Christians & Violence

[Light of the East]

Military action is sometimes authorised.

Oh, you mean like how our government turned a completely blind eye to Dow Chemical, Ford, the Bush family, and other companies building up Nazi Germany and then got us into a nice little war caused by helping a tyrannical thug terrorize Europe?

How very convenient for those who profit from war.

 

[patdee]

Truman & Churchill jointly approved the only ever use of atomic bombs in history and both were Christians. Both also presided over wars that cost many lives. It is perfectly possible that the Italian policeman who shot the Berlin terrorist dead in Milan was a Catholic. In self defence Christians have sometimes killed their attackers.

Do you think that such actions are murder or justifiable killings?

Can Christians be violent when it is required?

Christians are NEVER to be violent; no more than the US Constitution ever condoned violence when protesting. So why does our government not arrest those who commit violence for whatever reason; prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law? Huh? Also:

Justified killings ARE condoned and even commanded by God IN the bible. Oh indeed yes.

IE:

God commanded Joshua to go into the land of Jericho, surround it; and on "cadence"; when "the walls come tumbling down"; "go in there and slay every man, every woman, every child, every beast; and do not bring back a spoil". Oh indeed yes. Look it up. And why?

Earlier, God told Samuel to tell King Saul (the first Israelite King) to go into the land of the Amalekites and slay every man, every woman, every child, every beast and do not bring back anything. Oh indeed yes. Look it up. And why?

God also said the following:

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Etc

Why?

Yes, Why the killings? Simply because God has NEVER looked upon death as we do. Sadly, we wrongly, worship the fleshly being and often deify it, such as Mary. But God does NOT do that, nor does He want us to. Spiritual life is absolute. But this is NOT the case, when it comes to fleshly life and spiritual life CAN be eternal. IE:

The bible says, "When a person has committed cold blooded murder; AND there are at least 2 witnesses to said murder; the murderer is to betaken outside the camp and stoned to death. Reason: the murder renders the person no longer deserving to live any more. It is just. Oh yes. Look it up.

Also: whenever a person has NO more redeemable value in the eyes of Jesus, (God) they will be destroyed ina myriad of ways. History is plum full of this scenario since creation. Gullible religionists do not understand this; thus they come up with foolish, satan-led rules which are NOT in keeping with what Jesus commands and wants. Whether anyone believes it or not. This is WHY the 2 "A-bombs" in WWII were 100% justified; no matter what ANY one says or espouses. Oh indeed yes. So was the destruction of Nazi Germany; no matter what it took to do it. Etc, etc, and Etc.

So why did God say in the 6th commandment, "Thou shall not kill"?

Because that verse HAS got to be mistranslated or misquoted wrongly by its author. Oh indeed yes. For.....

IF that verse is to be taken literally; it would mean that the following killings would be forbade.

IE:

Killing a........

1. Flea

2. Roach.

3. Mosquito or Fly.

4. Bed bug.

5. Germ

6. Virus

7. Animals for clothing, warmth and food.

8. Rat.

9. Fish

10. Trees, Plants and Flowers

Etc.

Thus the word in that commandment, MUST have been translated wrongly. Oh indeed. It should have read "Murder". Then it makes sense.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you always.

 

[Tull]

Yes,im fully aware that its an imperfect world,that people make poor choices and decisions,that lies are told and that people die because of them,both in the macro and the micro scale.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

