Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[Gregory Thompson]

There is a difference in USING it and living by it. I know plenty of people who own guns ( This is the rural south) I however know NO one who would start a fight with a gun or otherwise,but you can bet those people would use them for protection if the need arose.

Since it's part of the culture it constitutes living by it. Since it is part of the culture, people who are mentally disturbed or feel ostracized select it as one of the options as an outlet.
.
It's kind of like in the past when cultures would live by the sword and attack one another at a certain season, it was just part of life in those parts of the world. There are war torn countries today as well, but the culture of it is different.

 

[HARK!]

I'm curious where, in the Bible, everyone finds where Jesus said we should buy guns.

Look at intent. Why do you suppose that Yahshua told his disciples to procure weapons? (Against Roman law, might I add.)

I suppose that he told them to gather the most effective weapons readily available, to defend themselves. I don't believe that it was because that he had some exclusive affinity for swords.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a very hot topic that I am sure many have noticed. Both in Christendom and also outside of it as well. I have a stance on this, and I know there are many different stances. I know of people personally, that are believers that feel that we should have weapons in our home for defense, and also those that do not believe we should defend in a way that brings bodily harm to anyone? It seems that this is a topic that is extremely controversial.

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why. I am also interested in knowing from the other perspective, those that are for owning them and do own guns and weapons, and why? Or even if you desire to not own any for that purpose, but are not against someone owning them?

Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good:

Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Trusting in the verses or passages in the Bible on pacifism takes faith. You have to first believe these words in the Bible and you have to take it by faith that God has an ultimate good plan that we cannot always see (No matter what happens to us). The life story of Joseph is a good example of this. What Joseph's brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended to use their evil for the purpose of good. It is the same with Jesus. What appeared to be the death of the disciple's master (which really had upset Peter at first), was the ultimate plan of redemption for all mankind. Something that appeared to be horrible (The death of Jesus), was just the start of something amazing and good. So we cannot always see what God's plan is even when we are to walk in the valley of the shadow of death. For when Job had lost his sons, certain possessions, and his health, he could have denied God and turn away from Him. But Job did not do that. He still continued to believe in the Lord and worship Him (even if he did briefly get angry at God). The idea of pacifism is hard for many of us. Some of you may have been to war. Some of you may be a police officer and you rely on your gun. Some of you may have even saved lives countless times over with the use of violent force. But God's ways are higher than our ways. He calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us. For there are cases where Christians who follow the New Testament's teaching on pacifism who have prayed and or praised God in a potentially violent situation and they were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. Christians are also called to be persecuted or to suffer as Christ had suffered. How can one truly do this if they are on the offensive and or attacking others? We are told to follow the life of Jesus. Yet, nowhere do we see Jesus ever fighting back. Jesus says take up your cross and come follow me. Jesus died on the cross. What would have seemed like the end, was actually something far more. When believers die or suffer for the cause of Christ and it leads to just one soul to the LORD because they see the love, peace, and dedication they have for God (who lives in them), then it is all worth it according to God's ultimate plan for good (Which is to lead as many men as possible to Him). But what about justice in a given situation? Should we stand by as we watch our family or friends or others get hurt? No. We can trust in God and pray to Him and act in a non-violent way so as to protect them. But wouldn't it seem simpler to just end evil men by shooting them? Then how can you witness Christ or the gospel to them if they are dead? Also, is not God in control of all things? Can anything truly bad happen to you without God's say so? But again, you might ask: What about justice in a given situation? If God told you to trust in Him and His plan of not acting violent, and something bad happens, do you think that evil or evil men will not be judged in the end? Can you also see God's entire good plan working in your life in trusting Him like with the story of Joseph and his brothers? Are you God to be able to see His greater plan for good?

New Testament Scripture That Supports Pacifism:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?

Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 6:27-29
27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

Luke 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Romans 12:17-21
17 Never repay anyone evil for evil. Take thought for what is right and gracious and proper in the sight of everyone. - AMP
18 and do your best to live at peace with everyone. - CEV
19 Christian brothers, never pay back someone for the bad he has done to you. Let the anger of God take care of the other person. - NLV for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

1 Peter 2:21-23
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:4 We do not use those things to fight with that the world uses. We use the things God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil.

Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man,

John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 10:28-31
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

James 3:18 The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 16:20 The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren ... be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

Galatians 1:13 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

1 Peter 4:12-16
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind...

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:3 - and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

Philippians 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Popular Common Objections:

Luke 22:36 is a popular objection because Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword.

