Christians for 9/11 Truth

[oldbetang]

We all know people use metal and steel interchangeably so this is more blatant intellectual dishonesty. No different than when I proved PM was wrong about flight intercepts you actually changed the subject to the Towers because the facts blew your position to bits.

If anyone is being blatantly dishonest here it is you. You didn't prove that PM was wrong about flight intercepts. You've shown that there were plenty of scrambles and lots of intercepts but you've failed to show that those intercepts were made over North America.

The fact that people use metal and steel interchangeably is the point that I was making. You've just bolstered my argument. The few that referenced steel were really just using that term to describe the molten metal that they were seeing. There wasn't any molten steel found on site.

 

[oldbetang]

I will after you write out the best evidence hanjour was the pilot is nothing but a guess.

Call it an educated guess if you wish. Which it is in reality. We don't have 100% proof that Hani Hanjour was at the controls. However, he is the most likely suspect by far. I'm not aware of any of the other passengers being holder of a commercial pilot's license.

So if not Hanjour , then who?

 

[oldbetang]

To the others who have posted here since last night, I'll address your posts later. I'm off for a bit.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

If anyone is being blatantly dishonest here it is you. You didn't prove that PM was wrong about flight intercepts. You've shown that there were plenty of scrambles and lots of intercepts but you've failed to show that those intercepts were made over North America.

The fact that people use metal and steel interchangeably is the point that I was making. You've just bolstered my argument. The few that referenced steel were really just using that term to describe the molten metal that they were seeing. There wasn't any molten steel found on site.

What in the name of truth are you talking about? NO MOLTEN STEEL? Its one of the few saved relics of 911 a big clump of molten steel and concrete, does some one need to put a piece in your hand before you believe it.......You are just who their talking about on another thread, you will say anything completely disregarding undeniable facts.........Molten steel is a fact, how it happened your welcome to argue but denying its existance is just plain ignorant

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

To the others who have posted here since last night, I'll address your posts later. I'm off for a bit.

I think you've been off for some time now, maybe you can contact disinformationist headquarters and see if you can try a new stragedy simply denying facts only makes you seem uncrediable

 

[Martingale]

I think you've been off for some time now, maybe you can contact disinformationist headquarters and see if you can try a new stragedy simply denying facts only makes you seem uncrediable

do you think bushdidit? there's a picture of him somewhere, with a blasting machine in his hands, and wires leading to the WTC. its really convincing. I saw it on the internets.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

If anyone is being blatantly dishonest here it is you. You didn't prove that PM was wrong about flight intercepts. You've shown that there were plenty of scrambles and lots of intercepts but you've failed to show that those intercepts were made over North America.

The fact that people use metal and steel interchangeably is the point that I was making. You've just bolstered my argument. The few that referenced steel were really just using that term to describe the molten metal that they were seeing. There wasn't any molten steel found on site.

Rotfl!!! Okay, so the GAO Report that cited hundreds of intercepts were not done in North America? Wholly crap dude!!! What will be the next pathetic excuse for ignoring the facts? The Continental Air Defense where the planes were doing intecepts only did them in......NORTH AMERICA.

No molten steel found on site? Good grief.....no matter how many times you ignore facts I would always feel sorry for you and respond anyways. Not any more.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

do you think bushdidit? there's a picture of him somewhere, with a blasting machine in his hands, and wires leading to the WTC. its really convincing. I saw it on the internets.

Bush? couldn't cordinate his own day let alone anything this complex, you don't think the president actually makes any decisions on his own do you?.....ha ha ha the ones that do that end up dead, read your history, Truman tried to warn the American people as he was leaving but people didn't listen

 

[MarkSB]

Sorry, but that is fantasy physics. Steel and concrete crushing down does not shoot large pieces of beam out sideways. And what is cutting the steel in the first place?

Vertical beams deflect when an axial load is applied. A subsequent failure in the beam could cause it to spring outward (just as your narrarator notes, and dismisses in the video you posted), though I'm not sure what horizontal speeds this would acheive.

