Christmas

[Castaway57]

Wow so because Doug Batchelor say it ok and EGW had a tree it is fine!

I am praying for my SDA people as well as others on this terrible subject,
stinsonmarri

Well; I didn't actually say it this way. I presented some thoughts from two others on the subject. Doug presented some relevant scriptures to this subject; and you have not yet addressed any of those - you keep saying that all you need is the Bible so maybe you could refrain from use of all these other books which are not Bible, and discuss this from a Bible point of view?

All I am saying here is that Doug and Ellen White have done this.

 

[Fencepost]

The Christmas Tree

As I stood gazing at the Christmas tree I placed a present down.

Then I remembered my Savior who was hung on a tree.

Therefore I will make a joyful sound.

For it is truly better to give than to recieve.

Isn't that the reason why we all believe.

By: Fencepost the Evangelist

 

[E.T.Elijah]

I don't normally do Christmas in the sense of Santa and the tree and decorations. I use it as a time to share the gospel though. It is a time of year when most people at least in theory give honor to Jesus birth. They may not think much about God during the rest of the year but at least during this time they acknowledge that Jesus was real. So I share him with them. My children know that we do not do the Satan Claus. Each year I let them pick out 1 thing that they really wanted. Then they had to pick out something for someone their own age that we would donate. That way it could be used for teaching about helping those that are less fortunate than us. We do not celebrate Dec. 25th. To them it is just another day. We do get together this time of year to spend with our extended families. Our houehold is the only not to celebrate Christmas. Our families tend to buy us gifts, so we in turn do recipricate. But our gifts are usually something that is Christ related and personal for each person. I think it is possible to avoid all the "pagan" aspects of the holiday and still use it as a chance to show others we love them and hopefully turn others hearts to Jesus.

 

[Castaway57]

The Christmas Tree

As I stood gazing at the Christmas tree I placed a present down.

Then I remembered my Savior who was hung on a tree.

Therefore I will make a joyful sound.

For it is truly better to give than to recieve.

Isn't that the reason why we all believe.

By: Fencepost the Evangelist

Fencepost; that is a great poem; and it reflects an attitude about Christmas that is Christ-centered. Thankyou for sharing this. I am a poet of sorts too, and I really enjoyed it.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Castaway:​

Just remember everything that glitter is not gold. Remember when ELOHIM told Moses to speak to the rock and instead he struck it? YAHWEH did not excuse him for what he did wrong and he paid the penalty of death and never enters the promise land. There are many stories of people who did more than what was required by ELOHIM thinking it is alright but it isn't. Even when my parents and I am sure yours as well said for us not to do something and we did it saying the reason we did it was something good had come out of the results. My parents were not happy because it was not what they said for me to do. You cannot make a lie righteous because it is a lie. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible to celebrate YAHSHUA'S birth neither was a date given. However, we know that HE was born in the Spring during the Feast of Unleavened Bread and not in the winter during the pagan celebrated winter solace. It dishonored HIM when we try to make something holy that is not holy. Honor HIS death that is what HE said to remember by taking the SUPPER and it should be take only once a year in place of the passover supper. Satan rejoices over all who profane the standards of ELOHIM by following and accepting the path of the pagans.

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway:​

Just remember everything that glitter is not gold. Remember when ELOHIM told Moses to speak to the rock and instead he struck it? YAHWEH did not excuse him for what he did wrong and he paid the penalty of death and never enters the promise land. There are many stories of people who did more than what was required by ELOHIM thinking it is alright but it isn't. Even when my parents and I am sure yours as well said for us not to do something and we did it saying the reason we did it was something good had come out of the results. My parents were not happy because it was not what they said for me to do. You cannot make a lie righteous because it is a lie. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible to celebrate YAHSHUA'S birth neither was a date given. However, we know that HE was born in the Spring during the Feast of Unleavened Bread and not in the winter during the pagan celebrated winter solace. It dishonored HIM when we try to make something holy that is not holy. Honor HIS death that is what HE said to remember by taking the SUPPER and it should be take only once a year in place of the passover supper. Satan rejoices over all who profane the standards of ELOHIM by following and accepting the path of the pagans.