His divine PLAN to conquer evil and to usher in His Kingdom does not start until after the Return of Jesus Christ.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. (17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Cosmos identifies the system on earth established apart from the Creator God.
2CO 4:3 But even if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are perishing,4 In whom such as the God of eternity has stricken blind the senses of the unbelieving ones, that not should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the figure of God.
Romans 11:8-10: God HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER, EYES that they SHOULD not SEE, and EARS that they SHOULD not HEAR; let their EYES be DARKENED, in the same circumstances of willful rebellion and obstinate unbelief; and the great God of heaven and earth is he who judicially blinds their eyes; makes their hearts fat, i.e. stupid; gives them the spirit of slumber: and bows down their back, apostle means the true God by the words the god of this world; that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost; of THIS WORLD, means simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come. The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.
Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients The Adam Clarke Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Who will suffer an Everlasting penalty Matthew 25:46
Since men will not seek out and obey the true God on their own, the best they can do in regard to a standard of values is their own experience, and that has produced this perverted and violent world. John W. Ritenbaugh
"The rise of Christianity led to a rapid growth of conscientious objection. Accordingly to A. Harnack, C.J. Cadoux, and G.J. Herring, the most eminent students of the problem, few if any Christians served in the Roman Army during the first century and a half A.D.; and even in the third century there were Christian conscientious objectors."
Ro 1:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be metamorphosed by making known in your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Psalm 126:1-2 When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were like those who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations, “The Lord has done great things for them.”

From the beginning of Christianity, Christians have bridged the gamut from extreme hawks to extreme doves. Early Christians, who half-expected to be martyrs and thus die at the hands of violent persecutors, tended to be pacifists. They had no power to fight back. But with the hegemony of the “Holy” Roman Empire, pacifism lost its appeal. The Roman Christians were taking over the world (or so it seemed), often by force. Hence Augustine’s Just War theology. And with the two World Wars, where Christians united to fight the evil regimes, Christian pacifists became hard to find. Likewise, in today’s world of Islamic terrorism and persecution of Christians worldwide, pacifism is not popular. But theologians continue to debate the issue vociferously.

The reason why true believers do not agree on this issue is clear: the scriptures are actually ambivalent about war. There are commands from God for the Hebrew people to fight, and even to wipe out some of their troublesome neighbors; this we hear from entrance into the Promised Land forward. But the New Testament is less politically or nationally oriented. War and even defense is not strongly encouraged, but there is no command against it either. Scriptures can be found that support both pacifists and those who would defend the vulnerable with violence if necessary.

The Christians’ focus is to be on making disciples of all nations through preaching the gospel … with love, not violence. Even OT prophet Zechariah could prophesy: “Not by might, nor by [human] power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts” (Zechariah 4:6b, KJV).

By the way, this initial statement of yours is way out of line: "His divine PLAN to conquer evil and to usher in His Kingdom does not start until after the Return of Jesus Christ."
In fact, God has been following His plan (which is eternal) since the beginning of evil. The most important act against evil was at the Cross. It probably will always be the most important act. Scriptures:
Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:30-31)

Paul: “… by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him.” (Colossians 2: 14-15)

And of course we believers are privileged to participate in mopping up. Why else would Paul (in Ephesians 6) enjoin us to wear the armor of God and wield the sword of the Spirit (which is the Word of God)? The battle goes on.
The essential battle was won at the cross; the outcome is not in doubt. But I agree that the absolute final battle will not occur until the Lord Jesus returns in power and glory.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

You don't seem to be writing from a Christian perspective, at least not as Christian is defined by Christ.

Did Jesus Christ personally appoint the Apostles? Did He personally call Paul to be Apostle to the Gentiles? Did God empower them with the Holy Spirit so that they had the authority of their Master? So what Paul and Peter taught are therefore "God-breathed", even as Paul asserted (2 Tim 3:16).

So in support of Tull, let me quote from these apostles:
“Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.” (1 Peter 2:13-14)

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.” (Romans 13:1-4)

There are some exceptions of course, which Peter himself revealed: “The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. ‘We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,’ he said. ‘Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.’ Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than human beings!’” (Acts 5:27-29)

 

[real tree]

Oh, you mean like how our government turned a completely blind eye to Dow Chemical, Ford, the Bush family, and other companies building up Nazi Germany and then got us into a nice little war caused by helping a tyrannical thug terrorize Europe?

How very convenient for those who profit from war.

So your telling me that hitler and his thugs should of remained in power.

 

[real tree]

According to Christian history and tradition, the terrible emperor Nero used his military power to cut off Paul's head. Nero was a cross dresser who executed many Christians after blaming them for starting a fire that destroyed part of Rome. Not all rulers do good and reject evil.

