Christmas

[Cliff2]

What are your thoughts on Christmas and as Christians should we have anything to do with it.

 

[Cliff2]

It is Christmas here in Australia now being Dec. 25 and on Hope Channel it has many Christmas programs running.

Maily singing so far, but ones that relate to the birth of Christ.

 

[Dasdream]

Christmas or as I call it "Day of Christ" I think is a great idea, it's about time man did something for Christ. I feel that as Christians we should particapate in worshiping Christ on this day. Doesn't matter what religion we are in, this isn't about religion, yes it was made by a Pegan or something, but doesn't matter, it was made for our Christ, we worship the sameone, be hypacritical if we didn't don't yo think?

 

[Aceybee]

yeah, far as I'm concerned I have a foot in both camps kinda. I don't likehow its a time of intense commercialisation, obligation and guilt, and how so many familys have so much trouble having the christmas we are told we should have. I never much liked Santa Claus and I think the world has an entire mythology around it that has little to do with Christ.
Having said that, I love Christmas carols, the idea, how I get to see family and friends. And hey I don't think I should have to have a reason to celebrate my Jesus.
And its a time for us to tell his story loud and clear and have people listen.. I'm not complaining

 

[Dathen]

There are many threads with this topic, and they all are arguments that get locked. So this is a warning. Let's not argue this Christ-mas. Everone have a merry christmas!!!

 

[Dasdream]

I belive the question was should "Christians" particapate in the holiday not what we think of the holiday. Dathen with all due respect we don't need anymore "warnings" from you, leave that for the mods.

 

[Sophia7]

This is a legitimate topic to discuss, but it does often lead to heated arugments. The thread will not be locked unless it gets out of hand and degenerates into personal attacks and flaming.

 

[Sophia7]

Personally, I don't believe that there's anything wrong with celebrating Jesus' birth and the reason that He came to earth for us even though we know that it didn't really happen on Dec. 25. Many people are more interested in going to church and hearing about Jesus at Christmas time than they are during the rest of the year (except perhaps at Easter), so I think that we should take advantage of the opportunity to reach them for Christ. As a family, we do try to avoid most of the commercialized aspects of Christmas, though.

 

[Jon0388g]

Personally, I don't believe that there's anything wrong with celebrating Jesus' birth and the reason that He came to earth for us even though we know that it didn't really happen on Dec. 25. Many people are more interested in going to church and hearing about Jesus at Christmas time than they are during the rest of the year (except perhaps at Easter), so I think that we should take advantage of the opportunity to reach them for Christ. As a family, we do try to avoid most of the commercialized aspects of Christmas, though.

That's true, but I'm still a bit in both camps. There are so many positive things that come out of Christmas, and I am sure that hearts are won for Christ worldwide at this time of year. Charity, family, friends, peace, all things that naturally come out of it.

Although.....I always think that we are slightly hypocritical in being so judgemental of other denominations in particular for being so rational of things like the Sunday-worship, when we clearly choose to rationalise Christmas. They claim that it does not matter what day you worship Christ, whereas we stress the importance of the Sabbath. But in the same breath, we claim that it should not matter that we celebrate Christ's birth on Dec. 25, even though it so blatantly has pagan roots. The most deadly deceit is that which most closely resembles truth, and both seem to be exact cases of such. Are we not guilty of the same ignorance?

I still am not sure. Its a tough topic.

Jon

 

[Sophia7]

That's true, but I'm still a bit in both camps. There are so many positive things that come out of Christmas, and I am sure that hearts are won for Christ worldwide at this time of year. Charity, family, friends, peace, all things that naturally come out of it.

Although.....I always think that we are slightly hypocritical in being so judgemental of other denominations in particular for being so rational of things like the Sunday-worship, when we clearly choose to rationalise Christmas. They claim that it does not matter what day you worship Christ, whereas we stress the importance of the Sabbath. But in the same breath, we claim that it should not matter that we celebrate Christ's birth on Dec. 25, even though it so blatantly has pagan roots. The most deadly deceit is that which most closely resembles truth, and both seem to be exact cases of such. Are we not guilty of the same ignorance?

I still am not sure. Its a tough topic.

Jon

I don't believe that there is anything wrong with celebrating Jesus' birth, especially since the angels and shepherds and wise men all did.