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

It is profaning the scriptures to believe that Jer 10 is referring to what we call today a "Christmas tree." You are totally off-base with this stuff you say about Christmas.

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway:​

Just remember everything that glitter is not gold. Remember when ELOHIM told Moses to speak to the rock and instead he struck it? YAHWEH did not excuse him for what he did wrong and he paid the penalty of death and never enters the promise land.

Yes; but Moses is still in heaven; according to the Bible.

Ellen White puts this whole thing about Christmas into a balanced, Biblical perspective that I believe is quite applicable for today:

We are now nearing the close of another year, and shall we not make these festal days opportunities in which to bring to God our offerings? I cannot say sacrifices, for we shall only be rendering to God that which is His already, and which He has only entrusted to us till He shall call for it. God would be well pleased if on Christmas each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. Letters of inquiry have come to us asking, Shall we have a Christmas tree? Will it not be like the world? We answer, You can make it like the world if you have a disposition to do so, or you can make it as unlike the world as possible. There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches; but the sin lies in the motive which prompts the actions and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree.

The tree may be as tall and its branches as wide as shall best suit the occasion; but let its boughs be laden with the golden and silver fruit of your beneficence, and present this to Him as your Christmas gift. Let your donations be sanctified by prayer and let the fruit upon this consecrated tree be applied towards removing the debts from our houses of worship at Battle Creek, Michigan, and Oakland, California.

A word to the wise is sufficient.--Review and Herald, December 11, 1879.

 

[Castaway57]

here are some more statements that Ellen White wrote about Christmas. I believe she outlines some very important scriptural principles to be applied even today, and not just for Christmas.

On Christmas, so soon to come, let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath school scholars is a sin; for it may be made a great blessing. Keep before their minds benevolent objects. In no case should mere amusement be the object of these gatherings. While there may be some who will turn these occasions into seasons of careless levity, and whose minds will not receive the divine impress, to other minds and characters these seasons will be highly beneficial. I am fully satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised for many gatherings that demoralize.

Christmas is coming. May you all have wisdom to make it a precious season. Let the older church members unite, heart and soul, with their children in their innocent amusement and recreation, in devising ways and means to show true respect to Jesus by bringing to Him gifts and offerings. Let everyone remember the claims of God. His cause cannot go forward without your aid. Let the gifts you have usually bestowed upon one another be placed in the Lord's treasury. . . . In every church let your smaller offerings be placed upon your Christmas tree. Let the precious emblem "evergreen" suggest the holy work of God and His beneficence to us; and the loving heart-work will be to save other souls who are in darkness. Let your works be in accordance with your faith. . . .

Every tree in Satan's garden hangs laden with the fruits of vanity, pride, self-importance, evil desire, extravagance--all poisoned fruit, but very gratifying to the carnal heart. Let the several churches present to God Christmas trees in every church, and then let them hang thereon the fruits of beneficence and gratitude--offerings coming from willing hearts and hands, fruits that God will accept as an expression of our faith and our great love to Him for the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. Let the evergreen be laden with fruit, rich and pure and holy, acceptable to God. Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve?

Christmas Gifts

Thousands of dollars (in 1884) are needlessly spent every year in gifts to each other. That is means lost to God, lost to His cause. It pleases the vanity, encourages pride, creates all kinds of dissatisfaction, murmuring, and complaints, because perhaps the gifts are not just what was desired, not of the high value wanted or expected.

Christmas is not observed as its name implies it should be. Man has forsaken God in almost everything, and has turned the attention to self. He has left the pure springs of living waters which flow from the throne of God, and hewn out to himself broken cisterns which can hold no water. God gave man a probation that he might be fitted for heaven. He was to look upward to God, who was to be the soul's adoration, but talent, skill, and inventive powers are all exercised to make self the supreme object of attention. Man has withdrawn his gaze from Deity, and fastened his eyes upon the finite, the earthly, the corruptible.