Here is a great article explaining this one in great detail.

WHY did Jesus ask His disciples to BUY A SWORD? He said: “he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one”. (Luke 22:36)

As for John the Baptist's silence on not telling the soldiers to quite the military in Luke 3:10-14 (Which is similar to Jesus's encounter with the Roman Centurion - Luke 7:1-10):

Check out this article here:

http://enemylove.com/did-john-the-baptist-tell-the-repentant-soldiers-to-leave-the-military/

As for Jesus not telling the Roman Centurion not to quite the military or to do no more violence in Luke 7:1-10:

Well, you have to realize that salvation did not go out unto the Gentiles yet. They first preached the gospel to Israel first.

As for Romans 13:4 that says,

...for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is talking about how unbelieving authorities or nations (like a government's leaders, armies, and police) who are God's ministers to execute wrath or judgment on those who do evil. This is not talking about believers because it is telling the reader to be subject unto this higher powers (Romans 13:1). It does not tell the reader that they are these higher powers. The reader that Paul is writing to are believers (not the higher powers who are in authority whereby we are to be subject unto). In fact, God used both Assyria and Babylon to punish His people. So we can see that these nations were God's ministers of justice (Which would be in line with what is said in Romans 13).

 

[PloverWing]

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why.

I am guided by the principle that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and we are explicitly told that we are to love those neighbors who are our enemies.

I have, with reluctance, given up the pure pacifism of my younger years. There are some situations in which the best response I can think of is a violent one, in defense of myself or another. Even so, even in violent self-defense, I am still fighting a person who is a beloved child of God. I would aim to use the least violent response possible (cause pain instead of injury, or injury instead of death) to accomplish the necessary defense. I specifically practice non-lethal self-defense techniques in my martial arts training, because of these ethical considerations.

With this in mind, I choose not to own a gun. I might use a lesser weapon -- a staff or stick, say -- but not a gun. Guns cause a tremendous amount of damage very quickly, much more damage than I choose to inflict on an attacker.

I do recognize that the issue of using violence in defense of self or others is not an easy question, and I respect those who choose differently, as long as they have taken these complex moral questions into account.

 

[seventysevens]

I believe you misused that verse.
1 Timothy chapter 5 verse 8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Hmmm could be that he is providing safety , security and protection to/for his family/household. Perhaps if your life was about to end because some evil person is about to harm/kill you and the evil person was prevented from doing you harm by a person who shot the evil intruder you would be thanking that person for saving your life

 

[Ken Rank]

Did you check your labels? I'd have too to know for sure about the mixed fabrics. Actually I have no problems with the things I listed, you're the one who seems to want us to live under the Law, not me.

I didn't tell you to do what I do.. I specifically said to do as you are convicted and that we will probably both be corrected when Yeshua returns. How you get that I want you to live like I do from ANYTHING I said is beyond me. But, this is normal from folks like you. I say, "obey" and you hear "unto salvation." Odd but it is what it is. No reason for us to continue discussing anything seeing you'll just add more words to my own thoughts.

 

[GenemZ]

i don't believe guns are any more evil than guard dogs or locks on doors.

Hi Brinny...

How many here know this passage?

Jesus said.....

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house,
his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21​

grace and peace!

 

[brinny]

Hi Brinny...

How many here know this passage? If they do? Why do they suppress it?

Jesus said.....

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

grace and peace!

Excellent and wise verse, thank you for sharing it!!!

Amen.

 

[Buzz_B]

LUKE 22

36 Yet He said to them, "But now, he who has a purse let him pick it up, likewise a beggar's bag also; and he who has none, let him sell his cloak and buy a sword."

In those days a sword was necessary to traveling, used to clear brush and defend against wild bores as well as other dangerous animals which lived and roamed the wilderness areas between cities. Unlike guns, a sword was a utility which came in useful many different ways.

The statement at Luke 22:36 is not an approval to use swords to kill people and anyone who thinks so are failing to consider that those being told to buy swords were also under obligation to walk as Jesus Christ and be willing to die as did Jesus Christ. Are we truly walking as Christ if we kill others so that they cannot kill us? Is that what Christ modeled to us?