No they do not.

 

[Light of the East]

So your telling me that hitler and his thugs should of remained in power.

Wow! Do you ever have a comprehension problem! Go back and read my post again. Hitler came to power because American corporatists were working in Germany to make money by having factories over there.


And even after the war was well on the way, Coca-Cola, Dow Chemical and dozens of other companies continued to do business as usual.

 

[real tree]

Wow! Do you ever have a comprehension problem! Go back and read my post again. Hitler came to power because American corporatists were working in Germany to make money by having factories over there.


And even after the war was well on the way, Coca-Cola, Dow Chemical and dozens of other companies continued to do business as usual.

Wow did you read mine, so you think he should of remained in power.

 

[Light of the East]

Wow did you read mine, so you think he should of remained in power.

I didn't say that. That was not the point of my OP. Why don't you answer that? The whole point of the thread is unnecessary violence. The war might have never occurred if our corporations had refused to do business with a tyrant.

 

[real tree]

I didn't say that. That was not the point of my OP. Why don't you answer that? The whole point of the thread is unnecessary violence. The war might have never occurred if our corporations had refused to do business with a tyrant.

I apologise and your right we should take all precautions to avoid unnecessary violence.

 

[Light of the East]

I apologise and your right we should take all precautions to avoid unnecessary violence.

Thank you. We are, as fallen human beings, so quick to respond with violence and hatred. Christ's love is more than ever needed.

 

[SteveIndy]

Military action is sometimes authorised
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:3-4)

Your statement is correct, "Military action is sometimes authorized." This military action is a product of the governments that God Himself has instituted for the express purpose of maintaining civil order amongst a sinful and rebelious creation; even a bad government is better than no government at all. But, here is the real question, should those who have embraced the constitution of the heavenly kingdom protitute themselves by joining with the governors of those governments? Has God instructed His people to enter into a conpact with the world, or has He instructed us to NOT serve two masters? If we are under orders of our Heavenly King to serve Him only under what circumstances are we allowed to disobey His orders and partisipated in the governments of this world? The governments of this world do find it necessary to engage in war and to kill their enemies, but how does this translate to the Christ follower who is directed to die for his enemy? To which is our loyalty required?

 

[he-man]

The reason why true believers do not agree on this issue is clear: the scriptures are actually ambivalent about war. There are commands from God for the Hebrew people to fight, and even to wipe out some of their troublesome neighbors; this we hear from entrance into the Promised Land forward. But the New Testament is less politically or nationally oriented. War and even defense is not strongly encouraged, but there is no command against it either. Scriptures can be found that support both pacifists and those who would defend the vulnerable with violence if necessary.

What did Christ say? Ma.t 5:38, 39 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

2CO 4:3 But even if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are perishing,4 In whom such as the God of eternity has stricken blind the senses of the unbelieving ones, that not should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the figure of God.
Romans 11:8-10: God HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER, EYES that they SHOULD not SEE, and EARS that they SHOULD not HEAR; let their EYES be DARKENED, in the same circumstances of willful rebellion and obstinate unbelief; and the great God of heaven and earth is he who judicially blinds their eyes; makes their hearts fat, i.e. stupid; gives them the spirit of slumber: and bows down their back, apostle means the true God by the words the God of this world; that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost; of THIS WORLD, means simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come. The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.
Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Who will suffer an Everlasting penalty Matthew 25:46 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall pay the penalty of destruction everlasting from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
"The rise of Christianity led to a rapid growth of conscientious objection. Accordingly to A. Harnack, C.J. Cadoux, and G.J. Herring, the most eminent students of the problem, few if any Christians served in the Roman Army during the first century and a half A.D.; and even in the third century there were Christian conscientious objectors."
"The methods of raising men for the army have varied...The Roman system depended on the annual levy, consisting of four legions of infantry...each legion containing 6666 men. The consuls...would announce by herald or written proclamation that a levy was to be made." And the number of the beast is .........
"The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority. G.C. Macgregor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism) points out that ‘until about the close of the third quarter of the second century the attitude of the church was quite consistently pacifist.’ Harnack’s conclusion is that no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 (Militia Christi, p.4). After that time signs of compromise became increasingly evident, but the pacifist trend continues strong right up into the fourth century."[/B]
Ro 1:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be metamorphosed by making known in your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Psalm 126:1-2 When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were like those who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations, “The Lord has done great things for them.”
"For many years many Christian regarded services in the army as inconsistent with their profession. Some held that for them all bloodshed, whether as soldiers or executioners, was unlawful."
"If it is possible, a still stronger evidence of the primitive belief is contained in the circumstance, that some of the Christian authors declared that the refusal of the Christian o bear arms, was a fulfillment of ancient prophecy. (Is 2:3; Mic 4:2) The peculiar strength of this evidence consists in this: that the fact of a refusal to bear arms is assumed as notorious and unquestioned." [Regardless of the validity of the prophetic interpretation.]

 

[Open Heart]

Truman & Churchill jointly approved the only ever use of atomic bombs in history and both were Christians. Both also presided over wars that cost many lives. It is perfectly possible that the Italian policeman who shot the Berlin terrorist dead in Milan was a Catholic. In self defence Christians have sometimes killed their attackers.

Do you think that such actions are murder or justifiable killings?

Can Christians be violent when it is required?

"Neither shall you stand idly by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16 IOW you can't stand by and do nothing while innocents are hurt (including yourself). This is a COMMANDMENT.

 

[he-man]

"Neither shall you stand idly by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16 IOW you can't stand by and do nothing while innocents are hurt (including yourself). This is a COMMANDMENT.

Here are the Commandments: Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of Gehenna. Thou shalt not kill.
Lev 19:16 thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord. WYC Thou shalt not kill.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord. KJV Thou shalt not kill.
16 “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord. Thou shalt not kill.
17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. NIV
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
37 “‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the Lord.’”Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
(Rev 19:19) for when Christ is our Captain, then we will fight

 

[Open Heart]

Here are the Commandments: Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

It's a poor translation. It is better put, "Thou shalt not murder." Killing in defense of the innocent (including yourself) is not murder. In fact, it is a mitzvah.

 

[he-man]

It's a poor translation. It is better put, "Thou shalt not murder." Killing in defense of the innocent (including yourself) is not murder. In fact, it is a mitzvah.

Murder is 5408 φόνος, Φένω murder with premeditation, homicide, slaughter, death as a punishment; So Exodus 20:13 means that you are not to kill. Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. G5407 destroy, dispatch, kill, murder, slaughter, slay, slew.
G4969 specifically) to maim (violently): - G4969 σφαζω butcher, kill, massacre, slaughter, slay.
Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do G1286 violence to no man, G4811 neither take any by false accusation; and be content with your salt. G3800 οψωνιοις salt; orig., salt money (i.e. money given to buy salt, as part of Roman soldiers pay) hence pay < sal, salt], fixed payment at regular intervals for services, usually other than manual or mechanical to be distinguished from wages or fees
G.C. Macgregor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism) points out that ‘until about the close of the third quarter of the second century the attitude of the church was quite consistently pacifist.’ Harnack’s conclusion is that no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 (Militia Christi, p.4). After that time signs of compromise became increasingly evident, but the pacifist trend continues strong right up into the fourth century."

 

[Open Heart]

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. G5407 destroy, dispatch, kill, murder, slaughter, slay, slew.

Thou shalt not murder. One of its meanings IS murder, and we know it is murder from the context, NOT kill. Killing in defence of the innocent is not illicit, otherwise this verse would contradict with the verse that says not to stand idly by your brother's blood.

 

[he-man]

My Kingdom Is Not of This World
Act 5:38　 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:　
39　 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against sovereignties, against authorities, against the world rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
15 And let your feet be shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
1Pe 2:15　 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:　
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.　
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:　4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.　4　 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.　
John 18:36　 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Rom 12:17　Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.　
Rom 12:19　 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.