Satan is in this work to put God out of the mind and interpose the world and self that the eye shall not be single to the glory of God. Satan captivates and ensnares the mind. His infernal wisdom is continually exercised to mold and fashion the material with which he has to deal, to make God the least and the last object of devotion.

Turn the Current Heavenward

The various amusements of society have been the ruin of thousands who, but for these devices of Satan, might be servants of the living God. There are wrecks of character seen everywhere who have been destroyed by gilded, fashionable pleasure; and still the work is going forward. Thousands more will go to ruin who will not open their eyes to see and sense the fact that, although they are professed Christians, they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. . . .

Now, brethren, let us on Christmas make special efforts to come before the Lord with gifts and grateful offerings for the gift of Jesus Christ as a Redeemer to the world. Let nothing now be spent needlessly, but let every penny that can be spared be put out to the exchangers. Satan has had his way in managing these occasions to suit himself. Now let us turn the current heavenward instead of earthward. Let us show by our offerings that we appreciate the self-denial and sacrifice of Christ in our behalf. Let God be brought to remembrance by every child and parent; and let the offerings, both small and large, be brought to the storehouse of God.

You that have means, who have been in the habit of making donations to your relatives and friends until you are at a loss to know what to invent that will be new and interesting to them, seek to put your ingenuity to the test, as well as your influence, to see how much means you may gather to advance the work of the Lord. Let your skill and your capacities be employed to make the coming Christmas one of intense interest, paying your addresses to the God of heaven in willing, grateful offerings. Follow no longer the world's customs. Make a break here, and see if this Christmas cannot show thousands of dollars flowing into the treasury, that God's storehouse may not be empty.

You may not be recompensed on earth, but you will be rewarded in the future life, and that abundantly. let those who have so long planned for self now begin to plan for the cause of God, and you will certainly have increased wisdom. Let the conscience be enlightened, and the love of truth and of Christ take the place of idolatrous thoughts and love of self.

Will you not arise, my Christian brethren and sisters, and gird yourselves for duty in the fear of God, so arranging this matter that it shall not be dry and uninteresting, but full of innocent enjoyment that shall bear the signet of Heaven? I know the poorer class will respond to these suggestions. The most wealthy should also show an interest and bestow their gifts and offerings proportionate to the means with which God has entrusted them. Let there be recorded in the heavenly books such a Christmas as has never yet been seen, because of the donations which shall be given for the sustaining of the work of God and the upbuilding of His kingdom.[SIZE=-1]--Review and Herald, December 9, 1884. (Portion in The Adventist Home , pp. 477-483).[/SIZE]

 

[stinsonmarri]

It is profaning the scriptures to believe that Jer 10 is referring to what we call today a "Christmas tree." You are totally off-base with this stuff you say about Christmas.

Castaway:

When I truly think that we are able to talk to each kindly you change up on me. Yes Jer 10 is referring to the Christmas tree because it has alway been celebrated by pagans. What I do not understand how you made this to be something good because this is what the very two texts of the chapter states:

Hear ye the word which YAHWEH speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith YAHWEH, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. Jer 10:1, 2 ​

Her priests have violated MY Law, and have profaned MINE Holy Things: they have put no difference between the Holy and Profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from MY Sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Eze 22: And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, "Thus saith YAHWEH ELOHIM, when YAHWEH hath not Spoken. Eze 22:26, 28​

Because that, when they knew ELOHIM, they glorified him not as ELOHIM, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:21

Here the Scripture in Jer 10 clearly says do not go the way of the Heathens before YAHWEH discribes what they do, yet you want to follow what YAHWEH said don't do. I cannot fathom you rationality on this subject.