There are also different historical perspectives on the pagan roots of Christmas. Some argue that pagans adopted Dec. 25 as a religious festival in the third century, after Christians were already celebrating on that date (having miscalculated the date of Jesus' birth), in order to undermine Christianity. Pagans themselves (even neo-pagans) claim that Christmas has pagan origins; however, they also claim that many Christian beliefs, such as the concept of a god dying and rising again, came from paganism. I don't know if you've spent any time in General Apologetics (I don't go there too often), but I've come across many non-Christians there who think that the Bible itself is only a collection of myths just like the myths of other ancient cultures, with no basis in historical fact or truth but only imitations of earlier stories and ideas that superstitious peoples had come up with to explain their world. So I guess I don't put too much stock in what pagans and other non-Christians claim that we incorporated into our religion from theirs. The fact that there are some similarities does not necessarily mean that one belief system and its practices derived from another.

As far as the arguments that people often make about the evils of decorating our houses with Christmas trees or other greenery, for one thing, the text they often cite (from Jer. 10) refers to carving a tree with a chisel and fashioning it into an idol. This is not what a Christian does in decorating a Christmas tree. Also, evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe, etc., are neither pagan nor Christian. They are just things--all things that God has created. The fact that pagans misuse created things and turn them into false worship aids or objects of worship does not render them inherently evil. I don't see anything wrong with using these things that God has made as decorations. It would be wrong if we used them as idols.

Yes, it's a tough topic and one that the Bible doesn't specifically address. I guess I would see this as perhaps one of the disputable matters about which we shouldn't pass judgment on each other. If others are convicted that they shouldn't celebrate Christmas, that's fine with me, but I personally don't have a problem with putting a special emphasis on Jesus' birth at the time when the world is most likely to think about it.

 

[Dathen]

Well sorry for helping this thread to stay open!!!!!! I would expect Dasdream that a warning would be helpful, not offensive!!

 

[reddogs]

Check it out for yourself:

Mary-Queen of Heaven, Goddess & Saint is celebrated around the world as the Divine Feminine by millions of people, many of them Catholics.

. . So great was devotion to the Goddess that She was resurrected in the hearts of the people by a new Goddess, Mary, Mother of Jesus. Those who are devoted to Mary, honor Her the Blessed Virgin Mary, the ever patient mother, and protectress of humanity.

The Madona and child have been revered since the earliest times. Isis and Her son Horus, Mary and Her son Jesus, Demeter and Her daughter Kore, all have attracted a devout following. Long before Isis, and long before Mary or Demeter, pagans fashioned Madonna and child icons and placed them in sacred shrines. Many believe that with the rise of Christianity and papal power, the Goddess would slowly disappear from western culture and fade into the Mists of Avalon . .

But they didnt, the names and sometimes the images of the Madonna and child have changed, but the location of these shrines, and the wide devotion to them has remained constant.She is honored by many as Isis, Gaia, Kali, Diana, Sheela Na Gig, and the Ancient Primal Earth-Mother Goddess.

For many European Christians, the blending of their ancient Goddesses with the Blessed Virgin Mary has been a well accepted fact of their faith for centuries, there is no conflict. The Madonna, be She called Isis, or Mary, or Kali, or Diana, embodies all the aspects of Female Divinity for many millions of people.

Easter and its ties to Mary/Isis/Ishtar/Beltis

The name Easter, like the names of the days of the week, is a survival from the old Teutonic mythology. According to Bede [an eighth century monk] it is derived from Oestre, or Ostdra, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month answering to our April, and called Eoster-monath, was dedicated. -- "Easter", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed.

What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people of Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments is Ishtar." -- The Two Babylons, Hislop, p. 103

Many ancient cultures share this legend of Semiramus and Nimrod: called by such names as Ishtar and Tammuz in Babylon; Isis and Osiris in Egypt; Astarte and Bel in Syria; Aphrodite, Cybele, or Venus, and Attis or Adonis in Greece and Rome; and Oestre (the dawn goddess) in Britain.

They considered her "the Mother of Gods", and often depicted her either as a fertility symbol, or as a madonna figure.

Many pre-christian Europeans thought that their sun gods and fertility goddesses died at the winter solstice and regained life again at the spring equinox.

The concept of death and rebirth plays a large role in these legends. e.g. Cybele mourned two days for Attis, then celebrated his return on the third day, while Venus mourned two days for Adonis until he ascended to heaven on the third day.

In the Babylonian myth, Tammuz was killed by a wild boar, and his wife Ishtar dedicated 40 days to weeping and fasting.

Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. -- Ezekiel 8:14

Sunrise Services
Even in ancient times, astrologers knew when the Vernal equinox occurred, and their followers would celebrate the arrival of spring at the first sunrise of the season.

And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. -- Ezekiel 8:16

Hot Cross Buns
The cross symbol comes from the letter T, for Tammuz, husband of Ishtar, the queen of heaven.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, ... -- Jeremiah 7:18

It is quite probable that it has a far older and more interesting origin, as is suggested by an inquiry into the origin of hot cross buns. These cakes, which are now solely associated with the Christian Good Friday, are traceable to the remotest period of pagan history. Cakes were offered by ancient Egyptians to their moon goddess; and these had imprinted on them a pair of horns, symbolic of the ox at the sacrifice of which they were offered on the altar, or of the horned moon goddess, the equivalent of Ishtar of the Assyro-Babylonians. The Greeks offered such sacred cakes to Astarte and other divinities. This cake they called bous (ox), in allusion to the ox-symbol marked on it, and from the accusative boun it is suggested that the word 'bun' is derived. Like the Greeks, the Romans eat cross-bread at public sacrifices, such bread being usually purchased at the doors of the temple and taken in with them, a custom alluded to by St. Paul in I Cor. x.28. At Herculaneum two small loaves about 5 in. in diameter, and plainly marked with a cross, were found. In the Old Testament are references made in Jer. vii.18-xliv.19, to such sacred bread being offered to the moon goddess. The cross-bread was eaten by the pagan Saxons in honor of Eoster, their goddess of light. The Mexicans and Peruvians are shown to have had a similar custom. The custom, in fact, was practically universal, ... -- "Bun", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed.

Easter Eggs
Ancient Babylonians believed that Ishtar hatched from an egg that fell from heaven.

... the egg as a symbol of fertility and of renewed life goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Persians, who had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival. -- "Easter", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed.

Rabbits
Because of its short reproductive cycle and large litters, people have long regarded the rabbit (or hare) as a symbol of fertility.

Hares were the sacrificial victims of the goddess Eostre, and in Teutonic myth, were believed to lay easter eggs.

Ham
In the Babylonian myth, Tammuz was killed by a wild boar. Pre-christian Europeans considered eating ham a symbol of luck. Eating pork also expresses a blatant rejection of God's laws regarding clean and unclean meats.

The myth of Dumuzi and Inanna :

This is the myth where Inanna descends into the underworld (where the dead are).But it is known now as the myth of 'Dumuzi and Inanna' in its complete form. Dumuzi is the Sumerian form of the more familiar name Tammuz, and Inanna is the Sumerian equivalent of semitic Ishtar. So, Ishtar is Inanna, the queen of heaven, (in other words she is the queen of the sky).She is also the Babylonian "queen of heaven," Semeramis (also worshipped and known as Ishtar), the wife of Nimrod and mother of Tammuz, was the origination of the Easter spring/fertility goddess. Aphrodite of the Greeks, Juno of the Latins, Isis of the Egyptians, Astarte of the Moabites, Ashtoreth of the Zidonians & Israelites, Ashtar of the Assyrians, and Eostre of the early Anglo-Saxons, just to name a few, all were localized versions of the Babylonian Semeramis/Ishtar, who we have in modern form as Easter.

"Easter" and the related spring/fertility festivals built around it are nothing new.

All these false goddesses (although more correctly "goddess" singular, as these names are all variations of the same deity) originate from the Babylonian myth of Semeramis (Ishtar). As the myth goes, the wife of Nimrod, Ishtar, was born as such: a giant egg fell magically from heaven and landed in the Euphrates river. The fish rolled the egg to shore, where the birds hatched it, and out came our friendly fertility fallacy, Ishtar, whom the Babylonians (and indeed hundreds of other cultures throughout history) worshipped as the queen of heaven, the goddess of spring and fertility.

A common theme among all versions of the Ishtar/Easter myth is that of sexuality. Babylonians worshipped Ishtar as the goddess of fertility and sexual impulse, and throughout these millennia of Easter celebrations, there has often been sexuality involved. In Hasting’s Ency. On Religious Ethics, p. 117, we read of these ancient "easters":

A spring feast was celebrated. These occasions were marked with great sexual license.

