Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[Ken Rank]

So you don't think that God having promised to multiply Abraham's seed like the sands of the sea had anything to do with it? And that God already knew he was tailoring the nation toward his specific purposes even there in the wilderness?

What other fleshly nation has God made such a promise to through Abraham? The USA? Or any other nation?

We see the high priest of Israel saw this: Acts 7:17 "But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt..."

Did the Prophets of old and the Apostles agree with the high priest of flesh Israel? Evidently they did:

Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And where are that Remnant gathered to? Back to the as yet sinful fleshly nation? Or to a spiritual nation?

Yes, I know the prophecies and of course Abraham's promise has something to do with it. That promise became an oath to Isaac, a law to Jacob, and an everlasting covenant to Israel (Psalm 105:8-10).

As for Romans 9:27..... it is quoting Isaiah 10:22 which is speaking of the RETURN of the Northern Kingdom to the land. Somehow this ends up as "saved" in the NT, but that is because it is coming from the Greek sodzo which in other places is clearly saved so they translated it this way here too. Not in all bibles, mind you. The Hebrew is clear though, it is speaking of a RETURN not eternal salvation per se.

By the way, "remnant" does not mean "small amount," it means, "that which remains."

None of this has anything to do with guns. My mind is made up on this... God does not change and God gave permission, when at night, one breaks in to your home you can use lethal force. We are not to "murder" but we can defend ourselves.

 

[Ken Rank]

Being patient and long suffering is not to be confused with pacifism. I think you may be confusing the two.

The true pacifist will allow themselves to be harmed and killed. In contrast...patience and long suffering will do anything possible to avoid the continuation of the conflict.

One of the greatest deterrents in many cases is to show yourself not to be a pacifist... while cautiously and patiently dealing with the negative person. Violent retaliation should be a last resort unless you know an attack is eminent. A pacifist instead, will bow down and offer his neck to the lictor.

Not sure why you seem to think I need a lesson here. I said, while I prefer to desire pacifism, I also understand that this world does not hold that value and if I value life, I might end up having to take one. Not in murder, but in self defense.

As for "confusing the two" I am not confusing anything. God is the God of LIFE, He created life, authored it which makes Him the authority over it. We should not take life in ANY form unless according to His decrees. Murder is a no no..... self defense is ok. Poaching is bad, hunting to feed your family is not. This is pretty simple really....

 

[GenemZ]

Murder is a no no..... self defense is ok. Poaching is bad, hunting to feed your family is not. This is pretty simple really....

Yes, it is. Very simple. It should be. For, it can mean a matter of life or death.

I must admit I played the advocate as to prod you. I was just wishing for you to clarify. Not so much for me. But for some others who may misconstrue your comment on pacifism... as they also often do with the Scriptures. Its a principle Peter laid down concerning the writings of Paul. 2 Peter 3:16..

Sometimes the principle needs to be repeated. For some its the simplest that is the hardest for them to understand. Because? Its so hard to deny as they want to.

 

[razzelflabben]

Not sure why you seem to think I need a lesson here. I said, while I prefer to desire pacifism, I also understand that this world does not hold that value and if I value life, I might end up having to take one. Not in murder, but in self defense.

As for "confusing the two" I am not confusing anything. God is the God of LIFE, He created life, authored it which makes Him the authority over it. We should not take life in ANY form unless according to His decrees. Murder is a no no..... self defense is ok. Poaching is bad, hunting to feed your family is not. This is pretty simple really....

don't let him get to you, he has been looking for a fight throughout the whole thread and has been doing so in a very very very rude and violation manner...

 

[Buzz_B]

My point is this...you claimed that you hear God and that you know it is God because you are always 100% yet here you repeatedly showed yourself to be listening to a different voice than that of God. It is not okay to proclaim to be listening to God so that people will follow your teaching when in fact it is not God's voice you are listening to. Instead we need to study and discuss what scripture really does say and in that find common ground. This is what I have been asking you all from the get go...look at the context with me and discuss it so that we know what God is saying not what other voices are trying to convince us it says...you refused then tried to convince me that I needed taught by someone other than God on the matter only to come to this point and talk about being impressed with my study. You have been trying to tell everyone here we should listen to you because you hear God when in fact you refuse to look at the context of the passages in question so that we can consider what God Himself says.

