Christians for 9/11 Truth

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RealDealNeverstop

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It's not to say that eyewitnesses don't count for anything, its just that their observations should be verifiable. What one witness calls an explosion, another witness may not - so looking at the video provides a more objective approach. If there were explosions, you should be able to hear them. Is that flawed logic?

It is very flawed logic because you're assuming the recorders were within audible range. Eyewitness testimony needs to be verified and in a time sensitive situation the most important verification is consistency among the witnesses.

Here is a good analogy:

Car accidents require assigning who was at fault and the damage from the vehicles are not always capable of proving who made the error. In that situation the primary evidence is witnesses. The majority of accidents cannot be investigated by sound because the auditory aspect is absent. This forces reliance on the visual recording of eyewitneses who were there so eyewitness testimony is crucial. The Towers have video/visual recording but sound is mitigated by immediate range noise. This is why testimony from those in the Towers who were tryng to escape is more reliable than a recording done with a zoom recorder hundreds of feet away. We have several separate witnesses giving the same testimonies about hearing explosions.
 
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MarkSB

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Since there were numerous videos could you provide three with the distance from the towers of each one?

There is another crucial point of consideration: Zoom. Most recorders have the option of zooming in the visual recording but the sound does not zoom in with it. In order for your claim to be supported you need to provide two facts:

Minimum decibel rating for the cutting agent.

Exact distance of video recorders from the Towers.

For examples of my point watch videos of the collapses and pay close attention to sound. (Also do it with your eyes closed) What I noticed is people standing right by the recorders can be heard over the sound of the collapse itself.

True, but I'm going off the assumption that the explosions should be louder than the collapse, and since the collapse can be heard in several of the videos, the explosions should be easy to hear as well.

I'm no explosives expert, but from the videos I've seen of buildings being demo'ed, the C4 charges were loud, as one would expect. Although in the videos I've seen, they were set off together and not in sequence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fpv6pxsrOQ

Information on these seems difficult to dig up, maybe I'll have another go at it tomorrow. Intuitively, I would think that demo charges would be easy to hear, whether set off in sequence or not.

Another point I would like to make is on the references which have been made to "exploding concrete." Concrete is not a ductile material, and it does shatter/blow out sideways under a compressive load:

YouTube - ‪Concrete Cylinder Compressive Strength Test‬‏

And remember, this concrete was crushed with a progressively increasing static load. Now just imagine the force of a whole building coming down on it.
 
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socalbeach

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There are many videos on 9-11 with sounds of explosions, in addition to oral testimonies confirming same. There were also patents before then for (thermite based) cutting charges that reduce the sound:

Explosion Sounds a false premise from NIST in WTC 7 investigation
911blogger.com/news/2010-02-22/explosion-sounds-false-premise-nist-wtc-7-investigation

link to English patent
Feb 6, 2001
tinyurl.com/43f8vnz

"Thermite-based cutting devices which employ a cutting flame produce virtually no extended shock wave and generate relatively little over pressure. Thermite-based cutting devices do not present the same health and safety hazards which are attendant upon explosive shape charge cutting devices."

fwiw
 
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Martingale

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There are many videos on 9-11 with sounds of explosions, in addition to oral testimonies confirming same. There were also patents before then for (thermite based) cutting charges that reduce the sound:

Explosion Sounds a false premise from NIST in WTC 7 investigation
911blogger.com/news/2010-02-22/explosion-sounds-false-premise-nist-wtc-7-investigation

link to English patent
Feb 6, 2001
tinyurl.com/43f8vnz

"Thermite-based cutting devices which employ a cutting flame produce virtually no extended shock wave and generate relatively little over pressure. Thermite-based cutting devices do not present the same health and safety hazards which are attendant upon explosive shape charge cutting devices."

fwiw

cleverly disguised as secretaries and clerks, the demo team wired a dozen floors during lunch hour.

don't be ridiculous, They used steel eating termites.
 
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oldbetang

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That article has absolutely nothing to do with the GAO Report as the Report was published in 1994 and the article was written in 2005 and speaks about the year 2000. That article has absolutely nothing to do with the GAO report....but keep making embarrassing responses.

Yet you still haven't offered proof that all NORAD intercepts are made over North America. Popular Mechanics itself points out that there was no domestic ADIZ, pre-911. That prior to 9/11 all NORAD interceptions except one were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). What part of "offshore" don't you understand?


 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Witnesses hearing explosions during fires is nothing new. Unless the conspirators have now moved on to controlled demolitions of private housing......

