Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[razzelflabben]

No, I do not claim that. I meant that your comprehension of what I had said meant you were not properly applying the counsel in connection with me.

Just a simple misunderstanding.

Wait a moment...I quote you..."Beat you to it. Research those texts many times and found that they do not support what you claim. I would discuss it here but I am not allowed to. And besides that, I don't think it would do any good considering to whom I would be speaking."

Now my claim that you say the passages do not support is that we should not add to the scriptures what is not there and that has been a theme I have been proclaiming throughout this thread. Thus you are claiming that the passages do NOT support the notion that we should not add to the word of God...please support your claim....using scripture that tells us it is okay to add to the word of God.

You see, this is something you repeatedly have done with me and I am beyond tired of it. I say something that is benign and innocent you reinvent it into something not said then make false accusations against me and what I said and believe and in doing so try to pretend that I don't know anything at all about God or scripture so that you can "teach" me what I already just stated as truth. It's very disturbing and apparently you and gene are feeding off of one another this poor ungodly behavior. You really need to grow up in the Lord and start acting like you know Him personally rather than pretending you are Him.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, I do not claim that. I meant that your comprehension of what I had said meant you were not properly applying the counsel in connection with me.

Just a simple misunderstanding. My fault for editing in the clarification too late.

BTW, if it is a simple misunderstanding then why all the false accusations that lead up to it and then go beyond it as well...just find enough humility within yourself to confess you made a mistake and move on.

 

[Buzz_B]

Wait a moment...I quote you..."Beat you to it. Research those texts many times and found that they do not support what you claim. I would discuss it here but I am not allowed to. And besides that, I don't think it would do any good considering to whom I would be speaking."

Now my claim that you say the passages do not support is that we should not add to the scriptures what is not there and that has been a theme I have been proclaiming throughout this thread. Thus you are claiming that the passages do NOT support the notion that we should not add to the word of God...please support your claim....using scripture that tells us it is okay to add to the word of God.

You see, this is something you repeatedly have done with me and I am beyond tired of it. I say something that is benign and innocent you reinvent it into something not said then make false accusations against me and what I said and believe and in doing so try to pretend that I don't know anything at all about God or scripture so that you can "teach" me what I already just stated as truth. It's very disturbing and apparently you and gene are feeding off of one another this poor ungodly behavior. You really need to grow up in the Lord and start acting like you know Him personally rather than pretending you are Him.

Have it your way. I don't mind. I don't get disturbed.

Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee."

 

[Buzz_B]

BTW, if it is a simple misunderstanding then why all the false accusations that lead up to it and then go beyond it as well...just find enough humility within yourself to confess you made a mistake and move on.

I know of no false accusations.

Do you feel like a victim?

 

[razzelflabben]

Have it your way. I don't mind. I don't get disturbed.

Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee."

lol you still refuse to take responsibility for your sins in this thread which is disturbing from someone who claims to speak for God.

 

[razzelflabben]

I know of no false accusations.

Do you feel like a victim?

lol you said this before and I showed you several and you still refuse to take responsibility for them. See, here is the thing, if you are listening to God, if you do speak for Him as you claim, then you would try to reconcile your sins against me in this thread rather than adding to them. You pretend to be something you are not and it is getting you into trouble because of the truth that God has taught me about taking only what is mine and discarding what is not.

 

[Buzz_B]

lol you still refuse to take responsibility for your sins in this thread which is disturbing from someone who claims to speak for God.

lol you said this before and I showed you several and you still refuse to take responsibility for them. See, here is the thing, if you are listening to God, if you do speak for Him as you claim, then you would try to reconcile your sins against me in this thread rather than adding to them. You pretend to be something you are not and it is getting you into trouble because of the truth that God has taught me about taking only what is mine and discarding what is not.

Take a deep breath and relax. You are OK. Don't let whatever paranoia is driving you to seek fault with the words of others continue to have the victory over you. Realize that even if there were more to what you speak of than just your imagination, God has all under control. Focus on that secure relationship you have with him by virtue of his bountiful love which endures all our imperfections. In that secure trust your mind will be freed to see things more clearly.

I don't know what else to tell you but that I do care about you and I know God cares about you.