This is why this is such a big deal. You do not speak for God...God speaks for God through His word and the indwelling HS and the sooner you accept this the better.

Now to be fair, I do not believe for a second you think you did all of this...I mean that would look like pride but by refusing to address the context presented and the questions asked you were telling everyone here to listen to you not God and that is a huge problem that needs addressed and if you are going to make the claim publically that we should listen to you over God then you should be shown publically that God is to be heard over you.

What a load of crap.
But if that is what you choose to believe then that is your right.

Do you even really know how one hears God if you have never heard him? Or, if you have mistaken the voices of your own thinking to be that voice of God?

I will offer you a little help even though offering you advice is probably a bit like kicking against a wall:

You have heard the expression, "Sleep with one eye open." And there are people who have actually learned to in effect, figuratively "sleep with one eye open" due to the necessity brought on of the environment of threat they are forced to live in.

Similarly, one who genuinely has God's spirit speaking to him keeps one spiritual eye open matter not how deeply they are in their own thoughts while pondering things such as Scripture or other important matters.

One knows it is undeniably God's spirit when it does speak. It is completely different from those voices one hears in their head as they think things through. Those voices are always your own mind speaking to you. But when God speaks to one by his spirit they can be fully set of the wrong conclusion and believing their own wrong conclusion is right, yet God literally steps in and calls them back from their mistake. And when he does, it can actually shake you up emotionally. Because when we are set on our choice as to what we believe it is a bit frightening in the beginning to have God forcefully intercede his words on you. You feel chastised each time it happens for a while, until you get used to it.

Hopefully you have at points really experience God speaking to you and though you shut him down because you did not understand what was trying to take place, you now will know what to look for and cease shutting him down.

You and many other who think they are Christian are the ones living in your own little world but you have enough company that it keeps you too comfortable to know it.

I hope nothing but the best for you. But you have much to learn yet and by thinking you know so much you are preventing yourself from seeing that.

May God be able to bless you.

 

[Buzz_B]

A helpful note before anyone objects to what I described in post 565, thinking that God would not override our freewill that way:

He is not overriding ones free will in doing that. He only does it with ones whom he knows their will deep inside is sincerely to learn HIS TRUTH. And he is gracious with such ones to help them through their inexperience because he knows they have a willingness to respond to him.

Most who study the Scriptures do so by addiction more so than by love. It is too easy to claim we study it out of love when the fact may be and very often is that we study it like it is a game to be played and won. A contest where we can convince ourselves that we are special and show off to others how superior we are to be blessed of God to have such knowledge. All the while it is a total self-deception.

The meek one studies because deep down in he desires to learn and to please his Father. The meek one is glad before God when God compassionately intervenes to show him he is wrong.

Contest players are not that way. When they lose they sulk as did Cain. They are only really in it for the challenge. When that ceases to be gratifying to their carnal sense they fall away or become nasty and protective of their territory (their beliefs).

The churches in not seeing that 1 Corinthians 3 is really about building the congregation and that the wood weeds and rubble corresponds to unwise builders letting in those darnel weed tares of places as Matthew 13 into the congregation of God, have exacerbated the problem. In so doing they give entrance to the spirit of the air which operates in sons of disobedience and their prince of this world comes in with them and works through them. So that for centuries now the prince of darkness has by the operation of error been standing on the pulpit.

 

[razzelflabben]

What a load of crap.
But if that is what you choose to believe then that is your right.

Do you even really know how one hears God if you have never heard him? Or, if you have mistaken the voices of your own thinking to be that voice of God?

I will offer you a little help even though offering you advice is probably a bit like kicking against a wall:

You have heard the expression, "Sleep with one eye open." And there are people who have actually learned to in effect, figuratively "sleep with one eye open" due to the necessity brought on of the environment of threat they are forced to live in.

Similarly, one who genuinely has God's spirit speaking to him keeps one spiritual eye open matter not how deeply they are in their own thoughts while pondering things such as Scripture or other important matters.

One knows it is undeniably God's spirit when it does speak. It is completely different from those voices one hears in their head as they think things through. Those voices are always your own mind speaking to you. But when God speaks to one by his spirit they can be fully set of the wrong conclusion and believing their own wrong conclusion is right, yet God literally steps in and calls them back from their mistake. And when he does, it can actually shake you up emotionally. Because when we are set on our choice as to what we believe it is a bit frightening in the beginning to have God forcefully intercede his words on you. You feel chastised each time it happens for a while, until you get used to it.

