Christians do not "own" morality

[alien444]

I never read the entire Bible and I don't plan to. The concept of a deist being is already suspect from a logical perspective. It's, at best, the answer of "it's possible".

But the theistic claims have yet to come close to any logical coherence and any sort of burden of proof. The parts of the Bible i have read are either 1) basic platitudes and morals a.k.a. generic truths or 2) inconsistent, factually wrong, and morally/logically unjustifiable.

The question is this:

If one can prevent, restrain, inhibit, and subsequently lock away a wrongdoer who is aiming to hurt others, is it still morally justifiable to kill them?

I answer no. Killing people is always a negative. In a world where we could stop all criminals without harming them, we should stop all criminals without harming them. The only reason a killing is justified is when the only safe, for others and yourself, way to handle the unjust in question is to kill them. They must pose a significant threat to other people, including yourself. If there is a way to safely and surely disarm and disable a crazed ax-killer, then the morally right thing to do is to use that safe method.

Obviously, in the real world, people like police officers and the average citizen do not have this luxury available to them. The ax-killer is seconds away from killing an innocent victim, the only safe and sure option to protect that victim is to shoot and possible kill the ax-killer. In this situation, the killing would be justified.

I'll go even further and say that there are situations where executing a person is morally justified. When a murderer cannot be safely restrained and stands a good possibility of hurting another, then killing the individual is morally permissible. If Gadarene, Jeffery Damher, and I are all stranded on a tropical island and Dahmer kills me, Gadarene is justified in killing Damher, even if he could safely and surely subdue Dahmer in the short term. The reason why is that there is no way to maintain that level of safety. He cannot protect himself from Dahmer on a stranded island alone. There are no jails, no safe ways of feeding Dahmer, and no way to ensure Dahmer won't easily kill him later on.

Do you agree with my reasoning that killing is only justifiable in situations where the safety of others is, in a very real way, compromised without killing the wrongdoer in question?

It is and it isn't, that's the problem with reducing incredibly complex issues to black and white situations. (I am talking about the proponents of moral absolutism-not your post) That's what my point was in the OP, moral absolutism cannot exist if there are exceptions. It is either absolute or not. Moral relativism creates a lot of "real world" problems however and is not a good alternative. However, as neurology, evolutionary psychology, and secular philosophy continue to discover more about the brain, ethics, and human nature we get closer to developing theory of morality based on scientific facts, reason, and secularism.
If no, explain.

If yes:

In what instance can an all-powerful and all-knowing being have a justifiable killing, when, in all instances, the being can inhibit the actions others indefinitely through no harmful means? If the only justifiable killing is one where there is no other option, how can a justifiable killing exist for being where there is always another option?

I don't want Bible verses. The Bible has offered me nothing but wasted time, tears, and generic and simplistic platitudes.

I want an intellectual and philosophical response.

If you can't answer my questions, then I have no reason to accept your claims that some of God's genocides were morally justifiable.

Divine Command Theory basically says that whatever God does is moral, and we must live based on seeking approval (heaven) or avoiding punishment (hell). This is obviously, to any thinking person, a horrible way to make moral choices. It's like North Korea, where the Dear Leader makes up the rules as he goes and the citizens have to anticipate his whims and shift there opinions and moral principles. The concept itself is inherently immoral.

 

[Chany]

I don't know what to say to you at the moment as I'm working on something else if your post was addressed to me, not sure. Perhaps another poster could respond to your questions. Sorry

It was aimed at anyone making the claim that an instance of genocide endorsed by an omnipotent and omniscient being as morally justifiable, yourself included. I don't mind who answers, but it would be nice if everyone against me did.

I like debate and discussion; it discovers truth.

 

[Ruthie24]

Part 1:

I believe that the Book of Enoch is the key to understanding tough historical episodes in the Bible. I have many reasons why it was intentionally left out but that is for another thread. For this post we are discussing moral law and I'm suggesting that prior to the days of Noah there were several off shoots of demonic evil beings called nephilim that were the progeny of the rapes and or consensual sex between the Fallen Angels and human daughters to whom I believe were sold to the Fallen Angels for the price of the forbidden knowledge which is the essential message of the Garden of Eden and the reason why the Messiah was sent to redeem our humanity as the ultimate act of love.

The descendants of Adam ane Eve gave or made a pact with the Fallen Angels and gave their essential allegiance to them for this forbidden knowledge. Little did they realize they were going to be enslaved, cannibalized, tortured, and sacrificed, as a result.