When I asked you was EGW ELOHIM you said no and that is not what you meant. You still keep saying what she said but no where in any of her writings does she say that she was told by ELOHIM! Again this was her view coming out of the Methodist Church. Many things she viewed wrong base on her knowledge at the time. Just for the record so all can see how many times she wrote about the Christmas tree:

Christmas tree: The Ellen White Writings Topical Index (3 occurrences in 3 articles); Christmas tree AH 482-3; Miscellaneous PP 525-9; specified, required of Israelites AA 336-7 on Christmas tree, appropriate in church AH 482 parents; Sabbath school, Sabbath schools pleased to see children gathered to CSW 55 Christmas tree may be placed in church for AH 482 ​

Here is just one of the comments she made that is extremly wrong:

There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches, but the sin lies in the motive which prompts to action and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree. AH p. 482 ​

Here's another things she stated clearly about her writings:​

But now I must respond to the letters received from you and others. In your letter you speak of your early training to have implicit faith in the testimonies and say, "I was led to conclude and most firmly believe that every word that you ever spoke in public or private, that every letter you wrote under any and all circumstances, was as inspired as the Ten Commandments." My brother, you have studied my writings diligently, and you have never found that I have made any such claims, neither will you find that the pioneers in our cause ever made such claims. 1SM p. 24​

You know what startles me Castaway is that you and others can mention EGW to base your case on certain religious references. Yet, when it is proven by her own words that she stated not to take to heart everything she have written equal to the Bible. You will not believe her own words that she declare she is not a prophetess, or that she was human and made mistakes. I believe that this woman was gifted and given visions that were true. Why? Because everyone she had you can find the same truth in the Bible. As a Biblical Historian what I don't agree with some of writings are the facts she used from Josephus, or religious views that she brought into the church that was the common belief by most Protestants churches of her day!​

If you want to go ahead and believe a lie fine with me. However you will not find it in the Scripture to celebrate a lie in honor of the SAVIOUR'S birth. It is wordly and celebrated all over the world and now in the SDA Churches as well. I will leave you with Elijah words:​

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, "How long halt ye between two opinions? If YAHWEH be ELOHIM, follow HIM: but if Baal, then follow him." And the people answered him not a word. 1Ki 18:21 ​

My choice is to follow the truth which is not in any celebration of Christmas or the tree. I made my choice and I quess you have made yours!​

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Yes; but Moses is still in heaven; according to the Bible.

Ellen White puts this whole thing about Christmas into a balanced, Biblical perspective that I believe is quite applicable for today:

Castaway:

Again I say she was giving what she believed at that time. But what she believe was wrong and she did not say she was shone by ELOHIM because she was not. Follow the world and let it be but remember you are not Moses and you will not make into the Kingdom if you choose to disobey His Word. I know you think I am judging you but I am not this is just a fact. You will find out very soon who you actually serve because this is a test of loyalty. You either obey or disobey simple.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve?

First of all show me any where in the New Testaments that the disciples or the Apostle mentions Christmas, a tree or YAHSHUA birth should be celebrated? You again quotes from EGW that one rererence in Adventist Homes, but no where else. Again Christmas is a lie-was YAHSHUA BORN ON DECEMBER 25? If so give me the date in the Bible. Show me where any of the Apostles celebrated HIS birth, just show me!

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Pro 14:12 ​

You want to accept the world's tradition so be it but remember you have to stand before the throne of YAHWEH and give an answer. I will just pray for you because you have made up your mind as I have with my mind. EGW is not who I worship or give alligiance to but ELOHIM and only THEM! I will trust and obey because there is no other way to be happy in YAHSHU but to trust and obey!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway:

Again I say she was giving what she believed at that time. But what she believe was wrong and she did not say she was shone by ELOHIM because she was not. Follow the world and let it be but remember you are not Moses and you will not make into the Kingdom if you choose to disobey His Word. I know you think I am judging you but I am not this is just a fact. You will find out very soon who you actually serve because this is a test of loyalty. You either obey or disobey simple.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

LOL; of course I am not Moses.