Hopefully you have at points really experience God speaking to you and though you shut him down because you did not understand what was trying to take place, you now will know what to look for and cease shutting him down.

You and many other who think they are Christian are the ones living in your own little world but you have enough company that it keeps you too comfortable to know it.

I hope nothing but the best for you. But you have much to learn yet and by thinking you know so much you are preventing yourself from seeing that.

May God be able to bless you.

I have and do hear God, but that was not the issue in question, now was it?! The issue on the table is proclaiming to be speaking for God without providing evidence of such, you know, such as the scripture to back up your claims. You see, God's voice will NEVER contradict scripture since scripture is the very word of God to man. As such, when I asked you to look at context to see what scripture says and you refused, you were in essence saying that you were the prophet of God and that we should dismiss scripture in exchange for hearing what you want to say. This is evidence that you are not hearing the voice of God as much as you try to claim.

Now, the warning was given to both you and those that are trying to follow along. At this point it is between the individual and God but the wise man never takes another man's word as what God says over the very word of God He gave us so that we can know what He Himself wants us to know. You see, the whole matter would never have come up if you had only looked at the context of the passages in question when you were asked and accepted that you overspoke on some of them. It's not that hard if there is any humility within the person to start out with. Now...I'm moving on...you decide what you are going to do. In this matter I know without doubt that God is on my side.

 

[razzelflabben]

Now back to what Ken was saying.

It is important when studying scripture for the purpose of rightly dividing the word to not only look at context and word meaning but the totality of scripture. IOW's allowing scripture to interpret scripture. to that point as I was praying and studying yesterday two passages came to mind that deserve our attention as to the point of Ken's post about murder vs. killing.

the first is Exodus 20:13...the word for kill here really, according to Thayer's Lexicon means...
to murder, slay, kill

1. (Qal) to murder, slay
   
   1. premeditated
      
      
   2. accidental
      
      
   3. as avenger
      
      
   4. slayer (intentional) (participle)
      
2. (Niphal) to be slain
   
   
3. (Piel)
   
   1. to murder, assassinate
      
      
   2. murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
      
4. (Pual) to be killed
   

it further says this....רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).

Whereas this does not give us a definitive answer to support what Ken is saying it certainly goes a long way to defend his conclusion that murder is wrong but killing for food or self defense is not wrong.

The second passage that came to mind is Romans 12:18...in context...

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Now notice the context (since some here are so opposed to context I will allow you all to look at it yourselves) the context is taking revenge. Now revenge is NOT the same thing as self defence. Thayers says this (easiest way to cut and paste)
STRONGS NT 1556: ἐκδικέω
ἐκδικέω, ἐκδικῶ; future ἐκδικήσω; 1 aorist ἐξεδίκησα; (ἔκδικος, which see); the Sept. for נָקַם, פָּקַד, שָׁפַט;
a. τινα, to vindicate one's right, do one justice (A. V. avenge): Luke 18 (1 Macc. 6:22); τινα ἀπό τίνος, to protect, defend, one person from another,Luke 18:3; ἑαυτόν, to avenge oneself, Romans 12:19.
b. τί, to avenge a thing (i. e. to punish a person for a thing): τήν παρακοήν, 2 Corinthians 10:6; τό haima] τίνος ἀπό or ἐκ τίνος, to demand in punishment the blood of one from another, i. e. to exact of the murderer the penalty of his crime (A. V. avenge one's blood on or at the hand of): Revelation 6:10; Revelation 19:2; see ἐκ, I. 7. (In Greek authors from (Apollod.), Diodorus down.)

But I want to focus for a moment on something else that this passage reveals...it is found in verse 18 to aid our discussion I will only paste the part that applies to this passage...6. of that on which a thing depends, or from which it results: οὐκ ἐστιν ἡ ζωή ἐκ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων, does not depend upon possessions, i. e. possessions cannot secure life, Luke 12:15; εὐπορία ἡμῶν ἐστι ἐκ τῆς ἐργασίας ταύτης, Acts 19:25; τό ἐξ ὑμῶν, as far as depends on you, Romans 12:18; in the Pauline phrases δίκαιος, δικαιοσύνη, δικαιοῦν ἐκ πίστεως, ἐξ ἔργων, see (the several words, especially), p. 150; ἐξ (as the result of, in consequence of) ἔργων λαβεῖν τό πνεῦμα, Galatians 3:2, 5; ἐξ ἀναστάσεως λαβεῖν τούς νεκρούς, Hebrews 11:35; ἐσταυρώθη ἐξ ἀσθενείας, 2 Corinthians 13:4; add, Romans 11:6; Galatians 3:18, 21; Ephesians 2:8f.