The Book of Enoch that I am quoting from is by Dr Joseph B. Lumpkin in the next post.

Part 2 to follow

 

[Devnet]

I'm going to repeat what I asked earlier: Are you really saying that the Nephilim-human hybrids were born evil, as a result of their DNA? That they lacked the capacity (free will) to not be evil? And that rather than fix this defect in DNA expression, God chose to wipe out all of these beings who had no say in their own moral deficit?

I'm also going to add: If Group X is being enslaved, cannibalized, tortured, and sacrificed, how is killing all of Group X a preferable thing to do? It seems incredibly odd to object to some people being killed by killing everyone.

 

[Ruthie24]

Part 2:

Dr Lumpkin suggests that in order to understand our Bible (the Protestant or the Catholic one) we need to go beyond and look at the Book of Enoch which is contained in the Bible of the Ethiopia Christian. There are several books mentioned in the Bible which are not included because at the time they were not available or they were not considered not inspired by the Council of Laodecia.

The Book of Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Quran as well as many other books. In fact many fragments of every book of the Old Testament was found in the caves of Qumran. Some of the writers of the New Testament were known to study the scrolls found in the Qumran caves. there were many books mentioned in the Bible The

According to Dr. Lumpkin and other scholars, The Book of Enoch has influenced the writers of the Bible as "few others have". Enoch was considered inspired and authentic by certain sects of Jews in the 1st century BC and remained popular for 500 years. The earliest text was written in Aramaic and before that oral tradition. The Book of Enoch heavily influenced writers such as Peter, Jude and Paul. The first century church also accepted the Book of Enoch as inspired if not authentic.

One theory suggests that Enoch predates the Genesis story and another suggests that it expands Genesis but also prophesies end times. It was not only Jesus who used phrases or ideas from Enoch, but there are over 100 comments and ideas associated with Enoch in the New Testament.

Part 3 to come.

 

[bhsmte]

And again, the clear and objective proof is in the references and resources I've given.

I also said that I am by no means a scholar and cannot do these books justice in one post because there is so much information. I do not feel a summarization is a fair representation of the facts because there is so much there. I personally rely on PhD scholars plus ancient texts for my information as this is not my profession.

Also, you've not shared any resources or books with me to back up any of your claims. I would be more than willing to discuss them with you.

And as far as me being a genocide apologist, I know who I am as a person, the people who know me as a woman and professional know that I never condone that type of behavior. So once again please stop with the personal attacks on my character. I think it's kind of obvious you are doing this intentionally.

Also, if you know so much about the book of Enoch as you say you argued for years about, why don't you tell me what you think about it?

I'm sure if these books were so influential for you, you must be familiar with the objective evidence they contain. Why don't you summarize it for us.

 

[Ruthie24]

Part 3:

The Book of Enoch is divided into six separate sections The first one is the book of Watchers, The Book of parables, the book of astronomy and calendar, The Book of visions, The Book of warnings and blessings of Enoch, and the book of Noah.

The verses that describe the fall of the angels and what happened is in chapter 6 of The 1st Book of Enoch The Book of Watchers and it starts with verse 1

1. and it came to pass when the children of men have multiplied that in those days were born to them beautiful and fair daughters daughters this can be compared with Genesis 6,1-3.

2. And the Angels the sons of heaven Saul and lusted after them and said to one another come let us choose us wives from among the children of men

3. And have children with them. And Semyazs who was their leader, said to them, "I fear you will not agree to do this deed

4 and I alone will have to pay the penalty of this great sin.

5 and they all answered him and said let us all swear an oath and all bind ourselves by mutual curses so we will not abandon this plan but to do this thing. Then they all swore together and bound themselves by mutual curses.

6. And they we're all 200 who descended in the days of Jared in the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual curses on the act.

This is comparable to Jude 1:5

Chapter 7
1 and all of them together went and took wives for themselves, each choosing one for himself, and they began to go into them and to defile themselves with sex with them.

This can be compared to Genesis 5:32, and 6:1-6

2 and the Angels taught them charms and spells and the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants.

3. And the women became pregnant and they bare large Giants whose height was 3000 cubits (ells).

This can be compared with Jubilees 7:21-25.

4. The Giants consumed all the work and toil of men and when man could no longer sustain them the Giants turned against them and devoured mankind

5 and they began to sin against birds and beasts and reptiles and fish and to devour one anothers flesh drank the blood.