Smoke rolls from house after witnesses report hearing explosion
Updated: Monday, 04 Apr 2011, 1:12 PM EDT

DAYTON, Ohio (WDTN) - Firefighters responded to a Dayton house fire after receiving reports of a loud explosion.
Flames were spotted in the 1000 block of Xenia Avenue Monday morning.
When crews arrived at the scene, large amounts of smoke were coming from the chimney and basement windows.
"Crews made a fast, aggressive interior attack. Found the basement and went in and distinguished the fire," said District Chief Rennes Bowers.
Investigators are still trying to determine the cause.

Explosion, house fire investigated in Lee’s Summit
Posted: 04/23/2011
By: Kevin Mitchell
LEE'S SUMMIT, Missouri - Lee’s Summit police and fire departments are investigating an explosion at a condo building in Lee’s Summit.
The fire was reported around 12:45 p.m. in the 1800 block of NE Knollbrook.
A neighbor reported hearing a loud boom, then several smaller pops.
"I heard an explosion as I was sitting on the couch ran outside to see what it was and then ran back in and grab my dog and my purse and dialed 911. It was a big explosion," said Sheri Dunn.
The explosion littered the street with debris, and a garage door from the building was blasted across the street.
The Fire Marshal's Office, ATF and Missouri Gas Energy are involved in investigating the cause of the explosion.
Nobody was hurt in the blast or the fire that followed it, but two cats did die.


LANCASTER, Calif. ( KTLA) -- A woman was killed and her husband seriously burned in an explosive house fire in Lancaster.

The fire was reported around 10:30 p.m. Thursday along W. 12th Street, near New Grove.

One neighbor who initially heard several explosions said her husband ran outside and found a man stumbling out of the burning home. She says the man yelled that his wife was still in the living room, but there was no time to save her.

"As my husband turned around, the window blew out and it was too late for anything else," she said.

A 2-ALARM HOUSE FIRE in York County, Pennsylvania, Friday afternoon destroyed a family home while the occupants were out shopping. When neighbors noticed the house afire, it was already well underway and the responding fire units from Pleasant Hill VFD could see the heavy smoke from 5 miles away.
The alarm was dispatched at 2:33 in the afternoon and the first-in units found the house "90% involved." The fire was in a non-hydrant, rural area and a 2nd was struck to establish a tanker shuttle.
Before the FD arrived, the neighbors reported hearing several explosions coming from the house.
 
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socalbeach

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One would think that NY firefighters know the difference between electrical and gas explosions in typical fires, and explosions used to bring down a building. I've only skimmed this article, but there are 118 firefighters out of 503 who report explosions and support the EH (explosive hypothesis), and 10 who support the NEH (non explosive hypothesis),

journalof911studies.com/articles/Article_5_118Witnesses_WorldTradeCenter.pdf

"... We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions..."
 
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Skaloop

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One would think that NY firefighters know the difference between electrical and gas explosions in typical fires, and explosions used to bring down a building.

Except that these were no typical fires, and no typical buildings. How many NY firefighters had witnessed the collapse of 110 story building before 9/11?

I've only skimmed this article, but there are 118 firefighters out of 503 who report explosions and support the EH (explosive hypothesis), and 10 who support the NEH (non explosive hypothesis),

Again, they are firefighters, not explosives experts. And what about the other 375 firefighters?
 
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socalbeach

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Except that these were no typical fires, and no typical buildings. How many NY firefighters had witnessed the collapse of 110 story building before 9/11?

Again, they are firefighters, not explosives experts. And what about the other 375 firefighters?
First question is easy, zero, since steel framed bldgs had never collapsed from fires before (or after) 9-11, and I assume any 110+ story bldg would be steel framed.

The remaining 375 firefighters didn't express an opinion for or against the EH or the NEH. One doesn't need to be an expert to see all 3 bldgs were brought down by explosives, one just needs an understanding of h.s. physics.
 
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Skaloop

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First question is easy, zero, since steel framed bldgs had never collapsed from fires before (or after) 9-11, and I assume any 110+ story bldg would be steel framed.

The remaining 375 firefighters didn't express an opinion for or against the EH or the NEH. One doesn't need to be an expert to see all 3 bldgs were brought down by explosives, one just needs an understanding of h.s. physics.

Sorry, but high school physics in not anywhere near adequate to understand the forces and effects of the sorts of masses and dynamics involved in the collapse of the towers. Nor does high school physics deal with explosions.
 
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oldbetang

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but there are 118 firefighters out of 503 who report explosions and support the EH (explosive hypothesis), and 10 who support the NEH (non explosive hypothesis),


Let's see the names of these 118 firefighters who support the explosive hypothesis. I'm extremely doubtful that even a handful support such a thing. In fact, I'm not aware of a single firefighter who was on site on 9/11 who could rightfully be considered a Truther. Certainly none that have declared themselves to be.
 