IOW's there are forces that sometimes prevent us from living in peace with all men. this very thread demonstrates that some people simply refuse to live in peace or be held accountable to reasonable behavior. So what do we do in those situations? We live according to scripture as best as we can, we pray for the people involved, we show them Love that is biblical Love not man's version of Love, a Love which btw rejoices in truth...a huge deal in this thread...and in that everything that God requires of man if fulfilled. Now this is obviously done in the power of the indwelling HS (yes I said indwelling since that is what scripture says not some people in this thread) but it still has limits and the limits are on the other person refusing to live in peace.

Seems to me that Ken has a pretty good grasp on what scripture seems to be telling us in context of the totality of scripture.

 

[razzelflabben]

What a load of crap.
But if that is what you choose to believe then that is your right.

Do you even really know how one hears God if you have never heard him? Or, if you have mistaken the voices of your own thinking to be that voice of God?

I will offer you a little help even though offering you advice is probably a bit like kicking against a wall:

You have heard the expression, "Sleep with one eye open." And there are people who have actually learned to in effect, figuratively "sleep with one eye open" due to the necessity brought on of the environment of threat they are forced to live in.

Similarly, one who genuinely has God's spirit speaking to him keeps one spiritual eye open matter not how deeply they are in their own thoughts while pondering things such as Scripture or other important matters.

One knows it is undeniably God's spirit when it does speak. It is completely different from those voices one hears in their head as they think things through. Those voices are always your own mind speaking to you. But when God speaks to one by his spirit they can be fully set of the wrong conclusion and believing their own wrong conclusion is right, yet God literally steps in and calls them back from their mistake. And when he does, it can actually shake you up emotionally. Because when we are set on our choice as to what we believe it is a bit frightening in the beginning to have God forcefully intercede his words on you. You feel chastised each time it happens for a while, until you get used to it.

Hopefully you have at points really experience God speaking to you and though you shut him down because you did not understand what was trying to take place, you now will know what to look for and cease shutting him down.

You and many other who think they are Christian are the ones living in your own little world but you have enough company that it keeps you too comfortable to know it.

I hope nothing but the best for you. But you have much to learn yet and by thinking you know so much you are preventing yourself from seeing that.

May God be able to bless you.

you are forgetting that we are to test what we "hear"..I John 4.....1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than the one who is of the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of error.

You would also be wise to consider this passage in Romans 2:17-24....more times than not when people on these boards attack others as a couple of people here have been doing without cause it is because they are projecting their own sins upon others.

 

[Buzz_B]

I have and do hear God, but that was not the issue in question, now was it?! The issue on the table is proclaiming to be speaking for God without providing evidence of such, you know, such as the scripture to back up your claims. You see, God's voice will NEVER contradict scripture since scripture is the very word of God to man. As such, when I asked you to look at context to see what scripture says and you refused, you were in essence saying that you were the prophet of God and that we should dismiss scripture in exchange for hearing what you want to say. This is evidence that you are not hearing the voice of God as much as you try to claim.

Now, the warning was given to both you and those that are trying to follow along. At this point it is between the individual and God but the wise man never takes another man's word as what God says over the very word of God He gave us so that we can know what He Himself wants us to know. You see, the whole matter would never have come up if you had only looked at the context of the passages in question when you were asked and accepted that you overspoke on some of them. It's not that hard if there is any humility within the person to start out with. Now...I'm moving on...you decide what you are going to do. In this matter I know without doubt that God is on my side.

you are forgetting that we are to test what we "hear"..I John 4.....1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than the one who is of the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of error.

You would also be wise to consider this passage in Romans 2:17-24....more times than not when people on these boards attack others as a couple of people here have been doing without cause it is because they are projecting their own sins upon others.

