Christ's Deity

[Jedi]

As for John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

"He" is not found in the Greek form. It leaves it simply as "I Am." That's the difference. If I were to say "I am Brace (my name)," that's not really the same as simply leaving it as "I am." Like I said before, it seems that Jesus went out of his way to attribute the title "I am" to himself.

 

[fieldsofwind]

drmmjr... notice the big difference....

I am and then the object. Christ claims "I am"... and it is alone. The same as God... Having no beginning... He also claims the titles of Diety in Revelation. He says that He is one with the Father as we *humans* are one in John. He says that when you see Him, you see the Father...

How about this from http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/ho_theos.html


The Title " Ho Theos " is comprised of two Greek words. Ho meaning, " the " and Theos meaning, " God ". The use of the title is only a small part in the scriptural evidence proving that Jesus is God and that the Godhead is Triune in Nature. Obviously, these two words will appear in various places of New Testament. The Gospel writers all used the TITLE, " ho theos " to refer to the One, True God, as did the writers of the Epistles. There are places in the New Testament, where the word ho is followed by the word theos and they are not being used as a title. The context of where the words appear determines if it is meant to be a title, or not. This is a clearly evident fact to all, but those who attempt to deny that Jesus is God, Jehovah, and also those who attempt to deny the Triune Nature of the Godhead, Trinity. They like to point to 2Co 4:4, as proof that ho theos does not signify Almighty God.
"-in whom the (ho) god (theos) of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them. "
Completely ignoring the structure of the verse, they point out that in this verse ho and theos do not mean Almighty God, which is correct. However it is undeniably clear from the grammatical and sentence structure, that they are not being used as a title. The title in this case is "god of this world"; not, "The God." Much the same as Mat 22:32,
"I am the (ho) God (theos) of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
where the titles are, "God of Abraham", "God of Isaac", & "God of Jacob."
That the TITLE " Ho Theos ", refers only to Jehovah God is proved by New Testament. There are a large number of verses, which evidence this fact, A few of them follow.
"And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God (ho theos)! "
John 20:28
Clearly, ho theos, is being used as a title. The verse would make no sense translated as, "My Lord and My the God!" For an in-depth look at this verse and its true meaning visit John 20:28.
Here are a few more of the many verses, which show ho theos used as the title for Almighty God. I won't belabor the point by addressing each verse for I am sure that you can grasp that translating ho theos in these verses as the God would make no sense.
"-You shall worship the Lord your God (ho theos), and Him only you shall serve." "
Mat 4:10
"Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God (ho theos) with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. "
Mat 22:37
"-and you shall love the Lord your God (ho theos) with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. "
Mark 12:30
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (which being translated is, My God, My God (ho theos), why did You forsake Me?)"
Mark 15:34
"And he shall turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God (ho theos)."
Luke 1:16 "
But my God (ho theos) shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
Phi 4:19
"-for also, 'Our God (ho theos)is a consuming fire. "
(Hebrews 12:29)
As I said at the beginning, the application of the title, " ho theos " forms only a very small part of the biblical evidence that Jesus is Jehovah God and that the Godhead is Triune in Nature. The word " the " followed immediately by the word " God(god) " appears only 40 times in Literal Translations of the New Testament. 39 of which refer to the One True God. The only exception is 2Co 4:4. The Greek word " ho " followed immediately by the word " theos " appears upwards of 950 times in the original manuscripts, with the exception of 2Co 4:4, they are used to indicate Jehovah God. The intent & teachings of the God-inspired authors is quite clear. Those who cite 2Co 4:4 as proof that the title does not mean Almighty God are grasping at straws and ignoring the message of Holy Scripture.


All of these things pertain to Christ's Deity... John 8 is simply another example... and yes... when did those other examples of your's claim "I am" alone? Just the words... I am... and nothing following... like I am john... I am a guy... etc...

you know what it says

so did the Jews

take care

FOW

 

[Evangelion]

jedi -

*snip*

He points out scripture, and non-Trinitarians evade.