Also steel beams do not have to be "cut" to fail. Vertical beams fail due to buckling, horizontal beams can fail due to bending stress. As I pointed out previously in this thread - in the videos, just before the collapse, you can see the building buckle near the point of impact.

Also, I'll ask again - if demo charges were used, why can they not be heard in the videos?

As for the steel being shipped off to China, I would say that it raises alot of questions. It does not however, make your entire version of the events any more plausible.

 

[ManFromUncle]

Vertical beams deflect when an axial load is applied. A subsequent failure in the beam could cause it to spring outward (just as your narrarator notes, and dismisses in the video you posted), though I'm not sure what horizontal speeds this would acheive.

Also steel beams do not have to be "cut" to fail. Vertical beams fail due to buckling, horizontal beams can fail due to bending stress. As I pointed out previously in this thread, in the videos, just before the collapse, you can see the building buckle near the point of impact.

Also, I'll ask again - if demo charges were used, why can they not be heard in the videos?

As for the steel being shipped off to China, I would say that it raises alot of questions. It does not however, make your entire version of the events any more plausible.

Hundreds of firefighters testified how they heard explosions in a rapid sequence down, funny how none of it made it into the 911 Commission Report. You can see the building buckle near the impact pint because thermite charges are melting the steel in the core, like this:

YouTube - Thermite vs. Car


Then the final demlition sequence of cutter charges and kicker charges, designed to throw the cut pieces far away so there is nothing but air for the rest to go through, so it looks like a natural free-fall.

Good trick. Except if it was a gravitational collapse, most of the junk would be in the foortprint. Not a quarter mile away.

911 truthers and Ron Paul supporters will be rounded up first and sent to death. By the time we believe it, it will be too late. The anti-Christ is not coming. The anti-Christ is here. It's name is Israel.

 

[Brak]

That's quite an impressive map there. So...let me get this straight...WTC1 and WTC2 collapsed. And debris from their collapses caused 7 WTC, way up there on the top, to collapse. But 6 WTC didn't? 3 WTC had 4 stories still standing, and it is sandwiched right in between both towers.

 

[oldbetang]

This is true. Aluminum cools quickly and is silvery in color. Molten steel glows orange. Here is a shovel at ground Zero picking up some of the red-hot, partially molten steel:

and this is what molten aluminum looks like

images from the blog:
Molten Metal - a 9/11 Smoking Gun

Is that molten metal in the first pic? It's really hard to say for sure looking at the pic. There is no apparent flow. If it was molten steel it would be pouring off the bucket. What we may be looking at there is a very hot piece of steel.The orange glow would not be inconsistent with the USGS findings of maximum temperatures of 1341 degrees F. But as I said, it's difficult to say for sure just by looking at that one pic.

As to the second pic, that is of pure molten aluminum. The molten aluminum at the Ground zero site would not have been pure. As NIST explained, the molten aluminum " was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace."

 

[oldbetang]

What in the name of truth are you talking about? NO MOLTEN STEEL? Its one of the few saved relics of 911 a big clump of molten steel and concrete, does some one need to put a piece in your hand before you believe it.......You are just who their talking about on another thread, you will say anything completely disregarding undeniable facts.........Molten steel is a fact, how it happened your welcome to argue but denying its existance is just plain ignorant

Where is this big clump of molten steel and concrete? Direct me to where I can verify its existence. Put up or shut up. Until then, it remains a fact the no molten steel was found on site.

 

[oldbetang]

I think you've been off for some time now, maybe you can contact disinformationist headquarters and see if you can try a new stragedy simply denying facts only makes you seem uncrediable

I don't run my life on your schedule. I'm a busy man. It's my busiest season of the year. If you have a problem with that, too dang bad.

 

[oldbetang]

Rotfl!!! Okay, so the GAO Report that cited hundreds of intercepts were not done in North America? Wholly crap dude!!! What will be the next pathetic excuse for ignoring the facts? The Continental Air Defense where the planes were doing intecepts only did them in......NORTH AMERICA.

Prove it! You haven't done so as of yet. You have not demonstrated that the intercepts were not made offshore.

No molten steel found on site? Good grief.....no matter how many times you ignore facts I would always feel sorry for you and respond anyways. Not any more.