I am glad to hear that you do hear God. For then I know you know God is listening to you. And although he may at sometimes chastise us, we know that he cannot be wrong and chastises us out of love for us. That then moves us to love him like the Father he truly is.

But you are spot on right about our need to test the spirit to be sure it originates with God. That principle holds true whether it is the spirit which is behind and inspiring what others speak to us OR even that voice which enters into our mind and heart to call us back from our own thoughts and beliefs as we are in the process of searching out the proofs we need. For even that spirit within could in fact be the spirit of Satan speaking to superimpose Satan's thoughts upon us.

Our ability to test the spirit is hugely affected by what we have already come to believe if we are too [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sure of our beliefs. And so if we use our own beliefs which might possible be in err to do that testing we will not obtain any more reliable conclusion than the defects in our beliefs allow. And so it is that Paul by the holy spirit working through him spoke of the one reliable way of knowing if a spirit is even worth considering in helping us to shape our beliefs. And, as you said, that way is, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."

I will use Jehovah's Witnesses as an example here, because many claim that they deny Christ. And the reason that the many say that is due to the standards they have chosen to use in testing the spirit which comes through Jehovah's Witnesses. But, in reality, do Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Christ came in the flesh? Any honest person has to admit that Jehovah's Witness do not deny that Christ came in the flesh. Unlike Christadelphians who believe and teach that Jesus Christ had no prior heavenly existence, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Christ was the first Son of God (the image of his Father) and that Adam was created in the image of God was the first human son of God in the likeness of God's heavenly Son's relationship to the Father. (Luke 3:38) So Jehovah's Witnesses teach Jesus, as the replacement to mankind of their fallen forefather Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), who took the first Adam's place as the eternal father of mankind and is the foremost Son of God in the flesh and in the spirit, in the flesh corresponding to the likeness of the heavenly he humbly released his grasp on to become flesh.

Although Jehovah's Witnesses and I differ on some details, I completely agree with them concerning their teaching as to Christ. And I am not speaking about whether or not the Trinity is true or false. I am talking about sincerely testing the spirit apart from causing that testing to become subjective by going beyond the rule, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."

For you know yourself that many practice various degrees of disdain toward Jehovah's Witnesses because they correlate not believing the Trinity as one and the same with denying Christ came in the flesh. They have been taught to add the thought "came in the flesh as God" to what Paul counseled concerning, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." In so doing they go beyond what is written, relying that their own intelligent decision to believe a particular doctrine is a basis upon which to judge the spirit of others, and that is sin of a cardinal degree. When anyone believes in Christ and believes that Christ (which means God's chosen or anointed one) came in the flesh, we disobey Jesus to treat them like enemies. Why is that sin to a cardinal degree? One, because no one that is so secure that they are that correct in doctrine is open to growing more. All they ever do is look to prove they are correct, but not to see if they may be wrong. And Two, because when they teach others to be that way they in effect teach others to not be really open to allowing God to help them to grow. They teach others to be just as closed minded as they are. And that then fights against God's desire to grow us HIS way, by His knowledge, rather than by our imperfectly derived at doctrines, thus constituting them unknowing fighters against God. And that means this is a cardinal sin.

Therefore, let us test the spirit, but doing so without sinning by going beyond what is written. That will require much practice for some.

 

[GenemZ]

I am glad to hear that you do hear God. For then I know you know God is listening to you. And although he may at sometimes chastise us, we know that he cannot be wrong and chastises us out of love for us. That then moves us to love him like the Father he truly is.

But you are spot on right about our need to test the spirit to be sure it originates with God. That principle holds true whether it is the spirit which is behind and inspiring what others speak to us OR even that voice which enters into our mind and heart to call us back from our own thoughts and beliefs as we are in the process of searching out the proofs we need. For even that spirit within could in fact be the spirit of Satan speaking to superimpose Satan's thoughts upon us.

Our ability to test the spirit is hugely affected by what we have already come to believe if we are too [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sure of our beliefs. And so if we use our own beliefs which might possible be in err to do that testing we will not obtain any more reliable conclusion than the defects in our beliefs allow. And so it is that Paul by the holy spirit working through him spoke of the one reliable way of knowing if a spirit is even worth considering in helping us to shape our beliefs. And, as you said, that way is, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."