Just as it was for the Lent ritual, the Catholic church of the 4th and 5th centuries adopted the various pagan festivals and slapped a Christian label on it ("Jesus resurrected on this day!") so as to convert the massive pagan cultures to the Catholic faith. Fortunately, the excessively negative light in which Catholics (indeed most Christians today) portray sex has pretty much eliminated any immoral sexuality associated with Easter. That said, we still keep remnants of the ancients, with rabbits, eggs, and a spring festival all symbolizing fertility.

Even to this day, despite the supposed Christian holiness and purity of Christ in us, we've been unable to shake the very paganism that angered God enough to scatter Israel and punish them for more than 2 millennia. If Christians are part of Israel (as Paul argues in the New Testament), are we not also the people of God? Are we not angering him with the same festivals he hated in Solomon's day? If Israel's paganism angered God then, does ours not anger Him now?

 

[reddogs]

That's true, but I'm still a bit in both camps. There are so many positive things that come out of Christmas, and I am sure that hearts are won for Christ worldwide at this time of year. Charity, family, friends, peace, all things that naturally come out of it.

Although.....I always think that we are slightly hypocritical in being so judgemental of other denominations in particular for being so rational of things like the Sunday-worship, when we clearly choose to rationalise Christmas. They claim that it does not matter what day you worship Christ, whereas we stress the importance of the Sabbath. But in the same breath, we claim that it should not matter that we celebrate Christ's birth on Dec. 25, even though it so blatantly has pagan roots. The most deadly deceit is that which most closely resembles truth, and both seem to be exact cases of such. Are we not guilty of the same ignorance?

I still am not sure. Its a tough topic.

Jon

Well here is what Doc posted.......

'One spring not many years following Nimrod's death, the voluptuous Semiramis was found to be with child. Calling the scribes of Babylon together, she issued a most remarkable press release. Nimrod had impregnated her, she claimed, through the lively rays of the sun. As the offspring of the sun-god, the anticipated child would itself lay claim to deity, and by proxy, she, Semiramis, would henceforth be the "mother of god." Such blasphemy seems transparent in our day, but to a nation that had departed from the living God the absurd became commonplace. The superstition of the masses was fertile ground for Satan's deceptive schemes and like noxious weeds, they flourished.

On December 25 Tammuz, the child of the sun-god, was born. His birth was hailed as a great miracle. Falling as it did during the slowly lengthening days immediately after the winter solstice, it was also seen as an omen of the sun's rebirth and was heralded by tumultuous rejoicing. December 25 was thereafter observed as the birthday of the son of the sun-god, and became a yearly feast day throughout the kingdom. 'http://www.christianforums.com/t4711178/

 

[stinsonmarri]

First of all where is the date of YASHUA'S birth in the Bible. Secondly where does the Bible states that we should celebrate HIS birth. If it is not there it is a lie and Catholic questions and answers state they made all of the festivals and change from keeping ELOHIM'S Feast Days. It is not an argument to me especially when I read Jer 10:1-6.

Happpy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

First of all where is the date of YASHUA'S birth in the Bible. Secondly where does the Bible states that we should celebrate HIS birth. If it is not there it is a lie and Catholic questions and answers state they made all of the festivals and change from keeping ELOHIM'S Feast Days. It is not an argument to me especially when I read Jer 10:1-6.

Happpy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

There are a lot of things in life people celebrate; and they are not all in the Bible. Why is it wrong to celebrate something good,like Jesus, and His birth? Mind you; that is a theme we could perhaps celebrate all year long.

 

[Castaway57]

Even to this day, despite the supposed Christian holiness and purity of Christ in us, we've been unable to shake the very paganism that angered God enough to scatter Israel and punish them for more than 2 millennia. If Christians are part of Israel (as Paul argues in the New Testament), are we not also the people of God? Are we not angering him with the same festivals he hated in Solomon's day? If Israel's paganism angered God then, does ours not anger Him now?

When one looks at how some people do Christmas; yes, it is paganism, but with others; no, it is not. There is a line that we should not cross in judging people too harshly about this subject. I wonder, have you read what Ellen White has written about this subject? She makes many good points from the Bible about it. I will post some here if you are interested.

 

[Castaway57]

And yes; Ellen White did have a Christmas tree.

 

[Castaway57]

First of all where is the date of YASHUA'S birth in the Bible. Secondly where does the Bible states that we should celebrate HIS birth. If it is not there it is a lie and Catholic questions and answers state they made all of the festivals and change from keeping ELOHIM'S Feast Days. It is not an argument to me especially when I read Jer 10:1-6. Happpy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

Pastor Doug Batchelor puts it like this:

Should We Celebrate Christmas?