(Demonic hybrid humans mixed with animals to produce hybrid chimera)

6 then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

This can be compared to Jasher 2:19-23, Genesis 4:8-12

Part 4 to come

 

[bhsmte]

Will part 4 contain objective evidence?

 

[Chany]

Can you explain what your getting at? What's the moral of the story? Fallen angels had sex with humans and weird things were made. Is that the point of the verses, because that is what I read.

How does this answer the problems presented earlier?

 

[bhsmte]

Can you explain what your getting at? What's the moral of the story? Fallen angels had sex with humans and weird things were made.

How does this answer the problems presented earlier?

Not only that, how are these stories substantiated to be true? Just because some dudes wrote this stuff down, does not make it true.

 

[Chany]

Not only that, how are these stories substantiated to be true? Just because some dudes wrote this stuff down, does not make it true.

That is true. However, the Bible as a whole has that issue. I want to show how the moral of the story is, in no way, moral. I'm just waiting to see how it responds to the points we have been raising.

 

[Chany]

Divine Command Theory basically says that whatever God does is moral, and we must live based on seeking approval (heaven) or avoiding punishment (hell). This is obviously, to any thinking person, a horrible way to make moral choices. It's like North Korea, where the Dear Leader makes up the rules as he goes and the citizens have to anticipate his whims and shift there opinions and moral principles. The concept itself is inherently immoral.

I'm aware of the problems Divine Command Theory has. It's glaringly bad.

On the point of moral relativism: I'm a moral objectivist. I hold that, for every given situation, there is an option that is the morally best. I agree there is grey area in my statement, but, unless there is a very specific example, I hold by statement in the specific situation: that, if a threat can be safely and surely incapacitated and rendered an non-threat without killing them, then that is always the moral action to perform. Of course, there is a lot of grey area in the actual application of this principle, but that results from unknown variables, like, "will taser bring the threat down", or, "did the threat run out of bullets". However, this does not eliminate the situational principle.

 

[steve_bakr]

Divine Command Theory basically says that whatever God does is moral, and we must live based on seeking approval (heaven) or avoiding punishment (hell). This is obviously, to any thinking person, a horrible way to make moral choices. It's like North Korea, where the Dear Leader makes up the rules as he goes and the citizens have to anticipate his whims and shift there opinions and moral principles. The concept itself is inherently immoral.

But God does not have moods and whims like leaders of North Korea, and his commands are just because He is the ultimate Moral Being. But, anyway, I believe that there are Universal Moral Principles, so that God would only issue commands that are already existent in the Divine Order of the Universe.

A word about genocide, and this puts me in the position of possibly having to re-examine and define inerrancy and inspiration in Scripture. I see two possibilities.
1. The killing of other "tribes" was necessary for survival at that time but is unacceptable today.
2. God did not command the killing, but it was the Israelites' understanding of God's will at that time.

Man's understanding of God evolves through the ages. However, there are certain "golden ages" in which understanding reaches a peak, at least for selected groups. For example, approximately 500 BC, when many Psalms are composed and some or much of what is called the Upanishads is written down.

Man's understanding of God does not rise on a smooth incline, but has peaks and valleys.

 

[Ruthie24]

Part 4

Jasher 2:19-22

19 an in those days the sons of men began to trespass against God and to go contrary to the commandments which had been given to Adam to be prolific and reproduce in the earth
20 and some of the sons of men caused their wives to drink a mixture that would render them unable to conceive, in order that they might retain their figures and their beautiful appearance might not fade
21 and when the sons of men, caused some of their wives to drink, Zillah drank with them
22 and the childbearing women appeared abominable in the site of their husbands and they treated them as widows while their husbands lived with those unable to conceive and to those women they were attached

Jasher 4
18 and their (the nephilim) judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field,and the fowls of the air and taught men the mixture of animals of one species with the other in order to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt for all flesh had corrupted its ways on earth, all men and all animals.
19 and the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air together with cattle and beast that are in the field for I repent I ever made them
20 and all men who walked in the ways of the Lord died in those days before the Lord brought the evil on man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord that they should not see the evil witch the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men

1 Enoch 9

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being done on the earth, and all lawlessness being done on the earth

2 and they said to each other let the cries from the destruction of Earth a signed up to the gates of heaven

3 and now to you the Holy Ones of heaven the souls of men make their petition saying bring our case before the Most High

4 and they said to the Lord of the ages, Lord of lords, God of gods, King of Kings and God of the ages, the throne of your glory endures through all generations of the ages and your name holy and glorious and blessed to all the ages.