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It's not to say that eyewitnesses don't count for anything, its just that their observations should be verifiable. What one witness calls an explosion, another witness may not - so looking at the video provides a more objective approach. If there were explosions, you should be able to hear them. Is that flawed logic?
No! the flawed logic is this! hundreds of eye witnesses, some who were even in the blast zones, right there at the buildings in question, they ALL REPORT EXPLOSIONS! and just because you can't put your fingers in the holes you won't believe these people! quite honestly these people who were eye witnesses are much more reliable, then people who weren't even there and are trying to convince the masses that these people don't know what explosions sound like....or in some cases feel like. LOGIC is right in front of your face, although to believe it you will have to break the glass pedestal you have set these figure heads on, who were involved, even if their knowing was only standing by and watching it unfold, as its appearent many of them aren't smart enough to pull somthing this big off. That same logic says a group of terrorist, are also incapable of what went down on 911, simply dumb luck is not a logical answer.....if it is...your not using logic to make your decision
 
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Let's see the names of these 118 firefighters who support the explosive hypothesis. I'm extremely doubtful that even a handful support such a thing. In fact, I'm not aware of a single firefighter who was on site on 9/11 who could rightfully be considered a Truther. Certainly none that have declared themselves to be.
theres a whole website dedicated for firefighters for truth, even if 118 firefighters from 911 came to your house and told you personally, you would find some other excuse not to believe them. Just face it it wouldn't matter if Bush came forward himself and confessed he knew about it, you would simply say he's nuts
 
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oldbetang

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theres a whole website dedicated for firefighters for truth, even if 118 firefighters from 911 came to your house and told you personally, you would find some other excuse not to believe them. Just face it it wouldn't matter if Bush came forward himself and confessed he knew about it, you would simply say he's nuts

I'm aware of the firefighters for truth group. I'm not very impressed with them. Now, you show me a 9/11 firefighters for truth and then you'd have something. But you can't do that because there aren't any 9/11 firefighters who are truthers.

There are not 118 firefighters from 9/11 who support the explosive hypothesis. You've been suckered into believing otherwise by the likes of David Ray Griffin and other high and mighty prevaricators. Why don't you try thinking for yourself for change? Try actually reading the testimonies of the firefighters yourself.
 
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MarkSB

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No! the flawed logic is this! hundreds of eye witnesses, some who were even in the blast zones, right there at the buildings in question, they ALL REPORT EXPLOSIONS! and just because you can't put your fingers in the holes you won't believe these people! quite honestly these people who were eye witnesses are much more reliable, then people who weren't even there and are trying to convince the masses that these people don't know what explosions sound like....or in some cases feel like. LOGIC is right in front of your face, although to believe it you will have to break the glass pedestal you have set these figure heads on, who were involved, even if their knowing was only standing by and watching it unfold, as its appearent many of them aren't smart enough to pull somthing this big off. That same logic says a group of terrorist, are also incapable of what went down on 911, simply dumb luck is not a logical answer.....if it is...your not using logic to make your decision

Ahh, so this is what sound reasoning looks like. My mistake.
 
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MarkSB

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There are many videos on 9-11 with sounds of explosions, in addition to oral testimonies confirming same.

Then perhaps you could post some of these videos, in which we can hear these progressive explosions as the building collapses.

There were also patents before then for (thermite based) cutting charges that reduce the sound:

Explosion Sounds a false premise from NIST in WTC 7 investigation
911blogger.com/news/2010-02-22/explosion-sounds-false-premise-nist-wtc-7-investigation

link to English patent
Feb 6, 2001
tinyurl.com/43f8vnz

"Thermite-based cutting devices which employ a cutting flame produce virtually no extended shock wave and generate relatively little over pressure. Thermite-based cutting devices do not present the same health and safety hazards which are attendant upon explosive shape charge cutting devices."

fwiw

You were just talking about beams being hurled 600 ft. by the blasts, and now you're saying there were no blasts, instead thermite charges were used?
 
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RealDealNeverstop

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When I had my house fire there was two small explosions...but no explosive devices were used. Explain please, then, how explosions MUST mean explosive devices...

The sound of an explosion is nothing in itself. However, that is not the contention on this issue as several people reported explosions that were just like the kind you hear when buildings are brought down. Im not saying those testimonies alone prove devices were used but they are a piece of evidence that cannot be ignored.
 
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RealDealNeverstop

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Yet you still haven't offered proof that all NORAD intercepts are made over North America. Popular Mechanics itself points out that there was no domestic ADIZ, pre-911. That prior to 9/11 all NORAD interceptions except one were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). What part of "offshore" don't you understand?




I proved the Report reviewed scrambles/intercepts only from US air defenses. Your pathetic attempt to keep distracting is just laughable by common freaking sense. NORAD only has jurisdiction over North America. So put those two facts together and it is easy to see how a Report from only US air defenses from NORAD conducted their business in...NORTH AMERICA.

Im sure you will find another way to ignore the facts. Have fun with that.
 
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