The fact is that one of the major reasons for the Jew's rejection of Jesus as the Christ is that he refused to make war upon other nations who were cruelly oppressing the kingdom of Judah and killing Jews in the process. Yet, Jesus could have asked his Father in heaven to give the angels charge to defend himself and all Judea and he did not even do that.

In more modern times there is a rule of law called 'Reasonable Force' which has been becoming more and more unspoken about these last days. People think that they are justified to kill others if they have broken into their house and many do not hesitate to do so whether or not their life is actually threatened. So already we see that the push to allow all to have guns is but one more force to advance the evil which inevitably must befall us all as we draw deeper to the end of this world. Nothing will be made better, but worse.

Edit: What is God's way of dealing with our defense?

Romans 13:4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (KJV)

Rather than individuals taking it upon themselves, God advocates that we look to our governments to handle the problem.

For many that leaves the question of what to do if they feel their government is not handling the problem. That will happen but it is not an excuse for us as individuals to take justice which God has not authorized to us as individuals into our own hands. If we kill by accident in the course of trying to protect ourselves, that is another matter. Our goal as individuals ought be only to immobilize our offender until he can be turned over to the government whom God has sanctioned to execute justice upon them.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I posted some facts about mass shootings I found...speaking of which got a link to support your post?
tulc(is fond of facts)

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It seems incredibly difficult to make a case that it is immoral to use a gun in the defence of oneself or one's family (especially the latter) in the event their lives are endangered. We could extend that beyond just personal protection to defensive warfare, should the country being invaded just let itself be invaded without resistance (Poland WW2 or further back in history Eastern Rome during the Islamic conquests)?

I consider it extremely venerable to endure suffering for the sake of Christ or from just evil people in general (Matt 5:39), but I don't think this makes the use of force in self preservation or in defence of the helpless a sin. Paul tells us civil authorities wield the sword for a reason, it is a force they can potentially use in order to keep society ordered. I could not imagine God condemning the man who stopped the Church attack the other day when his motivation was to stop the evil doer from doing more damage.

Should the pacifist sit and watch his wife be abused and do nothing if he has the potential to stop the abuse? I don't think so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems incredibly difficult to make a case that it is immoral to use a gun in the defence of oneself or one's family (especially the latter) in the event their lives are endangered. We could extend that beyond just personal protection to defensive warfare, should the country being invaded just let itself be invaded without resistance (Poland WW2 or further back in history Eastern Rome during the Islamic conquests)?

I consider it extremely venerable to endure suffering for the sake of Christ or from just evil people in general (Matt 5:39), but I don't think this makes the use of force in self preservation or in defence of the helpless a sin. Paul tells us civil authorities wield the sword for a reason, it is a force they can potentially use in order to keep society ordered. I could not imagine God condemning the man who stopped the Church attack the other day when his motivation was to stop the evil doer from doing more damage.

Should the pacifist sit and watch his wife be abused and do nothing if he has the potential to stop the abuse? I don't think so.

I think any person with a heart would want to step in and stop abuse, but to use violence to kill or seriously hurt your attacker is not the way. We are still called to love our enemies. There are non-lethal alternatives to protect oneself and others you love.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think any person with a heart would want to step in and stop abuse, but to use violence to kill or seriously hurt your attacker is not the way. We are still called to love our enemies. There are non-lethal alternatives to protect oneself and others you love.

I would agree that non-lethality should be preferred but it cannot be an available action in every circumstance. There numerous hypothetical scenarios but we need only look at the recent Church attack. The attacker was indiscriminately killing men, women and children and was stopped by a man with a rifle shooting with intent to kill the attacker and stop the murders. He was not wrong to chase down this man and stop him with violent force because he was a risk to others, had just committed 26 gruesome murders and could have killed a lot more. When you violate the moral law of society and God you open yourself up to recompense(in this case death), be that by the state or by individuals.

Now if this murderer were to have given up and surrendered and then be killed, then that is not justifiable but he didn't, he continued to pose a threat right until the end.

I am curious, how far do you think we should extend the principle of loving one's enemy?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems incredibly difficult to make a case that it is immoral to use a gun in the defence of oneself or one's family (especially the latter) in the event their lives are endangered. We could extend that beyond just personal protection to defensive warfare, should the country being invaded just let itself be invaded without resistance (Poland WW2 or further back in history Eastern Rome during the Islamic conquests)?