5 you have made all things and you have power over all things and all things are revealed open in your site and you see all things and nothing can hide itself from you

6 look Azazel has done who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were made and kept in heaven which men were striving to learn

7 and Semyaza who taught spells to whom you gave gave authority to rule over his associates

8 and they have gone to the daughters of men on the earth and have had sex with the women, and have defiled themselves and revealed to them all kinds of sins.

9 and the women have borne Giants and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness

See comparison to Genesis 6:5

10 and now behold the souls of those who've died are crying out and making their petition to the gates of heaven, and their lament has ascended and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are done on the earth

11 and you know all things before they come to pass and you see these things and you have permitted them, and say nothing to us about these things. What are we to do with them about them about these things?

Chapter 10

1-6

(This is when God ordered the binding of the fallen angels, commanded Uriel to warn Noah about the flood, and cast Azazel into a split in the desert of Dudael.)

7 and heal the earth which the Angels have ruined and proclaim the healing of the earth, for I will restore the earth and heal the plague, but not all of the children of men may parish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

10 The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel:
to him ascribe ALL SIN.

9 to Gabriel said the Lord to proceed against the bastards and the reprobates and against the children of fornication and destroy the children of fornication and the children of the Watchers. Cause them to go against one another that they may destroy each other in battle: shorten their days.

10 no request that (the Watchers) their fathers make of you shall be granted them on their behalf are they hope to live an eternal life and that each one of them will live five hundred years.

11 and the Lord said to Michael go bind Semyaza and his team who associated with women and defiled themselves in all their uncleanness

12 when their sons have slain one another and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones (nephilim) bind them fast for 70 generations under the hills of the earth, until the day of the consummation of their judgment and until the eternal judgment is accomplished

13 in those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire and to torment and prison in which they shall be confined forever

14 then Semyazs shall be burnt up with the condemned and they will be destroyed having been bound together with them to the end of all generations

15 destroy all the spirits of lust and the children of the watchers because they have wronged mankind

16 destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end (and let the earth be planted with righteousness) the plants of righteousness and truth appear; and it shall prove a blessing, the works of righteousness and truth be planted and joy for evermore

(Compare with Genesis 6:7)

The account then goes on to proclaim the flood, the new earth.

Chapter 15

8 now the Giants who are produced from the spirit and flesh shall be called evil spirits on the earth
( ***this is demonic entities***)

9 live on the Earth. Evil spirits have come out from their bodies because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers, they're beginning is of primal origin

10 they shall be evil spirits on earth and evil spirits shall be called the spirits of the evil ones. [As for the spirits of heaven in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born on the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling]. And the spirits of the Giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, war, destroy, and cause trouble on the earth.

11. They take no food but do not hungry or thirst. They cause offenses is but are not observed.

12 and these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them in the days of the slaughter and destruction.

The Book of Jubilees:

Because all of these three things came the flood on the earth namely the fornication that the watchers committed against the law of their ordinances when they went whoring after the daughters of men and took them selves wives of all they chose and they made the beginning of uncleanness.

And the begat sons the Nephilim (Naphidim- the fallen) and they were all the dissimilar and they devoured one another, and the Giants killed the Naphil, and the Naphil killed the Eljo, and the Eljo killed mankind, and one man killed another. Everyone committed himself to crime and injustice and to shed much blood and the earth was filled with sin.

After this they sinned against the beasts and the birds and all that moved and walked on the earth and much blood was shed on the earth and men continually desired only what was useless and evil.

And the Lord destroyed everything from the face of the earth. Because of wickedness of their deeds and because of the blood they had shed over all the earth, he destroyed everything.

Chapter 16

1 And at the death of the Giants, spirits will go out and destroy without incurring judgment, coming from their bodies their flesh shall be destroyed until the day of the consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, and shall be wholly consummated.

See Matthew 8:28

End

You can read further online. All of these books are free.

 

[bhsmte]

Ruthie,

You said you had objective evidence, I see none.

What people write in a book, that can not be substantiated or verified, is not objective evidence. Man can write anything in a book Ruthie, anything he wants.