 

[GenemZ]

Scripture tells us that the word of God is alive and active...Hebrews 4:12...IOW's where culture and history aid in our understanding it is not necessary to knowing what God needs us to know otherwise He would have said, "My word is reliant on history and culture" not "My word is active and alive"

What's contained in his Word is alive and effectual/powerful/energetic {energes}.

But, only when its properly understood. For only the truth will make you free.

Pastors are supposed to "exegete" the Word of God for their congregation. They are to analyze and take what they can know, and explain it to their listeners in a manner that they know they will be able to relate to.

Its not our job to read the Bible for our self and to try to exegete. For most believers are not equipped by God to do that. Its not their gift.

But.... Reading the Bible gives the average believer lots of healthy questions.

That is good. For when they are finally answered their sense of appreciation is expressed to God. Our job as a believer is to listen and learn and grow in grace. But, first we must be led by the Spirit to a good teacher. We may go through a list of teachers before we find the right one.

It becomes obvious after a time that not all believers who claim they are being led by the Spirit, are. As seen in the mess of contradictory teachings we find today.

 

[GenemZ]

We agree on that.

When I said, "There's that loving Christ-like spirit", you do realize who I was speaking to, right?

No... I did not. Sometimes.. and especially lately. This medium of expression causes problems in communication.

 

[GenemZ]

lol you said this before and I showed you several and you still refuse to take responsibility for them. See, here is the thing, if you are listening to God, if you do speak for Him as you claim, then you would try to reconcile your sins against me in this thread rather than adding to them. You pretend to be something you are not and it is getting you into trouble because of the truth that God has taught me about taking only what is mine and discarding what is not.

razzalflabben? Please. Stop using others as a proxy to nag whomever it is you are afraid to nag.

 

[GenemZ]

I'm completely with you on that. I'm speaking more to how a person back then would have interpreted Jesus' words or Paul's, within the scope of the culture there. And where this most applies is when scripture may seem confusing or controversial.

When Paul spoke he would often times resort to the culturally embedded Greek's way of logic. We need to learn how that system of reasoning worked. My pastor just taught a lesson yesterday and explained this principle at work when Paul wrote Rom 8:8-9. It can confuse us to an extent if we can not see what was being addressed.

Let me guess.. You play bass. Your favorite groups is the Byrds. And, headphones is your preferred way to listen....

And, you are upset that God wants you to ditch that bass for another.

For the Bible clearly states... "

" Fret not yourself. "​

 

[Buzz_B]

No... I did not. Sometimes.. and especially lately. This medium of expression causes problems in communication.

Yes, that and something else I notice in myself and in others. The natural inclination is to not be comfortable thinking ahead about the subject of this thread.

To illustrate, a few months back I received notice of jury duty and knowing that there were a number of murders to be tried in the county I was to serve that jury duty weighed on me because I dread the thought of having to get involved as a juror in a death penalty case.

But here is the thing. I believe in the death penalty when the evidence clearly proves its necessity. And I do believe I could weigh that evidence impartially despite my feelings of dreading to have to be involved in such a case.

I fully believe that God has given the governments the right to make that determination, despite the fact that I am just as sure that Christ died to IF POSSIBLE save all of us. But realistically, I know that some people do forfeit their right to life by their willful conduct which disrespects the lives of others. And if we stop to think about it, that is not far from what Christ said there at John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

So i do know that you will perceive resistance in me just from that discomfort. And I suspect that it works similarly for others.

The taking of the life of a fellow man or woman is something we should have a healthy sadness to have to think about. For that assures we won't cross the line to a lack of conscience.

 

[GenemZ]

I fully believe that God has given the governments the right to make that determination, despite the fact that I am just as sure that Christ died to IF POSSIBLE save all of us. But realistically, I know that some people do forfeit their right to life by their willful conduct which disrespects the lives of others. And if we stop to think about it, that is not far from what Christ said there at John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

There are plenty of people that will tell you they resisted and refused to believe until a certain point in their life. If at that point of not yet believing? Would they be condemned already?
So, why does it say...he that believeth not is condemned already?

Why not say? He will be condemned? For the Lord will condemn all unbelievers at the final judgement.

For we are shown in Scripture that the unbelievers will appear before the Lord and will be condemned.
So? Why does it say that those who do not believe now? Are condemned already?

