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Christ's Deity

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by fieldsofwind, Dec 3, 2002.

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  1. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Some posters enjoy overlooking scripture. They love to believe only parts of it etc... Christ is clearly portrayed as the following throughout scripture:

    Christ is God who became flesh. When He became flesh... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9. ---------->God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent. However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love. Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God... (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice) But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.

    So... here are some points for those claiming that Christ is not God who became subservient, and is now glorified again after defeating death. (He is God, just to make sure folks know what I'm saying here)

    First of all... you have verses where Christ possesses the title KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. Yet... God will not give His glory to another, (Isaiah 42:8), so how is it that Christ would have this title if He was not God? Also... the verse referring to Christ as the Lord of Glory... how do you explain that one?

    Secondly... you have the debate over John 1. Some here assume that the Word came into a man... yet that is not what it says. The Bible says that the Word was God. It does not say it was an idea or some metaphysical entity. The Bible clearly, clearly says that the Word was God, period. Then... it says the Word became flesh... not came into someone's flesh. here is a refresher reading for you: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------> (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Thirdly... we have the following verses: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.--------> These verses clearly explain who had to die: The One who made the will (covenant). It is obvious... yet some do not believe... they say... what? What do you say?

    Next we have these verses: (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)-------> Now... what do you guys have to say about this one? Is it a "bad" translation? Nope... God's word is truth... I believe it. If you believe that the new translations can be erroneous, then what is to keep the old ones from being skewed as well? (I'll give you a hint... God!!!) These verses, once again, portray Christ as was explained at the beginning of the post. He is God who became flesh... "today I have become your Father." The Father says of the Son: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever".

    Here's another one: (Colossians 2:9)—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form-----------> Pretty self-explanitory isn't it?

    How about this: (Acts 3:15)--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?) Once again... we have a verse indicating that Christ is the author of life... the creator... etc... like John 1... like Hebrews chapter 1.

    Here you go: (Jude 1:4)-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)-------> What do you guys have to say about this one... isn't God our only Sovereign? Our ONLY Lord it claims... hmmm.... pretty powerful isn't it!

    And finally... (at least for this post)... (Titus 2:13)--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

    Need I say more about this last one? (Purify for HIMSELF... not someone else)

    Believe

    FOW
     
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  2. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Here is some more... How about the fact that Christ was worshiped? God demands that He alone is to be worshiped, yet Christ is worshiped many times.

    Here are some examples: Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    Luke 24:52-- "then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

    Or... how about Thomas calling Christ his God? That or these other verses as well.

    John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    John2:19---"Destroy this temple (meaning KILL THIS BODY), and _I_ will raise it up in three days."

    I will raise it up.

    not, GOD will raise it up, but I will.

    "He is the firstborn of all creation" (Col1:15)---not meaning "first-created-thing", but meaning "power, authority, PRE-EMMINENCE over all creation" (Jacob born after Esau, but BECAME the firstborn)...

    "He is forst-born-from-the-dead" (Col1:17)---not meaning "first-ever-resurrected", but meaning "authority, PRE-EMMINENCE over even death".

    "Destroy this body, and _I_ will raise it up." He had the authority.

    :)
     
  4. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I'd like to add to this, too. All those "Jesus isn't God" people have always failed to respond to these points. :)

    Jesus himself claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, “I will not give my glory to another” (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus also declared, “I am the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17)—precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, “Yahweh is my shepherd” (Psalms 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matthew 25:31f; John 5:27), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, “for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side” (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the “bridegroom” (Matthew 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, “The Lord is my light” (Psalms 27:1), Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

    Another claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58, and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

    The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deuteronomy 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that humans refused worship (Acts 14:15), as did angels (Revelation 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, showing he claimed to be God. A healed leper worshiped him (Matthew 8:2), a group of Canaanite women (Matthew 15:25), the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20), the Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6), all worshiped Jesus without a word of rebuke. The disciples worshiped him after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17). This could only be allowed by a person who seriously considered himself to be God. Not only did Jesus accept this worship due to God alone without rebuking those who gave it, but he even commended those who acknowledged his deity (John 20:29, Matthew 16:17).