 

[Syd the Human]

Part 4

Jasher 2:19-22

19 an in those days the sons of men began to trespass against God and to go contrary to the commandments which had been given to Adam to be prolific and reproduce in the earth
20 and some of the sons of men caused their wives to drink a mixture that would render them unable to conceive, in order that they might retain their figures and their beautiful appearance might not fade
21 and when the sons of men, caused some of their wives to drink, Zillah drank with them
22 and the childbearing women appeared abominable in the site of their husbands and they treated them as widows while their husbands lived with those unable to conceive and to those women they were attached

Jasher 4
18 and their (the nephilim) judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field,and the fowls of the air and taught men the mixture of animals of one species with the other in order to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt for all flesh had corrupted its ways on earth, all men and all animals.
19 and the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air together with cattle and beast that are in the field for I repent I ever made them
20 and all men who walked in the ways of the Lord died in those days before the Lord brought the evil on man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord that they should not see the evil witch the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men

1 Enoch 9

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being done on the earth, and all lawlessness being done on the earth

2 and they said to each other let the cries from the destruction of Earth a signed up to the gates of heaven

3 and now to you the Holy Ones of heaven the souls of men make their petition saying bring our case before the Most High

4 and they said to the Lord of the ages, Lord of lords, God of gods, King of Kings and God of the ages, the throne of your glory endures through all generations of the ages and your name holy and glorious and blessed to all the ages.

5 you have made all things and you have power over all things and all things are revealed open in your site and you see all things and nothing can hide itself from you

6 look Azazel has done who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were made and kept in heaven which men were striving to learn

7 and Semyaza who taught spells to whom you gave gave authority to rule over his associates

8 and they have gone to the daughters of men on the earth and have had sex with the women, and have defiled themselves and revealed to them all kinds of sins.

9 and the women have borne Giants and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness

See comparison to Genesis 6:5

10 and now behold the souls of those who've died are crying out and making their petition to the gates of heaven, and their lament has ascended and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are done on the earth

11 and you know all things before they come to pass and you see these things and you have permitted them, and say nothing to us about these things. What are we to do with them about them about these things?

Chapter 10

1-6

(This is when God ordered the binding of the fallen angels, commanded Uriel to warn Noah about the flood, and cast Azazel into a split in the desert of Dudael.)

7 and heal the earth which the Angels have ruined and proclaim the healing of the earth, for I will restore the earth and heal the plague, but not all of the children of men may parish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

10 The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel:
to him ascribe ALL SIN.

9 to Gabriel said the Lord to proceed against the bastards and the reprobates and against the children of fornication and destroy the children of fornication and the children of the Watchers. Cause them to go against one another that they may destroy each other in battle: shorten their days.

10 no request that (the Watchers) their fathers make of you shall be granted them on their behalf are they hope to live an eternal life and that each one of them will live five hundred years.

11 and the Lord said to Michael go bind Semyaza and his team who associated with women and defiled themselves in all their uncleanness

12 when their sons have slain one another and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones (nephilim) bind them fast for 70 generations under the hills of the earth, until the day of the consummation of their judgment and until the eternal judgment is accomplished

13 in those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire and to torment and prison in which they shall be confined forever

14 then Semyazs shall be burnt up with the condemned and they will be destroyed having been bound together with them to the end of all generations

15 destroy all the spirits of lust and the children of the watchers because they have wronged mankind

16 destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end (and let the earth be planted with righteousness) the plants of righteousness and truth appear; and it shall prove a blessing, the works of righteousness and truth be planted and joy for evermore

(Compare with Genesis 6:7)

The account then goes on to proclaim the flood, the new earth.

Chapter 15

8 now the Giants who are produced from the spirit and flesh shall be called evil spirits on the earth
( ***this is demonic entities***)

9 live on the Earth. Evil spirits have come out from their bodies because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers, they're beginning is of primal origin

10 they shall be evil spirits on earth and evil spirits shall be called the spirits of the evil ones. [As for the spirits of heaven in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born on the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling]. And the spirits of the Giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, war, destroy, and cause trouble on the earth.

11. They take no food but do not hungry or thirst. They cause offenses is but are not observed.

12 and these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them in the days of the slaughter and destruction.

The Book of Jubilees:

Because all of these three things came the flood on the earth namely the fornication that the watchers committed against the law of their ordinances when they went whoring after the daughters of men and took them selves wives of all they chose and they made the beginning of uncleanness.