Let me put it this way; regarding Jer 10. You have not even come close to PROVING that it is actually talking about the Christmas tree. You have simply claimed it. There is a difference. "bring forth your strong reasoning saith the Lord;" and show us from the Bible only that Jeremiah is talking about Christmas trees.

 

[stinsonmarri]

LOL; of course I am not Moses.
Let me put it this way; regarding Jer 10. You have not even come close to PROVING that it is actually talking about the Christmas tree. You have simply claimed it. There is a difference. "bring forth your strong reasoning saith the Lord;" and show us from the Bible only that Jeremiah is talking about Christmas trees.

Castaway: lol-true that you are not in more ways than you joke. :o Let me state this:
The first question that should be asked in regard to this subject is the following: Is there a command anywhere in the Holy Scriptures that a human should cut a tree out of the forest, set it up in one's home at the time of the Winter Solstice, deck it with trinkets and various decorations, and then place a star on its topmost part to show an association of the tree with the signs of the heavens? There is, of course, no such command nor suggestion that such a thing should be done.
Similar laws were put into effect in the American colonies. In Massachusetts, the following law was passed in 1659 and was enforced on the people for 22 years before it was finally repealed.

"Whosoever shall be found observing Christmas, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, every such person shall pay as a fine five shillings to the county."
​

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D

I know for a fact that the Druid priest of all the Germanic tribes celebrated the evergreen trees and the ornaments we used today come from them hanging skulls with light in them on the tree. I know the holly comes from them too. These Celtic were homosexual and would kiss before going off to war. I know Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and more all worship the evergreen tree is was a common pagan practice. Why don't you get the book American Holidays it will tell you the truth that is was pagan and all who celebrated it. Again its your choice and mine is to leave Christmas and all other pagan feast days alone! That why I am a SDA by faith and not by doctrines and tradition outside of the Bible.

Happy Sabbath and bless with love,
stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway: lol-true that you are not in more ways than you joke. :o Let me state this:
The first question that should be asked in regard to this subject is the following: Is there a command anywhere in the Holy Scriptures that a human should cut a tree out of the forest, set it up in one's home at the time of the Winter Solstice, deck it with trinkets and various decorations, and then place a star on its topmost part to show an association of the tree with the signs of the heavens?

You have not given an answer from the Bible. How would you prove FROM THE BIBLE ONLY that Jeremiah 10 is talking about what we know today as a christmas tree?

 

[Castaway57]

Just as I thought stinson, you cannot prove that Jer 10 is talking about a Christmas tree, FROM THE BIBLE ONLY.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Just as I thought stinson, you cannot prove that Jer 10 is talking about a Christmas tree, FROM THE BIBLE ONLY.

Castaway:

What is a christmas tree but an evergreen tree with decoration on it. No the Bible did not use the christmas but YAHWEH showed that man since sinning have always worship the evergreen tree in a certain was-with ornaments of silver and gold. Hum, I wonders what all the green I see with the same thing on for the pagan celebration of Dec 25- death not life! You can call what you want it is what it is paganistic!


Blessings with love,
stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway:

No the Bible did not use the christmas but

Blessings with love,
stinsonmarri

Your "buts" will do you no good at all. You have specifically said over and over that Jer 10 was referring to the Christmas tree; and when asked for proof you had to admit you were wrong. You should just accept that.

 

[Castaway57]

Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve?

December 25 - by CH Spurgeon
Morning

“Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name
Immanuel.” - Isa_7:14

Let us to-day go down to Bethlehem, and in company with wondering shepherds and adoring Magi, let us see him who was born King of the Jews, for we by faith can claim an interest in him, and can sing, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given.”