Would you call thishttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=488422#post488422http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=488422#post488422 an evasion? And after you've read that page, you can continue with the rest of my response to that argument, which is found here.

On Philippians 2, see here. (I can readily expand on this argument, if necessary.)

On Hebrews 9, see here for the first part of my rebuttal, and here for the second.

I’d hardly brush it all off as opinion.

*snip*

In the absence of any lexical support, or any appeal to legitimate scholarship he has no argument. All he has is an unsubstantiated opinion. That is why he has suddenly resorted to a tidal wave of quotes from Trinitarian theologians who support his interpretation by default. (Hardly an objective methodology, is it?)

If you think you can do better, you're welcome to try.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted by evangelion: "In the absence of any lexical support, or any appeal to legitimate scholarship he has no argument. All he has is an unsubstantiated opinion. That is why he has suddenly resorted to a tidal wave of quotes from Trinitarian theologians who support his interpretation by default. (Hardly an objective methodology, is it?)"

You know whats funny evangelion??? I'll tell you... the only things that you have used to debate the word of God presented here are appeals to "greek scholars" whom disagree on points of verbalisms etc... with pieces of God's word that portray Christ as God. However, when confronted with the sources that I found portraying the contrary (which are much more numerous anyhow) you call it... what were the words you used... "hardly objective methodology"... you've got to be kidding

Hold on.

FOW

 

[Evangelion]

I don't think you really know what "objectivity" means.

The bottom line is that I have substantiated and vindicated my arguments by quoting from Trinitarian scholars upon whose work Trinitarians themselves have relied for decades.

That is why my arguments are objective. You may disagree with my Trinitarian scholars, and you may present other Trinitarian scholars who disagree with them - but so what? Insofar as I have a phalanx of legitimate and well-respected Trinitarian academics defending my position, it remains unassailable.

 

[Higher Truth]

E

 

[Evangelion]

You've obviously copy/pasted this from somewhere, without even acknowledging your source. That is called "plagiarism", and it is a bad thing.

Jesus said ‘I AM’ on seven occasions. Each ‘I AM’ is a description Jesus gave of Himself and is recorded in John’s Gospel. The Seven ‘I AM’ sayings help us better understand the divinity of Jesus Christ.

1) BREAD

I am the Bread of life; the one coming to Me will not at all hunger, and the one believing into Me will not thirst, never. John 6:35

2) LIGHT
I am the Light of the world. The one following Me will in no way walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life. John 8:12

3) GATE

I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9

4) GOOD SHEPARD

I am the Good Shepherd! The Good Shepherd lays down His life on behalf of the sheep. John 10:11

5) RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE
I am the Resurrection and the Life. The one believing into Me, though he die, he shall live.. John 11:25

6) WAY, TRUTH, LIFE

I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

7) TRUE VINE

I am the True Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser. John 15:1

The divinity of Jesus Christ is further illustrated in John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM! This means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth.

"EHYH (Alef, Hey Yud Hey) most famously appears in Exodus 3:14, where G-d tells Moses "I AM (EHYH) who I AM (EHYH)" or it might also be translated "I will be who I will be". Tradition says this is the highest form of God's Name(s) - the one that most directly eminates from Him. Giketilla describes EHYH as being the "Upper Name" that eminates from God and YHWH as being the "Lower Name" or as the "Middle Name" with "Adonai" as the "lower Name".

YHWH (Yud, Hey, Waw, Hey) also speaks to us of God's existence, and may be derived from a permutation of "existence" or "He Will Be" or "He who Is". Perhaps this helps explain why EHYH might be considered the form of His Name that more directly eminates from God, since EHYH is first person, while perhaps YHWH may hint at being an attempt to say the same thing as EHYH, but in the second person. Aryeh Kaplan, in his commentary on the Bahir, says that Elohim calls Himself EHYH while we call Him YHWH."

