatever the ostensible dubieties concerning the literal truth of, for instance, the snake's talking to Eve, there is surely nothing too fanciful about a god who was prepared to be incarnated as a tiny, mortal human-being deigning to walk in the Garden of Eden - presumably assuming a human form, as was the won't of the angels - as Almighy God. That assumption that God would be far too grand to bother about us piffling little mortals to the extent of interacting with individuals, is a common belief of athiests, who show a surprising knowledge (at least, claimed as such) of how Good would or wouldn't act.

Serpent in that passage is more of a proper name:

The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Rev. 12:9)​

So, it is easy to see, rather, that it would only serve as the 'thin edge of the wedge' for many of the more academically-trained Christians, to needlessly dismiss the historicity of other Bible stories, since they have proved so gullible in the matter of science. Their understanding of the philosophy of science, most notably the implications of quantum physics, and now information as the basis of all living things, they have simply had to accept them, wholesale, without being able top offer anything but thoroughly risible, materialist conjectures by way of explanation.

That's the problem with Darwinism as natural history, you have to swallow it whole.

Note that one the putatively basic scientific axioms is said by the OP to be that the earth is 13 1/2 billion years old. Well, it happens that an atheist believer in the latter admitted, as if jokingly, that one of the implications of quantum machanics is that the world we see at any moment migh be very much less than a nano-second old. I believe that is to do with the fact, again, well empirically attested, that when we cease to look at a thing, it ceases to exist. The implications eesmms to be that we each were born, live and die in a little world of our own, integrated and coordinated by an omniscient and omipotent agent (clearly, God).

All we know about the original creation is that it was in the beginning (Gen. 1:1). That could have been billions of years before creation week or minutes, the Scriptures are silent on that. The creation of life in general (Gen. 1:21) and man in particular (Gen. 1:27) is a different matter entirely.
 
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JoeP222w

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Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?

Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe there is enough evidence to support an old universe.

Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?

Again, depends on who you ask.

I don't believe in the Big Bang. Order, precision and design and purpose does not come from a cosmic astronomical explosion.

Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?

Again, depends on who you ask.

I believe the evidence is consistent with the Bible to support the earth's age to be less than 10,000 years old for more convincingly than 4.5 billion years.

Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe Neanderthals existed because I reject the theory of evolution as there is no evidence for Darwinian evolution whatsoever. And there are no Neanderthals today.
 
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JoeP222w

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Do Christians believe the universe has existed for 13 billion years?

Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe there is enough evidence to support an old universe.

Do Christians believe the Big Bang happened, and was the beginning of everything within the universe?

Again, depends on who you ask.

I don't believe in the Big Bang. Order, precision and design and purpose does not come from a cosmic astronomical explosion.

Do Christians believe that earth has existed for 4.5 billion years?

Again, depends on who you ask.

I believe the evidence is consistent with the Bible to support the earth's age to be less than 10,000 years old for more convincingly than 4.5 billion years.

Do Christians believe neanderthals were living on earth 500,000 years ago?

Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe Neanderthals existed because I reject the theory of evolution as there is no evidence for Darwinian evolution whatsoever. And there are no Neanderthals today.
 
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lesliedellow

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Maybe doctrinal positions are not as important as we think, perhaps relationship with God is the intention.

Doctrine defines God's nature, character, requirements and obligations he places upon his human creatures, and generally prevents you from manufacturing an idol to your own liking. That last bit might be why doctrine is so unpopular in some quarters.
 
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mark kennedy

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Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe there is enough evidence to support an old universe.



Again, depends on who you ask.

I don't believe in the Big Bang. Order, precision and design and purpose does not come from a cosmic astronomical explosion.



Again, depends on who you ask.

I believe the evidence is consistent with the Bible to support the earth's age to be less than 10,000 years old for more convincingly than 4.5 billion years.



Depends on who you ask.

I don't believe Neanderthals existed because I reject the theory of evolution as there is no evidence for Darwinian evolution whatsoever. And there are no Neanderthals today.
The Neanderthalls did exist, they even had a cranial capacity ten percent greater then our own. Their fossils are found from the middle east to Spain suggesting a migration pattern compatable with the flood
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Doctrine defines God's nature, character, requirements and obligations he places upon his human creatures, and generally prevents you from manufacturing an idol to your own liking. That last bit might be why doctrine is so unpopular in some quarters.

The quote at the bottom of your posts says it well, "The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer." Doctrine could be likened to boxing God with subjective knowledge in the appearance of wisdom masquerading as objective truth. But anyways, my point is simply that the intention of the bible is not to create a neat little package of objective facts about God and reality, but to bring us into relationship with Him.
 
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lesliedellow

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Doctrine could be likened to boxing God with subjective knowledge in the appearance of wisdom masquerading as objective truth. But anyways, my point is simply that the intention of the bible is not to create a neat little package of objective facts about God and reality, but to bring us into relationship with Him.

No, dogmatic theology is about delineating the doctrines contained in the Bible, even allowing for the limitations of human language.
 
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