Jesus is Jehovah incarnate, our Lord and our God, and yet our brother and friend; let us adore and admire. Let us notice at the very first glance his miraculous conception. It was a thing unheard of before, and unparalleled since, that a virgin should conceive and bear a Son. The first promise ran thus, “The seed of the woman,” not the offspring of the man. Since venturous woman led the way in the sin which brought forth Paradise lost, she, and she alone, ushers in the Regainer of Paradise. Our Saviour, although truly man, was as to his human nature the Holy One of God.

Let us reverently bow before the holy Child whose innocence restores to manhood its ancient glory; and let us pray that he may be formed in us, the hope of glory. Fail not to note his humble parentage. His mother has been described simply as “a virgin,” not a princess, or prophetess, nor a matron of large estate. True the blood of kings ran in her veins; nor was her mind a weak and untaught one, for she could sing most sweetly a song of praise; but yet how humble her position, how poor the man to whom she stood affianced, and how miserable the accommodation afforded to the new-born King!

Immanuel, God with us in our nature, in our sorrow, in our lifework, in our punishment, in our grave, and now with us, or rather we with him, in
resurrection, ascension, triumph, and Second Advent splendour.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Castaway:

It is clear that you want to serve this pagan day and worship a pagan tree namely a christmas tree (I've said it does it make you happy now)? Its funny to me why you cannot let it go. Go serve your god be happy, buy gifts, listen to chrismas caroll, because it is all a delusion to believe a lie. I cannot help you my friend talk to the MOST HIGH it is HIM you have a problem with. It is the Bible you are angry with and you still can't no matter what answer the question:

The tree Jeremiah spoke of was an evergreen tree. A tree that everyone gets on this day is evergreen tree. The tree Jeremiah spoke of was decorated with silver and gold. The tree that everyone decorates today have silver and gold and other colors, and popcorn or candy canes, silver strings and gold string, the so call angel hair and light. Jeremiah says it is cut down in the forrest with an axe and it is nailed to be fasten. The same today with the christmas tree it cut down, it is nailed and it is not for good. So there you have it the perfect girl speaks to make things plain only to those who want to hear.

May you have peace and blessings with love,
stinsonmarri

 

[Castaway57]

The First and Second Advent

So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not be bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Heb_9:28.

At the first advent of Christ . . . the angels of heaven could scarcely be restrained from pouring forth their glories to grace the birth of the Son of God. . . . That birth, so little prepared for on earth, was celebrated in the heavenly courts with praise and thanksgiving in behalf of man.

While the shepherds on the hills of Bethlehem watched their flocks by night, "the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them." . . .

The leaders in Israel professed to understand the prophecies, but they had received false ideas in regard to the manner of Christ's coming. Satan had deceived them; and all the glories of Christ's second advent they applied to His first appearing. All the wonderful events clustering around His second coming, they looked for at His first. Therefore, when He came, they were not prepared to receive Him. . . .

Between the first and the second advent of Christ a wonderful contrast will be seen. No human language can portray the scenes of the second coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven. He is to come with His own glory, and with the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. He will come clad in the robe of light, which He has worn from the days of eternity.

Angels will accompany Him. Ten thousand times ten thousand will escort Him on His way. The sound of the trumpet will be heard, calling the sleeping dead from the grave. The voice of Christ will penetrate the tomb, and pierce the ears of the dead, and "all that are in the graves . . . shall come forth." . . .

We are now amid the perils of the last days. The scenes of conflict are hastening on, and the day of days is just upon us. Are we prepared for the issue? Every deed, small and great, is to be brought into recognition. That which has been considered trivial here will then appear as it is. The two mites of the widow will be recognized. The cup of cold water offered, the prison visited, the hungry fed--each will bring its own reward. . . .

The serpent's head will soon be bruised and crushed. The glorious memorial of God's wonderful power is soon to be restored to its rightful place. Then paradise lost will be paradise restored. God's plan for the redemption of man will be complete. The Son of man will bestow upon the righteous the crown of everlasting life, and they shall "serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them" (Rev_7:15) (Review and Herald, Sept. 5, 1899).