Exodus 3
Moses said to Elohim, When I come to the Israelites and say to them The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, What is His name? what shall I say to them? And Elohim said to Moses, Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. ( Meaning of Heb. uncertain variously translated: I Am That I Am ; I Am Who I Am ; I Will Be What I Will Be ; etc.) He continued, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, Ehyeh () sent me to you. And Elohim said further to Moses, Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: The Lord, ( The name YHWH (traditionally read Adonai the Lord) is here associated with the root hayah to be.) the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, This My appellation for all eternity. Go and assemble the elders of Israel

These two points...

Others: I Am or I Will Be.

[...]

The name YHWH (traditionally read Adonai the Lord) is here associated with the root hayah to be.

...are correct.

The rest of it is a load of tripe.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

So Evangelion. How many places in the Bible do we need to show you where it says Jesus was God to get you to believe that the Bible states Jesus is God? I've seen a few topics now with you and others arguing about Jesus being God and I'm proud of the great examples people have shown you. Or is your mind already decided that there couldn't be a way Jesus was God?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"You've obviously copy/pasted this from somewhere, without even acknowledging your source. "

What if he does what I do and writes articles and then uses it later on since one will run into the same arguments over and over on the internet in these forums and it saves us a lot of typing? If that's not the case yeah I do agree he should state the source.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted by evangelion: "Would you call this an evasion? And after you've read that page, you can continue with the rest of my response to that argument, which is found here."

I think... from skimming through it.... that everything you said here is of no consequence to whether Christ is God or not. Yes... God is one... not three different beings. However, God is not confined to one manifestation, and nor is He confined to remaining in Glory... as the Bible clearly portrays that He did indeed become flesh... see John 1 Hebrews 1 Phil 2...

and yes... the "greek guys" agree with the fact that Christ is God

Hebrews: http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/hebrews1_8.html

John: http://dianedew.com/john1.htm
http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/john1_1.html
http://www.heartlandchapel.org/studies/essentials/trinity/understand.htm

Remember... their use is only because you will not accept the word for what it is... you seem to rely only on the wisdom of men. I trust the word of God

take care

FOW

 

[Higher Truth]

E

 

[Evangelion]

P86 -

So Evangelion. How many places in the Bible do we need to show you where it says Jesus was God to get you to believe that the Bible states Jesus is God?

You're missing the point. I would need much more than a handful of quotes which address Jesus as elohim and theos - and the question that you have to answer, is "Why is this appelation applied to him so rarely?"

I've seen a few topics now with you and others arguing about Jesus being God and I'm proud of the great examples people have shown you.

Really? I'd be thoroughly disappointed.

Or is your mind already decided that there couldn't be a way Jesus was God?

No, my mind is filled with the Word of God - and I have already given a multitude of perfectly legitimate reasons for rejecting the arguments presented thus far.

What you people have to before you do anything else, is show some evidence of a coherent Christological schema which constitutes the foundation of a systematic atonement theology.

Half a cup of proof texts and a tablespoon of groundless assertions won't get you anywhere.

 

[Higher Truth]

If we would all only realize that we know nothing....We would know something......Wisdom of men....foolishness before God

 

[Higher Truth]

Every one acting like Gnostic Greeks. God just laughs

 

[Evangelion]

I'm off to work now. See you guys later.

 

[Higher Truth]

One more thing Evangelion....What is Gods 'true' name?

 

[Evangelion]

God's true name is Yahweh.

And before you ask - no, Jesus is never called Yahweh, no matter what you might think.

 

[Higher Truth]

The experts are currently reviewing 'The Name' of God as translated from the Tetragrammation.[YHVH-YHWH] They are now stating that Yahweh may be incorrect. It is interesting that when Jews come across The Name while reading aloud, they substitute Adonai, or Ha Shem [The Name]. I believe that this is correct.

 

[Higher Truth]

And what did Jesus call God......He called Him Father.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted by evangelion: "You're missing the point. I would need much more than a handful of quotes which address Jesus as elohim and theos - and the question that you have to answer, is "Why is this appelation applied to him so rarely?"

Really?