    This is also not to mention very clear verses where Jesus is flat out addressed as God in such examples as Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8.
     
  5. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
    JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way-not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

    In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

    Jesus Distinguished From God
    TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

    The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: "For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB) The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions "the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels." (1 Timothy 5:21, RS Common Bible) Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.

    Jesus' words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: "In your own Law it is written, 'The witness of two men is true.' I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

    Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus.

    God's Submissive Servant
    TIME and again, Jesus made statements such as: "The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing." (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38) "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16) Is not the sender superior to the one sent?

    This relationship is evident in Jesus' illustration of the vineyard. He likened God, his Father, to the owner of the vineyard, who traveled abroad and left it in the charge of cultivators, who represented the Jewish clergy. When the owner later sent a slave to get some of the fruit of the vineyard, the cultivators beat the slave and sent him away empty-handed. Then the owner sent a second slave, and later a third, both of whom got the same treatment. Finally, the owner said: "I will send my son [Jesus] the beloved. Likely they will respect this one." But the corrupt cultivators said: "'This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.' With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him." (Luke 20:9-16) Thus Jesus illustrated his own position as one being sent by God to do God's will, just as a father sends a submissive son.

    The followers of Jesus always viewed him as a submissive servant of God, not as God's equal. They prayed to God about "thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, . . . and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:23, 27, 30, RS, Catholic edition.

    God Superior at All Times
    AT THE very outset of Jesus' ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God's voice from heaven said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead.

    Jesus indicated his Father's superiority when he said: "Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor." (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.

    Jesus made his Father's superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: "As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father," that is, God. (Matthew 20:23, JB) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God's to give, and Jesus was not God.

    Jesus' own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to "remove this cup."

    Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, "My God," was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?

    After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: "O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam's sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was "God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death." (Acts 2:24) The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.

    Does Jesus' ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead.

    Jesus Had Limited Knowledge
    WHEN Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.

    Similarly, we read at Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered." Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn-obedience. God never has to obey anyone.

    The difference between what God knows and what Christ knows also existed when Jesus was resurrected to heaven to be with God. Note the first words of the last book of the Bible: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him." (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition) If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead-God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew. But Jesus did not know, for he was not God.

    Jesus Continues Subordinate
    IN HIS prehuman existence, and also when he was on earth, Jesus was subordinate to God. After his resurrection, he continues to be in a subordinate, secondary position.

    Speaking of the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and those with him told the Jewish Sanhedrin: "God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand." (Acts 5:31) Paul said: "God exalted him to a superior position." (Philippians 2:9) If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.

    Paul also said that Christ entered "heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24, JB) If you appear in someone else's presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.

    Similarly, just before being stoned to death, the martyr Stephen "gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) Clearly, he saw two separate individuals-but no holy spirit, no Trinity Godhead.

    In the account at Revelation 4:8 to 5:7, God is shown seated on his heavenly throne, but Jesus is not. He has to approach God to take a scroll from God's right hand. This shows that in heaven Jesus is not God but is separate from him.

    In agreement with the foregoing, the Bulletin of the John Rylands Library in Manchester, England, states: "In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God's heavenly court, just as the angels were-though as God's Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them." Compare Philippians 2:11.

    The Bulletin also says: "What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God."

    In the everlasting future in heaven, Jesus will continue to be a separate, subordinate servant of God. The Bible expresses it this way: "After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven] will hand over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB.
     
  6. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    CONTINUED:

    Jesus Never Claimed to Be God

    THE Bible's position is clear. Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that "the head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3) And this is why Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I." John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.

    The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be. This is being recognized by an increasing number of scholars. As the Rylands Bulletin states: "The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus . . . certainly never believed himself to be God."

    The Bulletin also says of first-century Christians: "When, therefore, they assigned [Jesus] such honorific titles as Christ, Son of man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God, but that he did God's work."