I don't ignore facts. My take on the allegations that molten steel was found on site is just that; it is allegation only. It is unsupported by any real evidence. In fact, it is contrary to well established facts that rule out the possibility of molten steel.

 

[oldbetang]

WTC Molten Metal: Fact or Fiction?

Analysis of the Evidence

That is a must read. It puts the myth of molten steel at ground zero to rest.

 

[oldbetang]

From the above site:

*Solid Orange Slag*

This picture appears in Steven Jones’ current (last checked August 1, 2007) September 2006 “Why Indeed” paper, which also states the photographer to be Frank Silecchia, and that the picture was taken on 9/27/01 according to the photographer’s aid. But is the picture authentic?

We notice the slag being lifted by a metal crane. Note the close proximity between the slag and the exposed hydraulics.

According to Jones’ paper (and confirmed by the charts he references), the color of the solid metal slag indicates a temperature over 845° C.

Yet, mechanical engineering handbooks reveal hydraulics to fail at a fraction of the temperature of Jones’ slag:

Machinery Lubrication – “Hydraulic Equipment Reliability: Beyond Contamination Control”
Quote (emphasis added): “Hydraulic fluid temperatures above 82°C (180ºF) damage most seal compounds and accelerate oil degradation. A single overtemperature event of sufficient magnitude can permanently damage all the seals in an entire hydraulic system, resulting in numerous leaks. The by-products of thermal degradation of the oil (soft particles) can cause reliability problems such as valve-spool stiction and filter clogging.”


Machinery Lubrication – “ Symptoms of Common Hydraulic Problems and Their Root Causes”
Quote (emphasis added): “Fluid temperatures above 180°F (82°C) can damage seals and accelerate degradation of the fluid. This means that the operation of any hydraulic system at temperatures above 180°F is detrimental and should be avoided. Fluid temperature is too high when viscosity falls below the optimum value for the system’s components. The temperature at which this occurs is dependent on the viscosity grade of the fluid in the system and can be well below 180°F.”


Machine Design – “Predicting the life of hydraulic hose”
Quote (emphasis added): “Temperature range recommended for typical rubber hose spans about –40 to 212°F [212° F = 100° C]. Fluid or ambient temperatures outside these bounds impact service life. Plasticizers leach out of elastomers faster at high temperatures, though the rate depends on the actual temperature and duration. Heat-related failure is evident when the cover shows signs of hardening and cracking, and the hose shape takes on a permanent set.
Temperatures below recommended will also shorten service life. This problem is evident when the inner tube shows signs of stiffness and cracks. Specials are available for either extreme: Low-temperature hoses for service to –67°F and high-temperature versions for applications exceeding 300°F. [300° F = 149° C]”

Jones’ slag is over 845° C, yet hydraulic fluid systems fail above 82° C.

The recommended highest temperature for standard hydraulic rubber hoses is 100° C, with special heavy duty hoses available for temperatures above 149° C.

Given the vast temperature differences between the slag and the maximum operating temperatures for hydraulics, is it plausible for Jones’ photo to be real? The temperature of the slag is over 10 times greater than the maximum allowable temperature for hydraulic fluid systems.
​

 

[oldbetang]

Hundreds of firefighters testified how they heard explosions in a rapid sequence down,

Citation required!

 

[oldbetang]

WTC Molten Metal: Fact or Fiction?


Hey TGIO, what do you make of that disinformationist"?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Prove it! You haven't done so as of yet. You have not demonstrated that the intercepts were not made offshore.

I don't ignore facts. My take on the allegations that molten steel was found on site is just that; it is allegation only. It is unsupported by any real evidence. In fact, it is contrary to well established facts that rule out the possibility of molten steel.

The Report was for NORAD intercepts. NORAD covers.....North America. That is why it is called North American Air Defense. HaahHahahaha!!! See ya!

Eta: forgot to add this excerpt from the GAO Report:

"While NORAD is a joint U.S.-Canadian command, we limited our review
to U.S. air defense forces only."

So go ahead and ask for more proof the scrambles intercepts were in North America. It will only further prove to others what I've been saying.