Although Jehovah's Witnesses and I differ on some details, I completely agree with them concerning their teaching as to Christ. And I am not speaking about whether or not the Trinity is true or false. I am talking about sincerely testing the spirit apart from causing that testing to become subjective by going beyond the rule, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."

For you know yourself that many practice various degrees of disdain toward Jehovah's Witnesses because they correlate not believing the Trinity as one and the same with denying Christ came in the flesh. They have been taught to add the thought "came in the flesh as God" to what Paul counseled concerning, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." In so doing they go beyond what is written, relying that their own intelligent decision to believe a particular doctrine is a basis upon which to judge the spirit of others, and that is sin of a cardinal degree. When anyone believes in Christ and believes that Christ (which means God's chosen or anointed one) came in the flesh, we disobey Jesus to treat them like enemies. Why is that sin to a cardinal degree? One, because no one that is so secure that they are that correct in doctrine is open to growing more. All they ever do is look to prove they are correct, but not to see if they may be wrong. And Two, because when they teach others to be that way they in effect teach others to not be really open to allowing God to help them to grow. They teach others to be just as closed minded as they are. And that then fights against God's desire to grow us HIS way, by His knowledge, rather than by our imperfectly derived at doctrines, thus constituting them unknowing fighters against God. And that means this is a cardinal sin.

Therefore, let us test the spirit, but doing so without sinning by going beyond what is written. That will require much practice for some.

JW's believe Jesus was an angel. The archangel Michael. Angels are not men. Angels are not born of women. The JW's have some very serious errors in their thinking. Technically, according to their notion about the archangel Michael, Jesus could not have come in the flesh and become the second Adam. Angels are not human flesh. Jesus body was given for us, not angels.

Who Is Michael the Archangel? Is Jesus? | Bible Teach

 

[Buzz_B]

JW's believe Jesus was an angel. The archangel Michael. Angels are not men. Angels are not born of women. The JW's have some very serious errors in their thinking. Technically, according to their notion about the archangel Michael, Jesus could not have come in the flesh and become the second Adam. Angels are not human flesh. Jesus body was given for us, not angels.

Who Is Michael the Archangel? Is Jesus? | Bible Teach

That is a mere rationalization you are using, based upon your opinion which can get you into deep trouble with God if you act on its basis as though your opinion is flawless.

Jehovah's Witnesses fully accept the divine nature of Christ and they fully accept the virgin birth into the flesh via Marry. They pass the test whether you totally agree with their speculative details or not.

Perhaps those speculative details exist to test you. Of course you will likely now harp that you believe that in saying that Jesus is "a god" rather than "God" they are denying the divine nature. However that is shear ignorance for they fully recognize Christ in his prior heavenly life was the Son of God and one does not get much more divine than that. There is no need to go beyond what is written.

You don't see yourself as so much better than your son, do you? Neither is God's attitude toward his sons (and especially toward his first born) that he is better than they. Our regard saying they are bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh is a tribute to God's unselfish love of his Son and his sons that he sees them as reflections of himself. The same way you see your son as your reflection if he was obedient and you taught him well.

 

[Buzz_B]

Food for pondering:

The word “divine” is first and foremost an adjective describing quality of the highest possible degree.

From Webster's College Dictionary:
divine
adj.
ME & OFr < L divinus < divus, god, DEITY

1. of or like God or a god
2. given or inspired by God; holy; sacred
3. devoted to God; religious; sacrosanct
4. having to do with theology
5. supremely great, good, etc.
6. Informal very pleasing, attractive, etc.

Even when we use names like as , “the Divine One”, while a name is considered a noun, it is yet in reality the combination of an adjective and a pronoun. It is only the use of that combination as a name which enables it to be called a noun phrase. The expression, “the Divinity”, is but another way to say, “the Divine One.”

The word, “Godhead”, is some man's idea of what was inferred by the use of Greek words which in reality all when correctly translated mean “divine” or “god-like.”

For this reason we see different translators choosing to translate those same texts in which the KJV translates “Godhead”, in different ways:

Acts 17:29 “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.” (KJV)

Acts 17:29 “Being therefore the offspring of God, we must not suppose the divinity to be like unto gold, or silver, or stone, the graving of art, and device of man.” (1610 Douay)


Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” (KJV)

Romans 1:20 “ For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.” (1610 Douay)


Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (KJV)

Colossians 2:9 “For in him all the wealth of God's being has a living form,” (Bible in Basic English)

Colossians 2:9 “For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,” (Weymouth New Testament)


What is God's nature there at Colossians 2:9 ? God's nature is “divineness” or “divinity” as the highest quality of nature. We would expect God's true sons to bear that same nature even as your son bears you nature being as you are who he is from and you are the one who trained him to be who he is in your likeness.

But when we turn these simple ideas into tools to beat up on others with we distort them to serve our selfish need and we thus begin stepping away from their reality. All whom we teach we thus cause to be resistant to the reality and in doing that we have made ourselves fighters against God.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am glad to hear that you do hear God. For then I know you know God is listening to you. And although he may at sometimes chastise us, we know that he cannot be wrong and chastises us out of love for us. That then moves us to love him like the Father he truly is.

But you are spot on right about our need to test the spirit to be sure it originates with God. That principle holds true whether it is the spirit which is behind and inspiring what others speak to us OR even that voice which enters into our mind and heart to call us back from our own thoughts and beliefs as we are in the process of searching out the proofs we need. For even that spirit within could in fact be the spirit of Satan speaking to superimpose Satan's thoughts upon us.

Our ability to test the spirit is hugely affected by what we have already come to believe if we are too [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sure of our beliefs. And so if we use our own beliefs which might possible be in err to do that testing we will not obtain any more reliable conclusion than the defects in our beliefs allow. And so it is that Paul by the holy spirit working through him spoke of the one reliable way of knowing if a spirit is even worth considering in helping us to shape our beliefs. And, as you said, that way is, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."

that is only part of the test...look at the context and what it says so that you know the second half of the test. It really isn't hard to miss who is and who is not speaking in the Spirit when you only issue half the test God instructs us to give.

I will use Jehovah's Witnesses as an example here, because many claim that they deny Christ. And the reason that the many say that is due to the standards they have chosen to use in testing the spirit which comes through Jehovah's Witnesses. But, in reality, do Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Christ came in the flesh? Any honest person has to admit that Jehovah's Witness do not deny that Christ came in the flesh. Unlike Christadelphians who believe and teach that Jesus Christ had no prior heavenly existence, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Christ was the first Son of God (the image of his Father) and that Adam was created in the image of God was the first human son of God in the likeness of God's heavenly Son's relationship to the Father. (Luke 3:38) So Jehovah's Witnesses teach Jesus, as the replacement to mankind of their fallen forefather Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), who took the first Adam's place as the eternal father of mankind and is the foremost Son of God in the flesh and in the spirit, in the flesh corresponding to the likeness of the heavenly he humbly released his grasp on to become flesh.

Although Jehovah's Witnesses and I differ on some details, I completely agree with them concerning their teaching as to Christ. And I am not speaking about whether or not the Trinity is true or false. I am talking about sincerely testing the spirit apart from causing that testing to become subjective by going beyond the rule, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God."

For you know yourself that many practice various degrees of disdain toward Jehovah's Witnesses because they correlate not believing the Trinity as one and the same with denying Christ came in the flesh. They have been taught to add the thought "came in the flesh as God" to what Paul counseled concerning, "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." In so doing they go beyond what is written, relying that their own intelligent decision to believe a particular doctrine is a basis upon which to judge the spirit of others, and that is sin of a cardinal degree. When anyone believes in Christ and believes that Christ (which means God's chosen or anointed one) came in the flesh, we disobey Jesus to treat them like enemies. Why is that sin to a cardinal degree? One, because no one that is so secure that they are that correct in doctrine is open to growing more. All they ever do is look to prove they are correct, but not to see if they may be wrong. And Two, because when they teach others to be that way they in effect teach others to not be really open to allowing God to help them to grow. They teach others to be just as closed minded as they are. And that then fights against God's desire to grow us HIS way, by His knowledge, rather than by our imperfectly derived at doctrines, thus constituting them unknowing fighters against God. And that means this is a cardinal sin.

Therefore, let us test the spirit, but doing so without sinning by going beyond what is written. That will require much practice for some.

lol which is why I begged you to look at context and since you refused it told us more than you wanted us to know...but since this is off topic, the discussion ends here.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ken Rank ...I have a question for you that is somewhat off topic but really more on topic than you think.

You talked about not killing just to kill and I agree with you and it seems scripture does to but my question is where does animal sacrifice in the OT come into the equation in your way of thinking? Thanks in advance.

 

[Almost there]

I do not wish to die by the gun, therefore I shall not live by it.

I carry in my car, but I certainly don't "live by the gun". I live by my IT skills.

The gun is there not only for my protection but that of anyone else in the vehicle with me.

On a side note, the lion's share of the time a gun is used in self defense it is not discharged. Simply upping the ante by making the perp/bully aware you are armed is usually enough to get them to back of or just plain run away. If I ever use my gun in self defense, that is how it will probably go down, though it is critical that one has the will to use it. e.g. If someone starts moving toward me AFTER I point the gun at them and tell them not to move toward me, they are going to get shot. Period. A knowledgeable person knows that if you can reach the gun someone is holding on you, you can disarm them before they have a chance to fire. So you NEVER let them get within reaching distance of your gun.

 

[RaymondG]

I carry in my car, but I certainly don't "live by the gun". I live by my IT skills.

The gun is there not only for my protection but that of anyone else in the vehicle with me.

On a side note, the lion's share of the time a gun is used in self defense it is not discharged. Simply upping the ante by making the perp/bully aware you are armed is usually enough to get them to back of or just plain run away. If I ever use my gun in self defense, that is how it will probably go down, though it is critical that one has the will to use it. e.g. If someone starts moving toward me AFTER I point the gun at them and tell them not to move toward me, they are going to get shot. Period. A knowledgeable person knows that if you can reach the gun someone is holding on you, you can disarm them before they have a chance to fire. So you NEVER let them get within reaching distance of your gun.

IT skills? What is your IT of choice? I am a Sys Eng as well.

I have no problem with people using guns.....I do not believe God does either. He just tells us what will happen if we live by them and leaves it up to us to choose our future. The future we choose is arbitrary.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

 

[Almost there]

IT skills? What is your IT of choice? I am a Sys Eng as well.

I have no problem with people using guns.....I do not believe God does either. He just tells us what will happen if we live by them and leaves it up to us to choose our future. The future we choose is arbitrary.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

COBOL IMS DB/DC beginning in 1983, culminating in being an IMS DBA in the mid-90's. I then chased the Y2k remediation cash through the turn of the century.

In the early 2000's I saw an influx of VERY cheap indian contractors and decided that if I was to stay in IT I needed a "communication intensive" position. Since then I've bounced between PM and BA, preferring BA. I've worked and contracted for 18 companies.

One of my "soft*" miracles is how I got into IT in the first place.

*soft - not a "true" miracle in that it didn't defy physical laws. Just an AMAZING chain of coincidences.

 

[GenemZ]

That is a mere rationalization you are using, based upon your opinion which can get you into deep trouble with God if you act on its basis as though your opinion is flawless.

Jehovah's Witnesses fully accept the divine nature of Christ and they fully accept the virgin birth into the flesh via Marry. They pass the test whether you totally agree with their speculative details or not.

What are you doing in this section? JW's found a way to get around the forum rules for the Christians only section, and you are doing a trial run? Sounds that way.

Did the Jehovah Witnesses have a revival and now thing different than they have in the past? What is with you. Playing the Devil's advocate?

Come on... go back to talking to some unknown person when you post. Its real conducive to not being an author of confusion.

...... its down the hall. two doors to the left.

 

[GenemZ]

I carry in my car, but I certainly don't "live by the gun". I live by my IT skills.

"Living by the sword" .... in the context Jesus spoke. Was about living in criminality. Romans 13:4 speaks of God's agent who carries the sword to deal with criminality. Hence.. "Die by the sword."

Peter was acting like a criminal. Imagine a police officer comes to arrest your friend and you shoot at the officer? You then become a criminal. Jesus warned Peter to stop acting like a criminal. Then Jesus much to the amazement to everyone involved, healed the wounded arresting officer as to prevent Peter going to jail.

I think its criminal how so many won't think. They refuse to. And, while emoting conclude with how they feel about what happened, based upon their fantasy image of Jesus. Some of them might as well be worshiping statues of Mary the way they refuse to think with what the context states...and by resisting and refusing to learn the meaning of things that existed at the time the Bible was written.

Criminals at that time "lived by the sword." They did not have guns. Peter was acting like a criminal at the time of Jesus arrest.