    Thus, even some religious scholars admit that the idea of Jesus' being God opposes the entire testimony of the Bible. There, God is always the superior, and Jesus is the subordinate servant.
     
  7. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Lightbearer, you've done some fine work here, but you have to be careful when addressing the subordination of the Son to the Father.

    Trinitarians belive in functional subordination, but maintain ontological equality.

    And of course, they apply these principles quite arbitrarily... ;)
     
  8. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Next thing you know, people will be saying He was an 'agent' of God. Can anyone here say Gnostic?
     
  9. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    It looks to me like you merely copied and pasted every word of your post. Come now, think for yourself.

    God in his fullest splendor versus God in the flesh? Yep.

    Did you not read anything I wrote? Let me repost a lot of what I’ve posted to adequately and completely counter this claim:

    Jesus himself claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, “I will not give my glory to another” (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus also declared, “I am the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17)—precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, “Yahweh is my shepherd” (Psalms 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matthew 25:31f; John 5:27), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, “for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side” (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the “bridegroom” (Matthew 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, “The Lord is my light” (Psalms 27:1), Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

    Another claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58, and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

    The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deuteronomy 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that humans refused worship (Acts 14:15), as did angels (Revelation 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, showing he claimed to be God. A healed leper worshiped him (Matthew 8:2), a group of Canaanite women (Matthew 15:25), the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20), the Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6), all worshiped Jesus without a word of rebuke. The disciples worshiped him after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17). This could only be allowed by a person who seriously considered himself to be God. Not only did Jesus accept this worship due to God alone without rebuking those who gave it, but he even commended those who acknowledged his deity (John 20:29, Matthew 16:17).


    Where does it say that Jesus was created by God? I must’ve missed that verse somewhere. I’m just waiting for you to pull out that “first born over all creation” bit, since that’s already been addressed by Ben Johnson here.

    When Jesus prayed, it seems that most of it is to be an example to those around him. He bluntly says this in John 11:41-42 when praying, and what do you think the Lord’s prayer was all about? The benefit of others. I also don’t find it hard to believe that it’s like the man part of Jesus communicating with the God part. You have to remember that Jesus is fully God and fully man – he is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9).

    Different titles of the same deity. There isn’t any other deity in the flesh, nor is there any other deity in its fullest splendor.

    “God in this form, God in that form, and his angels.” No problems here.

    Because Jesus is both God and Man – the two make up one dude. You have testimony from both the God in him as well as the man in him. I find it interesting how you neglect to give the next verse (verse 19), which reads: And so they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me, nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” Seems like he’s saying they’re the same. It’s like a Father telling a son who works for him, “If you know who your Father is, you also know who your boss is.”

    Haha, I knew you might try this. This is an age-old argument used a lot by Muslims to attack the deity of Christ, but it fails. As Dr. Norman L. Geisler puts it, “Notice, however, that Jesus did not deny that he was God; he asked the young man to examine the implications of what he said. Jesus was saying, ‘Do you realize what you are saying when you call me good? Are you really saying that I am God?’ Of course, the man did not realize the implications of either his statements or what the law was really saying, so Jesus was forcing him into very uncomfortable dilemma. Either Jesus was good and God, or he was evil and human, for each human is evil and does not deserve eternal life” (Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, 130).

    This is nothing. It’s not the human part of Jesus that’s doing all of these things on its own, but the God in Jesus. He’s merely clarifying that his teaching and authority isn’t human in origin, but divine.

    This doesn’t disprove anything. It’s an analogy that people would understand. If you really think about it, if God were to come down into human form through birth (as Jesus did), then he caused his own pregnancy. What does this mean? He is his own Father, and he is his own Son. Just something to take note of, I suppose.

    Jesus is God in human form, and the very reason God took on this form was to serve. What is a person that serves? A servant. No problem here.

    Scripture doesn’t say that, and so you’re claiming unbiblical speculation to be the truth.

    God in his fullest splendor gave all his power & authority to himself in this new form. It’s like the CEO of a company becoming a Janitor, but keeping all of his authority while being a janitor. Again, Christ is merely clarifying that his authority and teachings are not human in origin, but divine.
     
  10. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
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    He wasn’t God in his fullest form at least. As a human, he isn’t in his fullest splendor, and so it would seem logical that he’s limited (by his own choosing) while in that form.

    Yep. Remember, he’s God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9), and so there are two parts to Jesus: God and man. The man in Jesus doesn’t want to do this but is willing to do whatever the God in him wants, and the God in him wants to go through with it all.

    Again, this is anti-scripture, and merely your own speculation.

    If you’d notice, that was a reference to Psalm 22, which was thought to be a prophecy about the Messiah by Christ’s time. It seems to be that Jesus, while dying on the cross, is trying to get people to realize that he really is the Messiah one last time.

    Not to you, evidently, but as I’ve clearly demonstrated with evidences you’ve failed to respond to, Jesus clearly is God.

    One form to another. The man part trusting the God part.

    Not true. God did not die, but the body of Christ did. If God were truly dead, there would have been no resurrection of the body.

    Your logic fails in light of scripture. As Ben Johnson already pointed out, and you evidently ignored... John 2:19---"Destroy this temple (meaning KILL THIS BODY), and _I_ will raise it up in three days." It even states that Jesus was talking about his body when he said “temple,” in verse 21.

    Now you’ve just shot yourself in the foot. I just showed how Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead, and now you give a verse that says God did it. Gee, the only way this could be true is if they were the same person.

    Oh, but Jesus is so much more. Works and authority that are God’s alone are attributed to Jesus by his disciples. He is said to raise the dead (John 5:21; 11:38-44) and to forgive sins (Acts 5:31; 13:38). He is said to have been the primary agent in creating (John 1:2; Col. 1:16) and sustaining (Col. 1:17) the universe. In light of this, I find it very difficult to believe he’s the same as the prophets.

    Nope, wrong again. Like I said, Jesus is not God in his fullest splendor (aka, he’s limited by his own choosing).

    God never has to obey anyone, so how do you know he learned obedience before this? It wasn’t necessary. Again, this is merely saying that the man part of Christ was obedient to the God part in him.

    Same flawed argument as the last one. You keep forgetting that Jesus has two parts: God and man. He is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9). The God part telling the man part – It’s merely an affirmation that Christ’s teachings and authority were not human in origin, but divine.

    Well then, let’s see how.

    Because he is also man. You keep forgetting that part.

    Only if you’re a mere human, and not both God and man. My fingers are all within my presence, but does that mean my fingers are not a part of me?

    Visions are often times symbolic. Isaiah had a vision of an angel taking a live coal and touching his mouth. If this were literally true, the poor guy wouldn’t be able to speak and be the prophet we all know him to be.

    This may come as a surprise to you, but Revelation is also full of symbolism.

    Not seeing much of a problem here. People confess that Jesus is Lord, and the Father gets the glory. It seems that the most likely way this is possible is that the Father and Jesus are the same (Glorify the Son, you’re also glorifying the Father).

    I’m more concerned with what the Bible says than what the Bulletin says, and the Bible teaches that Jesus is God (see one of the first paragraphs I wrote to you, as well as the rest of the posts here done by others).
     
  11. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

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    This is nothing. It’s the God to Jesus situation in reverse. This refers to the second coming of Christ and the events accompanying it. This includes his handing over the kingdom to the Father (himself in his fullest splendor), following his destroying all dominion, authority and power of the persons and forces who oppose him.

    You really must’ve ignored everything I wrote. Please read, and then post.

    This is another age-old argument. The answer is that, as a man, Jesus subordinated himself to the Father and accepted limitations inherent with humanity. So, as man the Father was greater.

    Again, you’re ignoring a LOT of scripture by saying this.

    Not by any I’ve known. Not by the associate dean of Logsdon school of Theology (who is one of my professors: Dr. Larry McGraw), not by the president of the Baptist General Convention (who is my pastor: Dr. Bob Campbell), not by the Dean of Southwestern Theological Seminary, who also used to be the Dean of Apologetics there (Dr. Norman L. Geisler), and not C.S. Lewis, who was one of the strongest of all modern theologians.