I consider it extremely venerable to endure suffering for the sake of Christ or from just evil people in general (Matt 5:39), but I don't think this makes the use of force in self preservation or in defence of the helpless a sin. Paul tells us civil authorities wield the sword for a reason, it is a force they can potentially use in order to keep society ordered. I could not imagine God condemning the man who stopped the Church attack the other day when his motivation was to stop the evil doer from doing more damage.

Should the pacifist sit and watch his wife be abused and do nothing if he has the potential to stop the abuse? I don't think so.

Also, I don't think certain jobs are for Christians like the presidency, or being a sniper for the US, or making weapons of mass destruction, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would agree that non-lethality should be preferred but it cannot be an available action in every circumstance. There numerous hypothetical scenarios but we need only look at the recent Church attack. The attacker was indiscriminately killing men, women and children and was stopped by a man with a rifle shooting with intent to kill the attacker and stop the murders. He was not wrong to chase down this man and stop him with violent force because he was a risk to others, had just committed 26 gruesome murders and could have killed a lot more. When you violate the moral law of society and God you open yourself up to recompense(in this case death), be that by the state or by individuals.

Now if this murderer were to have given up and surrendered and then be killed, then that is not justifiable but he didn't, he continued to pose a threat right until the end.

I am curious, how far do you think we should extend the principle of loving one's enemy?

God is ultimately the giver and taker of life. So nobody can die without God's say so. Death is not the end. So it is not some tragic end to a believer's life. For believers go to live with God. God has a greater plan that we cannot see. God is ultimately in control. Yes, it is horrible that they died that way, but we are all going to die someday. Believers go to be with the Lord.

God requires obedience from us. He clearly desires us to not hurt others in retaliation according to the New Covenant.

Please see all the verses in my post #63 to learn more.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

This is a very hot topic that I am sure many have noticed. Both in Christendom and also outside of it as well. I have a stance on this, and I know there are many different stances. I know of people personally, that are believers that feel that we should have weapons in our home for defense, and also those that do not believe we should defend in a way that brings bodily harm to anyone? It seems that this is a topic that is extremely controversial.

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why. I am also interested in knowing from the other perspective, those that are for owning them and do own guns and weapons, and why? Or even if you desire to not own any for that purpose, but are not against someone owning them?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Where Christians get the idea that we are not to protect ourselves really make me wonder.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

God is ultimately the giver and taker of life. So nobody can die without God's say so. Death is not the end. So it is not some tragic end to a believer's life. For believers go to live with God. God has a greater plan that we cannot see. God is ultimately in control. Yes, it is horrible that they died that way, but we are all going to die someday. Believers go to be with the Lord.

God requires obedience from us. He clearly desires us to not hurt others in retaliation according to the New Covenant.

Please see all the verses in my post #63 to learn more.

I would agree with you in regards to a non-retaliation principle in general. Yet this does not speak to the immediate situation. I would like to clarify, is it okay to attack someone in the defence of another? Or should we follow completely literally and as strictly as possible Jesus' command to turn the other cheek and let the person do their worst to us or others?

 

[kiwimac]

The early church was entirely pacific so much so that until around the 300s CE you could not become a church member if you were either a police man or soldier.

 

[SBC]

...the one and only time a follower of Jesus uses a sword in the New Testament Jesus rebuked the guy using it and healed the person he struck. I think if you want to use the Bible to support us owning a weapon then we'd have to follow Jesus example and do like He did. I'd also ask: where did Jesus ever mention His followers owning guns in the Bible?
tulc(would be interested in that last bit most of all)

Jesus came to earth to give His flesh for the life of the world.
He decided when that would happen.

Do like Jesus did?
Jesus says;

John 15
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Is a thief, rapist, car jacker, kid-napper, etc. your friends?

Jesus' disciples - owing guns? Sword was the choice of the day.

Luke 22

1. [36] Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Be prepared, and hope you will never need it.
A-kin to any insurance.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Problem is not guns, it is evil. Evil is the issue. We have a society that has turned their backs on the God and his laws. We have a society of do as thou wilt. We have a society drugged up, boozed up, and medicated 10 ways from Sunday. We have a society with shifting morals that embraces every form of deviancy and debauchery. This incident in Texas was of the devil and was because that kid hated everything that God stands for. Only pure evil would kill innocent children, women, and kids in a place of worship.

I think there was a guy who summed it up best a long time ago. Turns out he was quiet the prophet.