Most Christians around the globe observe December 25 as a holiday to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ. (Of course, even many non-Christians now celebrate this festival with gift giving and social gatherings.) Yet the exact date of Jesus’ birth is unknown, and as the origins of Christmas understood by most people are being called into question, some are beginning to wonder if Christians should participate in the many customs surrounding this most popular holiday in the Western world?

First, it is clear that the Bible does not contain a command to keep Christmas as a sacred day, such as with the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. There is no Scripture saying, “Thou shalt keep the 25th of December holy.” While it might be a public holiday, it is not a biblical holy day.

What about the origins of Christmas? Concerns about pagan elements in this holiday are nothing new. Controversies over Christmas go back hundreds of years. The Puritans in England actually led the English Parliament to ban Christmas for a period of time as a “popish festival with no biblical justification” and a time of wasteful and immoral behavior. Even in Colonial America there was a time (1659) when Christmas was outlawed. More recently, secular elements of society have faced off with religious groups over nativity scenes and crosses on public property.

The Bible certainly highlights the birth of Christ (Luke 3:7). It not only describes the glorious announcement of the Messiah’s birth (v. 13) but also tells of shepherds coming to worship the newborn child (v. 16). These humble worshippers were not quiet about what they saw either (v. 17). Furthermore, there is a record of wise men from the east bringing gifts to Jesus—though this likely occurred when Jesus was a toddler (Matthew 2:11). If people recognized the birth of Christ through worship and bringing gifts, perhaps there is something we can learn from their examples.

Aside from its pagan elements, most people understand that Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. But in practice, people spend more time in December cruising shopping malls than studying the life of the Savior. Frosty the Snowman and Rudolf the Red-nosed Reindeer compete with wise men and shepherds for our attention. During all the bustle between “Black Friday” and Christmas Eve, materialism tends to overshadow the simple stable.

But what if Christians spent more time witnessing for Christ at Christmas or purchasing and sharing Christians resources to point people to Jesus? What would happen if more families dedicated time and money to serve the poor and advance the gospel through short-term mission service? How would our churches be strengthened if, during this holiday time, believers explored the prophecies of Christ’s first advent as well as His second advent? Perhaps our concerns about Christmas should have less to do with its pagan origins and more with its current practice.

Many people might deny they “worship” this day as holy, but what is worship? Worship isn’t measured by simply attending a Christmas concert or midnight mass. It describes how we live our lives and spend our means. As Paul said, "He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord" (Romans 14:6), and, “Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Should We Celebrate Christmas? > Amazing Facts

What he says here makes a lot of sense to me

 

[Spiritlight]

As A Christian it probably is about 10% relevant to christianity anymore so I give it a small mount of interest.

As an environmentalist i avoid it as much aas i can because of its excessiveness.



As a perpetuated untruth (partly)I have always struggled with what I say to kids.


I do struggle with the insincerity of pretending to like the people you dont get on well with in front of everyone else on christmas day and having it done to me. Dont get me wrong I like everyone but I watch people who hate each other all year pretend that everything is ok on christmas Day.

As a vegetarian I dislike roast dinners..

As a kid I loved it all.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Pastor Doug Batchelor puts it like this:What he says here makes a lot of sense to me

Wow so because Doug Batchelor say it ok and EGW had a tree it is fine!

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Eze 3:20, 21 ​

If it is pagan then it is a sin you can not observe something that is pagan. You continue want to hold on to these lies that break the Commands of ELOHIM and say you love HIM? Listen to the words of the Catholic Church these same questions and answers we give but do not listen to them ourselves. This is what I mean by being in the box!

Our Sunday Visitor (February 5, 1950): Practically everything Protestants regard as essential or important they have received from the Catholic Church... The Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible and observing the Sunday, in keeping Christmas and Easter, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.​

Cardinal John Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (London: Basil Montague Pickering, 1878): 373: The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons…are all of pagan origin and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. ​

Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity (New York: Putnam’s Sons, 1928): 145: The Church made a sacred day of Sunday…largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; (As the Sabbath was the weekly Feast Day of YAHWEH) for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance. ​

Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?

A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore THEY FONDLY CONTRADICT THEMSELVES, BY KEEPING SUNDAY STRICTLY, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church." Henry Tubervill, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, 1833, page 58. ​

I am praying for my SDA people as well as others on this terrible subject,
stinsonmarri