And the begat sons the Nephilim (Naphidim- the fallen) and they were all the dissimilar and they devoured one another, and the Giants killed the Naphil, and the Naphil killed the Eljo, and the Eljo killed mankind, and one man killed another. Everyone committed himself to crime and injustice and to shed much blood and the earth was filled with sin.

After this they sinned against the beasts and the birds and all that moved and walked on the earth and much blood was shed on the earth and men continually desired only what was useless and evil.

And the Lord destroyed everything from the face of the earth. Because of wickedness of their deeds and because of the blood they had shed over all the earth, he destroyed everything.

Chapter 16

1 And at the death of the Giants, spirits will go out and destroy without incurring judgment, coming from their bodies their flesh shall be destroyed until the day of the consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, and shall be wholly consummated.

See Matthew 8:28

End

You can read further online. All of these books are free.

I read this as angels came and knocked up the human women which gave birth to beings ("giants") that are evil, and since they were evil they deserved to be killed.

So, humans are not evil? Have humans not done those things? I am sure I could find plenty of examples of humans killing and destroying everything. And besides, even those beings are still human since they had human parents.

So we are back to where we started. Humans mess up. God just kills them because he gave up on them (which he supposedly is not supposed to do).

This does not help your case at all.

 

[Ruthie24]

There is not much I can say to you anymore. If you aren't willing to believe in God Jesus Christ, the Bible or the authors of the New Testament, no amount of scholarly evidence will persuade you no matter how it is presented and in what format. You are what C.S. Lewis terms as willfully blind.

 

[bhsmte]

There is not much I can say to you anymore. If you aren't willing to believe in God Jesus Christ, the Bible or the authors of the New Testament, no amount of scholarly evidence will persuade you no matter how it is presented and in what format. You are what C.S. Lewis terms as willfully blind.

You haven't presented any objective evidence Ruthie, not even close. You see, objective evidence can be verified, it just isn't an authors opinion.

I get the impression, if you like what a book tells you, you give it personal credibility. If you don't like what a book says, it must be wrong.

Do you know who the authors were of the 4 gospels?

 

[Syd the Human]

There is not much I can say to you anymore. If you aren't willing to believe in God Jesus Christ, the Bible or the authors of the New Testament, no amount of scholarly evidence will persuade you no matter how it is presented and in what format. You are what C.S. Lewis terms as willfully blind.

We are discussing as if the Christian god exists and how his actions reflect the kind of being that he is.

Regardless of any text this is we could be discussing the motives and actions of Umbridge or Katniss and still be able to talk about them as if they were real based on the text that was provided.

You accept that god is real and we don't, but we can still discuss what the text says and means. To simply wave the objections off and say, "Well you don't believe in it so you cannot grasp what the text means even though we are reading the same exact text."

If you are replying to me anyway, you didn't put who you were replying to.

 

[alien444]

But God does not have moods and whims like leaders of North Korea, and his commands are just because He is the ultimate Moral Being. But, anyway, I believe that there are Universal Moral Principles, so that God would only issue commands that are already existent in the Divine Order of the Universe.

Can you name one moral principle that is universally absolute under any real world circumstance.

A word about genocide, and this puts me in the position of possibly having to re-examine and define inerrancy and inspiration in Scripture. I see two possibilities.
1. The killing of other "tribes" was necessary for survival at that time but is unacceptable today.
2. God did not command the killing, but it was the Israelites' understanding of God's will at that time.

Man's understanding of God evolves through the ages. However, there are certain "golden ages" in which understanding reaches a peak, at least for selected groups. For example, approximately 500 BC, when many Psalms are composed and some or much of what is called the Upanishads is written down.

The "Golden Age" in which Christianity reached its peak of influence and "understanding" in every aspect of human life goes by another name...The Dark Ages.

Man's understanding of God does not rise on a smooth incline, but has peaks and valleys.

I see man's understanding of the Christian God progressing as an arc. It reached its peak in the Middle Ages and as secularism was re-introduced to western civilization during the Italian Renaissance, scientific and philosophical understanding of the universe (and our place within) has risen as the arc of Christian influence has descended. America will follow Europe's trend of rising secularism and over the next few centuries (if civilization survives) the arc should continue its descent as organized religion is replaced by a kind of secular and "personal" spiritualism. These historical arcs are present in every religion as various Gods are replaced by others.