    You really do love that Bulletin, don’t you? You quote that nearly as much as you do scripture, and its assertions are completely against reality.

    I can list people by name who are quite authoritative in the Christian world, half of these I know personally, who adamantly and adequately refute these “scholars” you speak of.
     
  12. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    HT -

    Yes, he was - and his followers understood this perfectly well:
    • Matthew 9:8.
      But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
    • Matthew 21:9-11.
      And the multitudes that went before, and thatfollowed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
      And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
      And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
    • Luke 24:17-10.
      And he [Jesus] said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
      And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
      And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
    • Acts 2:22.
      Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    Jesus the Spirit-empowered man. Jesus the king. Jesus the prophet. Jesus the man approved of God.

    Yes, Jesus was an agent of God.

    Straw man. Gnosticism is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

    I don't think you even know what Gnosticism is. If you did, you wouldn't have bothered to raise it in the first place. :cool:
     
  13. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    I had to smile when I saw this one:

    The irony is just... hilarious. :cool:
     
  14. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

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    Your comment seems to be mere spite. There's no way I could've done the same as LightBearer in copying and pasting, since each comment is a direct response to her comments. It's not general, but specific.
     
  15. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Jedi -

    No, it's just irony. If I'd wanted to be spiteful, you'd know all about it by now.

    I didn't accuse you of copy/pasting.

    ...and it shows little evidence of original thought. :cool:
     
  16. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Once again... lightbearer... you (and others) completely ignore every part of my post. However, I expected that. Your points about Christ being subservient to the Father are correct and are explained in the earlier post. However, you forget to address the other part of the story. That part is the one pertaining to the fact that God did indeed separate Himself. God in His love took on flesh... while God in His glory remained glorified. You cannot and will not be able to bring any scripture to the table that refutes that statement.

    Posted by lightbearer: "JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way-not in power, not in knowledge, not in age. In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God."

    Really? How about these times:

    John 8:58--"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

    John 14:5-10-- Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    John 17:5-- "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

    Revelation 1:7-8-- Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and ho was, and who is to come, the Almighty."-- verse 17-18-- When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

    Revelation 19:3-- He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. (By this we can see that He is the Word spoken of in John... meaning that He indeed was God and became flesh and was not created. In fact... He is addressed by God in Hebrews as the creator... He is spoken of in John "through him all things were made; and without Him nothing was made that has been made.")

    Revelation 19:16-- On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (that is all caps folks... the LORD Almighty. It is also interesting to note that it is impossible for Christ to be some "sub-god" because God declares that before him no god was formed, and nor were there any formed after him. So, take that along with the fact that God said he will not give his glory to another, and you have the LORD OF LORDS in Christ who is God in His love who humbled himself for us.)

    Revelation 22:12-13-- "Behold, I am coming oon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he as done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the last, the Beginning and the End."

    Posted by lightbearer: "TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God."

    Once again... you fail to realize that this fits into everything that was described in the earlier post. God separated himself. God through His love became flesh (meaning that he became subservient to Himself as He remained in glory... meaning that He became the Son... meaning that He prayed to the Father... that the Father was his God... why??---> Because He became man.) You assert that Christ (being God who humbled himself) was always subservient... yet God himself speaks of Christ in Hebrews and calls Him God and the creator of all things. Christ says to the Father in John 17 to glorify him with the glory he had with the Father before the world began. You simply apply only one part of the story and completely neglect the other.

    Posted by lightbearer: "The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: "For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB)"

    Yes... they were, but they were not always. Or, then you must delete Hebrews one, John one, and ignore Christ's petition to God to glorify him with the glory he had with the Father before the world began. Tell me... what do you think about the rest of that passage in Cor.? The part about "through whom all things came" speaking of the Lord Christ.

    Posted by lightbearer: "God's Submissive Servant"

    Everything you post under this title agrees with the earlier post. The fact that God in his love humbled himself and separated from his own glory. He became flesh... became subservient... became sin for us. God in all of his majest cannot become sin, which is why he had to become flesh... in essence... separate himself from his glory. This is Christ.