There is a reason....

 

[Buzz_B]

There are plenty of people that will tell you they resisted and refused to believe until a certain point in their life. If at that point of not yet believing? Would they be condemned already?
So, why does it say...he that believeth not is condemned already?

Why not say? He will be condemned? For the Lord will condemn all unbelievers at the final judgement.

For we are shown in Scripture that the unbelievers will appear before the Lord and will be condemned.
So? Why does it say that those who do not believe now? Are condemned already?

There is a reason....

That is what I too used to think but then I came to realize that the Scriptures show us there is no resurrection of the damned.

When the Scriptures speak of the judgement to come it is in reference to those who in this life remained unjust due to factors beyond their control and the judgement to come is literally about giving them a chance free from those factors which in this life made it too hard for them.

You see, the damned in this life are not even so much as considered to be in the grave which is spoken of at John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice..."

Of course I do not expect you to just gulp that down because I said it, and so I will explain. When we look up the word there translated "graves", turns out that it is the Greek word "mnemeion" (G3419), which means "a remembrance." So it is not just simply referring to any hole in the ground one can be dumped into, but the places which are considered as "memorial tombs", places where those who are to be remembered lay. For that reason many Bible translations use the word "tombs" (short for "memorial tombs") rather than to use the word "graves.'

There are a lot of ways to prove this in the Scriptures and if you would be interested to see those proofs I would happily share them to you.

This subject once properly understood really highlights that you spoke truth in your post number 608.

I will go ahead and prepare an outline of those Scriptural proofs for you in case you would like to see them.

 

[GenemZ]

That is what I too used to think but then I came to realize that the Scriptures show us there is no resurrection of the damned.

They will be resurrected. In their bodies of sin... Short lived. For when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire they will die a second time. Second death. Can't have a second death without being made alive physically again. That is why its called the second resurrection. Its also why Jesus said some will die in their sins. For their bodies of this life will be resurrected. As for us? We will be given a new type of body that could do back strokes and a doggy paddle in the Lake of Fire and enjoy the swim. We can never die.

 

[Buzz_B]

They will be resurrected. In their bodies of sin... Short lived. For when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire they will die a second time. Second death. Can't have a second death without being made alive physically again. That is why its called the second resurrection. Its also why Jesus said some will die in their sins. For their bodies of this life will be resurrected. As for us? We will be given a new type of body that could do back strokes and a doggy paddle in the Lake of Fire and enjoy the swim. We can never die.

That again highlights the truth of what you said in your post 608, for if the "Pastors [who] are supposed to "exegete" the Word of God for their congregation" had done that job properly you would not see it as you presently do.

I am offering to prove that to you from the Scriptures.

So again I ask, Would you like to see those Scriptural proofs? I checked and found I saved all my notes from another thread where I discussed this. But I did not even give all the proofs there are in the Scriptures during that discussion. As I said, it is one of those subjects which can be proved from many directions in the Scriptures.

The thing is that these irresponsible pastors you spoke of in your post 608 have people's minds so tied up with a vast accumulation of interlocking falsehoods that they have most so sure they already understand that they are unwilling to even consider it. And we should expect that of Satan's soldiers, should we not, for Satan is a very intelligent and cunning creature. He does not miss a thing when it comes to blinding minds of men. He also designed into his deceptions such a quantity of falsehoods that the combination gets people locked in. Most by their ending up feeling convinced of the lies and some just by fear that they may be mislead. Satan is sharp and he misses no tricks.

For example, 1 John 4:4 says, "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan knows that if he can make you prematurely believe you have Christ in you he can then keep you blind to the fact that it was really him who deceived you. 1 John 4:4 is completely true IF Christ really be in you. Ol Satan capitalizes on that by feeding you lies which make you believe you have Christ in you before you really do. Then he is able to lead you like a puppet. He can keep you blind with certainty you have found God's truth and/or by fear to look so as to find out you have not. He is a crafty one and those irresponsible pastors have no idea they are really ministering on behalf of him.

Let me know if you are willing to consider those Scriptural proofs. I will gladly be willing to share them with you.

 

[GenemZ]

That again highlights the truth of what you said in your post 608, for if the "Pastors [who] are supposed to "exegete" the Word of God for their congregation" had done that job properly you would not see it as you presently do.

