Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[Buzz_B]

The commandment was given while Israel was in the wilderness... so that 'threat' didn't exist at that point. Also, I see the Torah (Law, instructions) as not having an end, everlasting.

I see.

So you don't think that God having promised to multiply Abraham's seed like the sands of the sea had anything to do with it? And that God already knew he was tailoring the nation toward his specific purposes even there in the wilderness?

What other fleshly nation has God made such a promise to through Abraham? The USA? Or any other nation?

We see the high priest of Israel saw this: Acts 7:17 "But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt..."

Did the Prophets of old and the Apostles agree with the high priest of flesh Israel? Evidently they did:

Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And where are that Remnant gathered to? Back to the as yet sinful fleshly nation? Or to a spiritual nation?

 

[GenemZ]

Indeed... which is why, if you go back to my previous posts, you'll notice that while I prefer pacifism (What right minded individual wouldn't?)

Being patient and long suffering is not to be confused with pacifism. I think you may be confusing the two.

The true pacifist will allow themselves to be harmed and killed. In contrast...patience and long suffering will do anything possible to avoid the continuation of the conflict.

One of the greatest deterrents in many cases is to show yourself not to be a pacifist... while cautiously and patiently dealing with the negative person. Violent retaliation should be a last resort unless you know an attack is eminent. A pacifist instead, will bow down and offer his neck to the lictor.

 

[tulc]

Being patient and long suffering is not to be confused with pacifism. I think you may be confusing the two.

The true pacifist will allow themselves to be harmed and killed. In contrast...patience and long suffering will do anything possible to avoid the continuation of the conflict.

One of the greatest deterrents in many cases is to show yourself not to be a pacifist... while cautiously and patiently dealing with the negative person. Violent retaliation should be a last resort unless you know an attack is eminent. A pacifist instead, will bow down and offer his neck to the lictor.

...you mean like someone going to die on the cross instead of calling down legions of angels to fight for Him? Wait...that sounds...familiar.
tulc(wonders if there's any example in the history of the Church of someone doing that?)

 

[GenemZ]

...you mean like someone going to die on the cross instead of calling down legions of angels to fight for Him? Wait...that sounds...familiar.
tulc(wonders if there's any example in the history of the Church of someone doing that?)

If I were dying for mankind's sins'? Yes. It would be required of me.

..... What has that got to do with you?

What you said tells me you do not understand why Jesus went to the Cross.

 

[GenemZ]

...you mean like someone going to die on the cross instead of calling down legions of angels to fight for Him? Wait...that sounds...familiar.
tulc(wonders if there's any example in the history of the Church of someone doing that?)

hmmmmmm.... Your signature states the following:

U.S. police have killed 1160 people in 2017

Maybe those 1160 people were just doing what Christians are suppose to do. Right?

 

[tulc]

hmmmmmm.... Your signature states the following:



Maybe those 1160 people were just doing what Christians are suppose to do. Right?

hmmm I'd just point out: this thread isn't about my signature, if you want to discuss that you should start another thread about it.
tulc(seems only fair)

 

[tulc]

If I were dying for mankind's sins'? Yes. It would be required of me.

..... What has that got to do with you?

What you said tells me you do not understand why Jesus went to the Cross.

Or you don't understand the difference between doing what you want to do/believe and what Christ's example showed us to do?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[GenemZ]

Or you don't understand the difference between doing what you want to do/believe and what Christ's example showed us to do?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

It actually is about your signature too...

U.S. police have killed 1160 people in 2017​

You see... They should have just laid down and allowed themselves to be shot according to the teaching your pushing here.

Why are you protesting them acting like you say Christians should?

 

[Buzz_B]

Or you don't understand the difference between doing what you want to do/believe and what Christ's example showed us to do?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

That is the point that am concerned with trying to make. This is why I have been trying to help others understand that we cannot use how God dealt with Israel of old as our model without we also suffer the fate of Israel of old.

That Israel is not the Israel we see today. If DNA tests were run on the majority of them I highly doubt that many of them would qualify by blood. But modern Israel has laws allowing them to adopt those not of the bloodline and call them an Israelite and even a Jew. It is a good study to learn about their modern day laws. Since 2011 that nation has become numbered among the more permissive nations in the world as regards their policies on abortion. And they have very liberal with regard to many of the old laws so that rather than growing to God they clearly are quite consistently growing further and further away from God.

I think genez realizes that but then he uses that unfaithful Israel of old as his justification that it is OK to exercise worldly patriotism and pledge your allegiance to your country and their military.

What genez says of the high cost of pacifism is true. But it seems he leaves out seeing that God has allowed this earth to be set aflame by wars and political strife and all sorts of sin because it reveals who are really standing strong for God and who are really only feigning allegiance to God. It tests our metal. Can we stand by God's commandment to love as Christ loved through that severe heat? Or, will that fire burn us up, revealing us to be chaff?

We know that it is unreasonable to think we can convict all of what they are blindly doing but because of God's love working in us we keep trying. We need that hard forehead God gave Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 3:7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.
8 Behold, I have made thy face ("Son of man") strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.
9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead ("Son of man"): fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
10 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.
11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

 

[GenemZ]

I think genez realizes that but then he uses that unfaithful Israel of old as his justification that it is OK to exercise worldly patriotism and pledge your allegiance to your country and their military.

Make sense please. Worldly patriotism? Pledge allegiance to military?

"Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call,
who will get ready for battle?" 1 Cor 14:8​

Paul saw fit to use the military as an example to exemplify the Christian way of thinking!

Paul had a deep love for his people and nation. He even wished to be accursed if they could be saved.
Are you well? You sound like Jehovah Witness the way you speak of those things. God has ordained nations and nationalities! It was a part of the tower of Babel. God does want nationalism to keep peoples separated and autonomous. Even during the Millennium there will be nations and nationalism in the world.

Besides... Israel was both faithful, and was unfaithful at other times. Just like Christians are faithful, and unfaithful. You think the NT only speaks of faithfulness amongst believers??? You make it sound like Israel was unfaithful all the time. The Lord loved the reign of David and there were other times as well covered in the Bible. But, the Bible does not hide things. When Israel was bad it was not a time to teach about having a military!

Paul had GREAT patriotism!

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it
through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish
in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, my countrymen according to the flesh, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and
the promises." Rom 9:1-4​

 

[Buzz_B]

Make sense please. Worldly patriotism? Pledge allegiance to military?

"Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call,
who will get ready for battle?" 1 Cor 14:8​

Paul saw fit to use the military as an example to exemplify the Christian way of thinking!

Paul had a deep love for his people and nation. He even wished to be accursed if they could be saved.
Are you well? You sound like Jehovah Witness the way you speak of those things. God has ordained nations and nationalities! It was a part of the tower of Babel. God does want nationalism to keep peoples separated and autonomous. Even during the Millennium there will be nations and nationalism in the world.

Besides... Israel was both faithful, and was unfaithful at other times. Just like Christians are faithful, and unfaithful. You think the NT only speaks of faithfulness amongst believers??? You make it sound like Israel was unfaithful all the time. The Lord loved the reign of David and there were other times as well covered in the Bible. But, the Bible does not hide things. When Israel was bad it was not a time to teach about having a military!

Paul had GREAT patriotism!

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it
through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish
in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, my countrymen according to the flesh, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and
the promises." Rom 9:1-4​

I see a tangent.

Paul had great love for his countrymen as should we. Paul did not mount up along with Josephus and the others to defend Jerusalem against Rome, nor did any other Apostle or NT Bible writer. So your comment reeks of emotion rather than logic. Patriotism and love are two different things.

 

[razzelflabben]

I see.

So you don't think that God having promised to multiply Abraham's seed like the sands of the sea had anything to do with it? And that God already knew he was tailoring the nation toward his specific purposes even there in the wilderness?

What other fleshly nation has God made such a promise to through Abraham? The USA? Or any other nation?

We see the high priest of Israel saw this: Acts 7:17 "But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt..."

Did the Prophets of old and the Apostles agree with the high priest of flesh Israel? Evidently they did:

Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And where are that Remnant gathered to? Back to the as yet sinful fleshly nation? Or to a spiritual nation?

Romans 4:12-14 13 For the promise to Abraham 14 If those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made empty and the promise is canceled.

Romans 4:16
This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of Abraham’s faith. He is the father of us all

Romans 9:7-9
7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants. through Isaac. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah


Galatians 3:14
The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

Seems to me that scripture is pretty clear that the promise to Abraham was to all believers not just the Jews.

 

[Buzz_B]

Romans 4:12-14 13 For the promise to Abraham 14 If those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made empty and the promise is canceled.

Romans 4:16
This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of Abraham’s faith. He is the father of us all

Romans 9:7-9
7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants. through Isaac. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah


Galatians 3:14
The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

Seems to me that scripture is pretty clear that the promise to Abraham was to all believers not just the Jews.

If you are showing where that remnant are gathered you are correct. If you are saying God did not give that fleshly nation a legitimate chance to be that holy nation and kingdom of priests to him, well, you already know God does not promise anyone anything he is not willing to give them.

God knew they would fail by law due to sin. But that does not alter that his offer to them was legitimate. He made a legitimate Covenant with them specifying that IF they could keep their part in the contract that is what he would do for them. And he had gathered them and grew them in Egypt for that purpose that he could demonstrate with them that because of sin man's zeal by itself is not enough to enable man to keep a contract with God. So he most certainly directed them while in the desert with that purpose in mind. And he is not using the USA or any other nation that way. He is not even using modern Israel that way any longer. What he did in connection with that ancient Israel was to lead them to Christ and all is fulfilled in Christ.

I think you may of perhaps thought I was saying the modern fleshly Israel is yet God's people. I am not.

The scriptures you posted do accurately show us how all is fulfilled in Christ through faith like that of Abraham.

 

[razzelflabben]

If you are showing where that remnant are gathered you are correct. If you are saying God did not give that fleshly nation a legitimate chance to be that holy nation and kingdom of priests to him, well, you already know God does not promise anyone anything he is not willing to give them.

God knew they would fail by law due to sin. But that does not alter that his offer to them was legitimate. He made a legitimate Covenant with them specifying that IF they could keep their part in the contract that is what he would do for them. And he had gathered them and grew them in Egypt for that purpose that he could demonstrate with them that because of sin man's zeal by itself is not enough to enable man to keep a contract with God. So he most certainly directed them while in the desert with that purpose in mind. And he is not using the USA or any other nation that way. He is not even using modern Israel that way any longer. What he did in connection with that ancient Israel was to lead them to Christ and all is fulfilled in Christ.

I think you may of perhaps thought I was saying the modern fleshly Israel is yet God's people. I am not.

The scriptures you posted do accurately show us how all is fulfilled in Christ through faith like that of Abraham.

I have no idea what your point is suppose to be but then again that seems to be the case more often than not.

The passages posted clearly show that the promise was given to all men...did Israel sin? well duh...many times over. Is salvation by law? Of course not, even the passages presented show it is by faith/grace.

What other point are you trying to make? I was using scripture to show that the covenant was not for the Jews alone but for all who come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through faith, just as scripture says.

 

[Buzz_B]

I have no idea what your point is suppose to be but then again that seems to be the case more often than not.

The passages posted clearly show that the promise was given to all men...did Israel sin? well duh...many times over. Is salvation by law? Of course not, even the passages presented show it is by faith/grace.

What other point are you trying to make? I was using scripture to show that the covenant was not for the Jews alone but for all who come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through faith, just as scripture says.

Being as the original post was not to you, I kind of had the feeling I was being a fool to let you drag me back in again.

You impress me as just seeking to argue. Sorry, that is not my cup of tea.

 

[razzelflabben]

Being as the original post was not to you, I kind of had the feeling I was being a fool to let you drag me back in again.

You impress me as just seeking to argue. Sorry, that is not my cup of tea.

lol I actually hate arguing which is once again evidence that the accusation is not from God...what I do hate is people who twist the word of God to say something it does not say...to that end I posted scripture to clarify what seemed unclear in your post. So your accusation once again falls on God not me.

 

[Buzz_B]

lol I actually hate arguing which is once again evidence that the accusation is not from God...what I do hate is people who twist the word of God to say something it does not say...to that end I posted scripture to clarify what seemed unclear in your post. So your accusation once again falls on God not me.

Whatever.

Be at peace.

 

[razzelflabben]

Whatever.

Be at peace.

so, you refuse the correction of scripture while proclaiming peace? Why?

 

[Buzz_B]

so, you refuse the correction of scripture while proclaiming peace? Why?

What is your understanding of Luke 17:21?

 

[razzelflabben]

What is your understanding of Luke 17:21?

well, you have been talking to me long enough to know that the first thing I will do when someone asks a question like this is go to context...so let's post the context then go through it bit by bit.

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,

the first clue to the meaning is here, the question that is being answered is WHEN is the Kingdom of God come....

Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Now with this proclamation by Jesus Himself we can conclude one of three things (will will get to the rest in a moment) either 1. Jesus is the Kingdom 2. the believers are the Kingdom of God or 3. both are true....so let's keep looking.

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things by this generation.

here Jesus seems to be telling us that He is NOT the Kingdom of God for the Kingdom is more permanent but that He will usher in the Kingdom...which btw is consistent with previous things I have said but we aren't done with the context yet.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Now we have a history lesson to clarify that people will not expect the Kingdom of God when it comes.
Fair enough, we will not expect it....

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

32 Remember Lot’s wife!
33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Now look at the final conclusion that Jesus gives...we cannot hold onto this life and the things here if we expect to see the Kingdom of God. Now let's cross reference and see if it is consistent with the totality of scripture....John 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.


John 12:25
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


So putting together just the context and nothing else what we can understand is that the Kingdom of God is not of this world and yet the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ and the gospel message of salvation by faith. You see, the passage is asking not where does the HS reside which was our previous discussion but when will the Kingdom of God come and the answer is IN CHRIST...His second coming....why what do you think it means when Jesus is asked WHEN will the Kingdom comes and He answers, when you least expect it?