    Posted by lightbearer: "Jesus indicated his Father's superiority, Jesus' own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position"

    Once again... as described above and in the earlier post, this fits in perfectly with what God did in becoming flesh. The Word was God, the Word became flesh. The Word was described as follows: "We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14)----> States that Christ's glory is that of the One and Only... because He is. (John 1:18)-- No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.----> This also says that Christ is "God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side" Now then... you ask... how can he be God the One and Only and be at the Father's side? God describes it perfectly in John 1, Hebrews 1, and Phil 2... Once accepted, this portrays how Christ can be subservient as portrayed in the Bible, and yet still be God. He, who has now once again been glorified... and in the end.. will once again become all in all. Of course... if you only read the verses indicating his subservience then you have erred greatly.

    This continues on to the rest of your points... In fact... this post explains how Christ was God who became flesh and was subservient as you portrayed. Yet, it also agrees with the numerous, and I mean numerous, verses portraying Christ being God. The fact is... that Christ in the Bible is portrayed as God in his love after He became flesh. However, the Bible also explains how the Christ was not always subservient to the Father, and that they are indeed one thing.

    Now... you have to go take the earlier post, and explain away all of the points raised. You have to take the word and tell us how that Christ can be spoken of as God and yet is not God. How can He be worshiped, when only God is to be worshiped? Didn't God do all of that stuff to purify for himself a people for his own? Yet, the word says that Christ was purifying for HIMSELF a people for HIS own. Just go back... read the post... and believe

    take care

    FOW
     
  17. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    That's the way - just keep on spamming! :cool:
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Here you go lightbearer, edpobre (if he comes back), evangelion, kain, franklin, etc... I will post again... you can ignore it again, but it won't do much for your arguement:

    Christ is God who became flesh. When He became flesh... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9. ---------->God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent. However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love. Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God... (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice) But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.

    So... here are some points for those claiming that Christ is not God who became subservient, and is now glorified again after defeating death. (He is God, just to make sure folks know what I'm saying here)

    First of all... you have verses where Christ possesses the title KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. Yet... God will not give His glory to another... so how is it that Christ would have this title if He was not God? Also... the verse referring to Christ as the Lord of Glory... how do you explain that one?

    Secondly... you have the debate over John 1. Some here assume that the Word came into a man... yet that is not what it says. The Bible says that the Word was God. It does not say it was an idea or some metaphysical entity. The Bible clearly, clearly says that the Word was God, period. Then... it says the Word became flesh... not came into someone's flesh. here is a refresher reading for you: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------> (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Thirdly... we have the following verses: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.--------> These verses clearly explain who had to die: The One who made the will (covenant). It is obvious... yet some do not believe... they say... what? What do you say?

    Next we have these verses: (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)-------> Now... what do you guys have to say about this one? Is it a "bad" translation? Nope... God's word is truth... I believe it. If you believe that the new translations can be erroneous, then what is to keep the old ones from being skewed as well? (I'll give you a hint... God!!!) These verses, once again, portray Christ as was explained at the beginning of the post. He is God who became flesh... "today I have become your Father." The Father says of the Son: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever".

    Here's another one: (Colossians 2:9)—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form-----------> Pretty self-explanitory isn't it?

    How about this: (Acts 3:15)--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?) Once again... we have a verse indicating that Christ is the author of life... the creator... etc... like John 1... like Hebrews chapter 1.

    Here you go: (Jude 1:4)-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)-------> What do you guys have to say about this one... isn't God our only Sovereign? Our ONLY Lord it claims... hmmm.... pretty powerful isn't it!

    And finally... (at least for this post)... (Titus 2:13)--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

    Need I say more about this last one? (Purify for HIMSELF... not someone else)

    Believe

    FOW
     
  19. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Just keep on evading
     
  20. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    There's nothing to evade.

    You haven't even presented a reasonable argument yet. :cool:
     
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