I am offering to prove that to you from the Scriptures.

So again I ask, Would you like to see those Scriptural proofs?

There is a difference between proving things "using" Scriptures. And proving things by Scriptures. Every wrong doctrine tries to prove its point using Scriptures. That's not exegesis. Cutting out the context and just throwing things together to create what appears to be a logical argument is not exegesis.

Would you like me to refute what you said using Scripture? Please refute what I said using Scripture.

There will be TWO resurrections. One onto eternal life. One that will end in condemnation.

Your notion denies any resurrection of the unbeliever.

Resurrection does not have to mean everlasting life as with the believer's resurrection. Everlasting life is only for those who will be in the First Resurrection.

Ac 24:15

"I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept,
that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both
of the just and the unjust.​

Both have a resurrection!

Note the following.. The unjust will be thrown into the Lake of Fire having a body.

Mat 18:8

“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw
it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than
to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
​

But...Mat 18:8, speaks of a body unlike our resurrection bodies. Their's can die...

The resurrected unbelievers will die in their sins. First they will be resurrected to appear before the Lord for judgment. Unbelievers will be (unlike believers) resurrected having their old bodies of sin that God demands must be destroyed. Second death.

 

[Buzz_B]

There is a difference between proving things "using" Scriptures. And proving things by Scriptures. Every wrong doctrine tries to prove its point using Scriptures. That's not exegesis. Cutting out the context and just throwing things together to create what appears to be a logical argument is not exegesis.

Would you like me to refute what you said using Scripture? Please refute what I said using Scripture.

There will be TWO resurrections. One onto eternal life. One that will end in condemnation.

Your notion denies any resurrection of the unbeliever.

Resurrection does not have to mean everlasting life as with the believer's resurrection. Everlasting life is only for those who will be in the First Resurrection.

Ac 24:15

"I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept,
that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both
of the just and the unjust.​

Both have a resurrection!

Note the following.. The unjust will be thrown into the Lake of Fire having a body.

Mat 18:8

“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw
it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than
to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
​

But...Mat 18:8, speaks of a body unlike our resurrection bodies. Their's can die...

The resurrected unbelievers will die in their sins. First they will be resurrected to appear before the Lord for judgment. Unbelievers will be (unlike believers) resurrected having their old bodies of sin that God demands must be destroyed. Second death.

You honestly do not see the mistake you are making there?

In post 614 I gave you a brief glimpse of the solution to Ac 24:15 when I said, "When the Scriptures speak of the judgement to come it is in reference to those who in this life remained unjust due to factors beyond their control and the judgement to come is literally about giving them a chance free from those factors which in this life made it too hard for them." You are not so much as beginning to even consider the possibility I can prove that "in" and "by" Scripture. But I know I can to a mind that is willing to inspect itself and root out any missed understandings.

I edited things into post 616 you may want to think about.

Mat 18:8 is another place where those irresponsible pastors you mentioned in your post 608 have helped to blind the many. But I won't bother to help you see your way through it if you are unwilling to consider what I present.

You are in a rather awkward situation. You have understood correctly about the irresponsible pastors as shown in your post 608 but you are really doing nothing about how they have already filled you with many falsehoods. Instead you manifest an unwillingness to even consider that.

 

[GenemZ]

You honestly do not see the mistake you are making there?

That's not the mistake I see I am making.

 

[Buzz_B]

OK, genez, not a problem.

Ac 24:15

"I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept,
that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both
of the just and the unjust.

It is not a bad thing. It is a hope. For both the just and the unjust it is hope. Ignore that if you must. These unjust are not those declared wicked.

The "they themselves also accept" are those falsely accusing Paul. Not all of them are wicked but all of them who were doing that to Paul were "unjust."

<><><><><><>

Mat 18:8

“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw
it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than
to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

You go right ahead and believe that people will be resurrected to life "maimed or crippled" if you feel you must.

<><><><><><>

If you refuse to see that there are huge defects to what you believe I am not responsible for you. I tried to help you.

If you ever change your mind you can find me until they execute me.

Or just come up with another half baked objection with which to flatter yourself into keeping your self believing you are right.

Luke 6:25 "Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep."