Christians do not "own" morality

[Chany]

I have supported my claims. I explained to you why they view this as legitimate evidence. Because it doesn't fit into your atheist world view, that's not my problem. It's yours. When biblical scholars state HOW to look at evidence, you deny it because it goes against your worldview that is atheistic.

I'm sorry but this is a waste of my time. You are using group think and rhetoric straight from talking points. It's dishonest as hell. Not a single one of you has posted one reference of anything. That is intentionally dishonest.

I'm a philosopher with a hobby of looking into history and science. I care about ethics and the philosophy of God. My arguments require no evidence because the argument is the evidence. I'm merely arguing about specific situation.

Refute my argument:

1) It is only morally justifiable to kill a malicious being when there is no safe and sure way to disable and restrain the threat without resorting to violence. If the threat can be neutralized and restrained in a sure and safe manner without the use of violence or killing, than that method must be used over killing the threat.

2) An omnipotent and omniscient being possesses both the ability to do anything and the knowledge of anything. It can easily safely and sure disable and restrain a threat indefinitely without any violence necessary, and it knows exactly the method to do that. It can do anything, from basic physical disabling to altering minds.

3) Therefore, it is never morally justifiable for an omnipotent and omniscient to kill a being, no matter how evil they are, as it can always use a more moral method to achieve the same end result.

4) The God of the Bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

5) The Bible contains instances of both God-sanctioned and God-caused genocide.

6) Therefore, either: God is immoral, the God of the Bible is not true, or the Bible is not the infallible word of God and does not accurately represent God.

 

[Ruthie24]

First, atheism is just not believing in any gods. That's it. Nothing else in that regard unifies us. So to say we have an atheistic view makes us unable to understand the moral issues of the story at hand makes no sense.

Second, a scholar does not determine what is moral and what is not for everyone else. They can present it the way they view it, but that does not make it correct. If a scholar says that abortion is not immoral, would you automatically agree? (I don't know your stance on this issue but the standard christian response to abortion is that it's immoral).

Third, we are discussing the story at hand which you have provided. On a larger scale we are talking about the morality of god killing people or ordering people to kill one another. What is there to site? We would just re-post what you already said. You have already presented this as true and that it is just. We are debating the morality of what you have provided.

Syd: on another thread i posted what i researched about atheism. There are different camps or factions just like in other world views. Maybe they don't say they aren't united but I highly question that. Through my research I've become aware of the agenda camps tied to big money from lots of entities both secular and non. I tend to follow the money. I have the unfortunate ability to smell out foxes in hen houses that must've developed from all the assessments I've done in my careers.

I despise both secular and non secular agendas because they are not Christ based at all. The body of Christ is not reflected in today's churches as a general observation or they would be doing a hell of a lot more to help "the least of my brothers". Everything, everything goes back to the first century church. My heart and my soul really jives with the first century church. I can't believe after all these decades of searching that I had such good fortune to stumble upon this wealth of information.

You asked why God would kill off the nephilim. It's explained in Enoch. The NT references Enoch over 100x. The NT scholars all felt Enoch was authentic. In fact Peter uses very similar passages in his writings.

The nephilim were human, demonic, and in some cases animal chimera. They did not embody human souls, but demonic ones. Human DNA is genetically designed by God to house human souls. Human beings who become demonically possessed go through a gradual process of possession. Some human beings have used specific Satanic rituals for complete demonic embodiment.

These genetically designed things were intentionally designed to house demonic entities who were the children of the fallen angels with human females. In Enoch and other sources authenticated by 1st century scholars all verify that these things were + demonic + nonhuman + had blood thirsty violent tendencies + did not stop their behaviors because they were inherently evil and therefore God was justified in killing them all because of the atrocities against all of humanity.

The nephilim spirits are in our world today known as demons. The nephilimic agenda to re-embody into human animal chimera is still in effect today.

 

[Ruthie24]

I'm a philosopher with a hobby of looking into history and science. I care about ethics and the philosophy of God. My arguments require no evidence because the argument is the evidence. I'm merely arguing about specific situation.

Refute my argument:

1) It is only morally justifiable to kill a malicious being when there is no safe and sure way to disable and restrain the threat without resorting to violence. If the threat can be neutralized and restrained in a sure and safe manner without the use of violence or killing, than that method must be used over killing the threat.

2) An omnipotent and omniscient being possesses both the ability to do anything and the knowledge of anything. It can easily safely and sure disable and restrain a threat indefinitely without any violence necessary, and it knows exactly the method to do that. It can do anything, from basic physical disabling to altering minds.

3) Therefore, it is never morally justifiable for an omnipotent and omniscient to kill a being, no matter how evil they are, as it can always use a more moral method to achieve the same end result.

4) The God of the Bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

5) The Bible contains instances of both God-sanctioned and God-caused genocide.

6) Therefore, either: God is immoral, the God of the Bible is not true, or the Bible is not the infallible word of God and does not accurately represent God.

Chany

You can believe what you want and so will I. An argument does not stand as evidence. Evidence supports or does not support an argument. The argument alone does not qualify as evidence. I don't know how to explain to you that pure evil beings existed in a human animal demonic form and needed to be killed. I know a lot of people haven't come across real evil or sat down with a serial murderer and spoken with them. When it comes to these demonic hybrids, they were beyond the human scope of evil in the human serial killer. This is because they were NOT human but completely demonic and they needed to be destroyed.

When you encounter a demonic entity, it totally changes your perception of reality. You get a very profound and life altering paradigm shift. After that, the way you see life and it's workings are never the same, never. Many times you wish you had never encountered those demonic things but I believe that the hand of God is on us all as human beings whether we see it or not.

 

[bhsmte]

Chany

You can believe what you want and so will I. An argument does not stand as evidence. Evidence supports or does not support an argument. The argument alone does not qualify as evidence. I don't know how to explain to you that pure evil beings existed in a human animal demonic form and needed to be killed. I know a lot of people haven't come across real evil or sat down with a serial murderer and spoken with them. When it comes to these demonic hybrids, they were beyond the human scope of evil in the human serial killer. This is because they were NOT human but completely demonic and they needed to be destroyed.

When you encounter a demonic entity, it totally changes your perception of reality. You get a very profound and life altering paradigm shift. After that, the way you see life and it's workings are never the same, never. Many times you wish you had never encountered those demonic things but I believe that the hand of God is on us all as human beings whether we see it or not.

What is your evidence that demonic entities exist?

 

[Ruthie24]

I've already listed one reference which fell on deaf ears. You can choose how you believe and so will I. I'm OK with my worldview of reality and I respect your worldview as well. The two can mutually exist, we just believe differently.

Frankly, the nature of evil and the demonic dimension is off the table. It gets into a whole nother dimension of reality that is not of the light and is wrapped around real human evil and tragedy. I'm not comfortable discussing an extremely ugly topic.

Even if I do believe in this dimension, you are entitled to your non belief and no evidence I present is going to make any difference as you come from a different world view and that's totally fine.

 

[Syd the Human]

Syd: on another thread i posted what i researched about atheism. There are different camps or factions just like in other world views. Maybe they don't say they aren't united but I highly question that. Through my research I've become aware of the agenda camps tied to big money from lots of entities both secular and non. I tend to follow the money. I have the unfortunate ability to smell out foxes in hen houses that must've developed from all the assessments I've done in my careers.

You just proved my point. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. Different people take that into different directions, meaning we are all not unified under the lack of faith.

I despise both secular and non secular agendas because they are not Christ based at all. The body of Christ is not reflected in today's churches as a general observation or they would be doing a hell of a lot more to help "the least of my brothers". Everything, everything goes back to the first century church. My heart and my soul really jives with the first century church. I can't believe after all these decades of searching that I had such good fortune to stumble upon this wealth of information.

You asked why God would kill off the nephilim. It's explained in Enoch. The NT references Enoch over 100x. The NT scholars all felt Enoch was authentic. In fact Peter uses very similar passages in his writings.

The nephilim were human, demonic, and in some cases animal chimera. They did not embody human souls, but demonic ones. Human DNA is genetically designed by God to house human souls. Human beings who become demonically possessed go through a gradual process of possession. Some human beings have used specific Satanic rituals for complete demonic embodiment.

These genetically designed things were intentionally designed to house demonic entities who were the children of the fallen angels with human females. In Enoch and other sources authenticated by 1st century scholars all verify that these things were + demonic + nonhuman + had blood thirsty violent tendencies + did not stop their behaviors because they were inherently evil and therefore God was justified in killing them all because of the atrocities against all of humanity.

The nephilim spirits are in our world today known as demons. The nephilimic agenda to re-embody into human animal chimera is still in effect today.

I underlined the portion where you agree that they are still human.

All of our points still stand.

Humans commit atrocities all the time. God just gave up on those individuals.

 

[Syd the Human]

Chany

You can believe what you want and so will I. An argument does not stand as evidence. Evidence supports or does not support an argument. The argument alone does not qualify as evidence. I don't know how to explain to you that pure evil beings existed in a human animal demonic form and needed to be killed. I know a lot of people haven't come across real evil or sat down with a serial murderer and spoken with them. When it comes to these demonic hybrids, they were beyond the human scope of evil in the human serial killer. This is because they were NOT human but completely demonic and they needed to be destroyed.

When you encounter a demonic entity, it totally changes your perception of reality. You get a very profound and life altering paradigm shift. After that, the way you see life and it's workings are never the same, never. Many times you wish you had never encountered those demonic things but I believe that the hand of God is on us all as human beings whether we see it or not.

We are discussing the morality of committing a genocide. What evidence do you need? We are talking about an instance where god committed genocide against a group of people, yes people, since they had human lineage.

And, if what you are saying is even remotely true it just demonstrates that god is not all powerful since he cannot even attempt to try and convert them. They are beyond his power or knowledge (or both).

Face it, the only way for this to make sense is by how Chany described it.

"Therefore, either: God is immoral, the God of the Bible is not true, or the Bible is not the infallible word of God and does not accurately represent God."

 

[steve_bakr]

Well, historians use archeology as part of their evidence.

I don't know what NT historians you read, but if you latch onto the evangelical type, who likely are affiliated with a theology institution and may even be on their payroll, you will not get a very objective view point, as they use the historical method quite loosely.

The majority of NT historians will not say the NT is a credible historical document. They will say bits of the NT are thought to be historically accurate, but much of it can not be. Therefore, they call the NT a work of theology, as opposed to an accurate description of history.

Plenty of good information on line from moderate objective historians on this matter Ruthie, not the conservative one's that claim the NT is 100% accurate, or the one's on the other end who claim Jesus never existed.

All in all, most NT historians can agree on this with confidence:

-Jesus was a real person
-Jesus was baptized
-Jesus had followers
-Jesus was crucified.

Beyond that, it is all up for grabs and the historical method doesn't do any favors for the NT or other ancient writings.

You never answered my question; who wrote the 4 gospels?

Your fact list about Jesus is a good start. It is also true that his disciples believed and testified that Jesus was somehow resurrected. They believed that they had encountered the resurrected Jesus in some manner.

We know that this claim they made somehow transformed them from timid and fearful men to courageous missionaries and evangelists. They were willing to face death as a result of their experience of a resurrected Jesus and indeed most of them were killed.

This may not technically qualify as a secular court testimony, but it is in fact quite powerful evidence.

 

[Chany]

Syd: on another thread i posted what i researched about atheism. There are different camps or factions just like in other world views. Maybe they don't say they aren't united but I highly question that. Through my research I've become aware of the agenda camps tied to big money from lots of entities both secular and non. I tend to follow the money. I have the unfortunate ability to smell out foxes in hen houses that must've developed from all the assessments I've done in my careers.

I despise both secular and non secular agendas because they are not Christ based at all. The body of Christ is not reflected in today's churches as a general observation or they would be doing a hell of a lot more to help "the least of my brothers". Everything, everything goes back to the first century church. My heart and my soul really jives with the first century church. I can't believe after all these decades of searching that I had such good fortune to stumble upon this wealth of information.

You asked why God would kill off the nephilim. It's explained in Enoch. The NT references Enoch over 100x. The NT scholars all felt Enoch was authentic. In fact Peter uses very similar passages in his writings.

The nephilim were human, demonic, and in some cases animal chimera. They did not embody human souls, but demonic ones. Human DNA is genetically designed by God to house human souls. Human beings who become demonically possessed go through a gradual process of possession. Some human beings have used specific Satanic rituals for complete demonic embodiment.

These genetically designed things were intentionally designed to house demonic entities who were the children of the fallen angels with human females. In Enoch and other sources authenticated by 1st century scholars all verify that these things were + demonic + nonhuman + had blood thirsty violent tendencies + did not stop their behaviors because they were inherently evil and therefore God was justified in killing them all because of the atrocities against all of humanity.

The nephilim spirits are in our world today known as demons. The nephilimic agenda to re-embody into human animal chimera is still in effect today.

The only true connection between all atheists is a disbelief in gods. That's it. The only possible sub-catergories are gnostic atheists (those who claim to know there is no god for whatever) and agnostic atheists (those who claim there is no evidence for god and withhold believing in one without that evidence, but personally believe as opinion that there is no god). After the rejection of the belief in god, all philsophical, moral, political, economic, and social views are up for debate and can be held by an atheist (as long as, of course, none of these viewpoints require a god to hold). If I remember that list correctly, you made a few errors, such as using synonyms to describe various "factions" when they are really one, and did not mention either the atheist existentialists or the atheistic religions like Buddhism.

Are you saying that God is powerful enough to save these beings from evil? He could not transform them? The God who created everything, including the mind and soul of every being, could not save these creatures? Sounds like a weak minor deity. It is not the god I searched for, but merely a powerful being.

Assuming that souls exist, you treat souls like they were shoved into a body jar and sent along their merry way. This view cannot be held, as it implies:

1) the metaphysical realm needs specific vessels within the physical realm. Our souls needed specifically tailored bodies for the soul, which makes no sense because the soul would have no physical characteristics.

2) the body is not an innate part of our nature. This makes it both a bad restriction, like the body is withholding our souls from reality. If the body is not an innate part of being human, than it is a hindrance placed by God upon humanity. This sounds like gnosticism. What's next, the god of the earth of the Old Testament is different from the spiritual one in the New Testament? Furthermore, if the body is not an innate part of the person, then there is no purpose of a bodily resurrection for humans.

Are these beings you describe nothing more than fallen angels with a physical form? If so, I can easily refute that. Did God create the minds, feelings, and souls of these fallen angels? If so, why did he make them in a way that they would reject him? This goes back to the impossibility of free will in a world where there is an omnipotent and omniscient being whose created reality goes on perfectly according to its will. The only way this could work is if every being behaved the exact way the master plan is destined.

Also, why do these things get irrefutable evidence and complete knowledge of God's existence while humans get a weird mix of mythical books that people who do believe in God cannot clearly agree on what it means, which book is the right one, and what this God wants? What kind of communication failure can occur with an omnipotent and omniscient being? What, is the message not really that important?

Lastly, unless these beings were behind every single instance of mass murder and genocide in the Bible, you still must deal with all of the cases of genocide and mass murder of regular human beings.

 

[bhsmte]

I've already listed one reference which fell on deaf ears. You can choose how you believe and so will I. I'm OK with my worldview of reality and I respect your worldview as well. The two can mutually exist, we just believe differently.

Frankly, the nature of evil and the demonic dimension is off the table. It gets into a whole nother dimension of reality that is not of the light and is wrapped around real human evil and tragedy. I'm not comfortable discussing an extremely ugly topic.

Even if I do believe in this dimension, you are entitled to your non belief and no evidence I present is going to make any difference as you come from a different world view and that's totally fine.

This whole referencing books is getting old. I asked what the evidence was to support your claim demonic entities exist.

If you have objective evidence to support this claim, please explain it to us, without referring to an author or a book.

 

[Gadarene]

Your fact list about Jesus is a good start. It is also true that his disciples believed and testified that Jesus was somehow resurrected. They believed that they had encountered the resurrected Jesus in some manner. We know that this claim they made somehow transformed them from timid and fearful men to courageous missionaries and evangelists. They were willing to face death as a result of their experience of a resurrected Jesus and indeed most of them were killed. This may not technically qualify as a secular court testimony, but it is in fact quite powerful evidence.

No, it really isn't. By this 'logic' all religions are valid by virtue of the fact they have transformative effects on the lives on their adherents.

I suppose this is also one of those things that's magically different when it's claimed by Christians.

 

[steve_bakr]

No, it really isn't. By this 'logic' all religions are valid by virtue of the fact they have transformative effects on the lives on their adherents.

I suppose this is also one of those things that's magically different when it's claimed by Christians.

Actually, transformative effects on the lives of believers really is strong evidence. Why would it not be?

I don't know what this has to do with other religions, but at any rate, I have no beef with other religions.

 

[Chany]

Actually, transformative effects on the lives of believers really is strong evidence. Why would it not be?

I don't know what this has to do with other religions, but at any rate, I have no beef with other religions.

Because every religion has these transformative effects, even the ones that are in clear contradiction with one another. Islam and Christianity are, at the basic level, in contradiction. One claims a trinitarian godhead whose son became a full man and full god. The other specfically rejects this and claims the "son" was not a god but a prophet. They both can't be true, yet the people who adhere to them believe them and claim to experience transformative effects.

The multitude of contradictory claims indicates the transformative effects are not from divinity, but from psychology. Not proves without question. It would be interesting to do psychological and neurological studies on these people, before and after if possible. Only then can we truly prove anything about them.

However, the multitude indicates and calls into question the strength of the evidence. It does not indicate divinity, but merely the fact that radical and powerful beliefs produces radical and powerful behaviors.

 

[Cearbhall]

The idea of an objective moral code existing as the result of the Abrahamic God is logically unsound.

I'm not so sure about that. I agree that there isn't an objective moral code that was created by a god, but the concept of such a code is logical within the framework of the Abrahamic religions. If a higher being were the watchmaker of the universe, it could create moral laws that are as objective as the laws of physics.

 

[Ruthie24]

You just proved my point. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. Different people take that into different directions, meaning we are all not unified under the lack of faith.




I underlined the portion where you agree that they are still human.

All of our points still stand.

Humans commit atrocities all the time. God just gave up on those individuals.

Syd: you are taking what I said out of context. If you read what I said, and read the texts that I posted re: Enoch 1-4, God did NOT create the nephilim. The fallen angels created those things, NOT God. There is a BIG difference. Human creation is by God, NOT demonic/human/animal hybrids. They are things, without the ability to hold human souls, but demonic spirits. They needed to be destroyed. God did NOT create them. The fallen angels were in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD, with the FULL intention of disobeying Him and the FULL AGENDA of destroying HIS CREATION, which is HUMAN BEINGS, NOT human/animal/demonic chimera. This is the reason God ordered the flood and the killing of those things. They were NOT human. Human/animal/demonic hybrids are NOT HUMAN and NOT created by GOD. God was totally moral in killings these things. Perfectly moral, perfectly just.

 

[Ruthie24]

This whole referencing books is getting old. I asked what the evidence was to support your claim demonic entities exist.

If you have objective evidence to support this claim, please explain it to us, without referring to an author or a book.

Yeah it's getting old. Please post a reference to defend your points, thanks. Waste of discussion otherwise

 

[Syd the Human]

Syd: you are taking what I said out of context. If you read what I said, and read the texts that I posted re: Enoch 1-4, God did NOT create the nephilim. The fallen angels created those things, NOT God. There is a BIG difference. Human creation is by God, NOT demonic/human/animal hybrids. They are things, without the ability to hold human souls, but demonic spirits. They needed to be destroyed. God did NOT create them. The fallen angels were in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD, with the FULL intention of disobeying Him and the FULL AGENDA of destroying HIS CREATION, which is HUMAN BEINGS, NOT human/animal/demonic chimera. This is the reason God ordered the flood and the killing of those things. They were NOT human. Human/animal/demonic hybrids are NOT HUMAN and NOT created by GOD. God was totally moral in killings these things. Perfectly moral, perfectly just.

No I didn't. I never said god created the hybrids, but he did create people. And yes, they are still human. Regardless of what you said, I saw no mention of DNA in that text. It even says that he regretted doing this and that he would not do it again (in the actual Bible). Why would he regret killing things that weren't human? Is god a vegetarian or something? Do humans not have the right to rule over animals? Or is that part of the bible completely lying? Are you saying that humans and animals are on the same plane of importance to god, I remember the Bible saying that we are worth more than sparrows but I guess that is a lie too?

And again, so do humans. Are humans completely obedient? I don't know why you are even making a big deal about how disobedient those beings were. In the christian religion all humans sin and are evil.

 

[Ruthie24]

No I didn't. I never said god created the hybrids, but he did create people. And yes, they are still human. Regardless of what you said, I saw no mention of DNA in that text. It even says that he regretted doing this and that he would not do it again (in the actual Bible). Why would he regret killing things that weren't human? Is god a vegetarian or something? Do humans not have the right to rule over animals? Or is that part of the bible completely lying? Are you saying that humans and animals are on the same plane of importance to god, I remember the Bible saying that we are worth more than sparrows but I guess that is a lie too?

And again, so do humans. Are humans completely obedient? I don't know why you are even making a big deal about how disobedient those beings were. In the christian religion all humans sin and are evil.

Syd: those things are not human, they were created from fallen angels with a mixture of angelic, human, and animal to create a chimera that would embody a demonic spirit. They were not God's creation at all, they were directly created from the fallen angels. In the Bible, specifically in the NT the book of Enoch is mentioned or alluded too over 100 times. These things the fallen angels created, enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed God's people. They are not human, they do not embody human souls, they were not made by God, they were made by Demonic Fallen Angels who directly disobeyed God. I put up posts about Enoch part 1-4. You don't have to read the entire book, the posts that refer to the nephilim are in there.

 

[Syd the Human]

Syd: those things are not human, they were created from fallen angels with a mixture of angelic, human, and animal to create a chimera that would embody a demonic spirit. They were not God's creation at all, they were directly created from the fallen angels. In the Bible, specifically in the NT the book of Enoch is mentioned or alluded too over 100 times. These things the fallen angels created, enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed God's people. They are not human, they do not embody human souls, they were not made by God, they were made by Demonic Fallen Angels who directly disobeyed God. I put up posts about Enoch part 1-4. You don't have to read the entire book, the posts that refer to the nephilim are in there.

Did the angels have sex with a human and from that did they produce a child?

If the answer is yes, then it is indeed still human due to human lineage.

Besides, did god not create angels as well? Or, is god not actually the creator of everything? Besides, even in the animal kingdom there are hybrids. Are they now no longer animals? If so, which are still animals and which are not?

And again, humans have also "enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed" people. Nothing new here at all.

edit: You even furthered my point that they are still human by saying they were cannibals. The only way an organism is a cannibal is by eating their own species. We are not a cannibal for eating a cow, but by eating a human.

 

[Ruthie24]

Did the angels have sex with a human and from that did they produce a child?

If the answer is yes, then it is indeed still human due to human lineage.

Besides, did god not create angels as well? Or, is god not actually the creator of everything? Besides, even in the animal kingdom there are hybrids. Are they now no longer animals? If so, which are still animals and which are not?

And again, humans have also "enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed" people. Nothing new here at all.

edit: You even furthered my point that they are still human by saying they were cannibals. The only way an organism is a cannibal is by eating their own species. We are not a cannibal for eating a cow, but by eating a human.

God created all the angels, but 200 of these these fell from Him. They directly disobeyed God when they had sex or raped human women. When they mingled their demonic, human, and animal genetics, it created the embodiment for demonic spirits, the nephilim, NOT human souls. They are not human. They have no concept of humanity. Their intentions were to directly destroy all of humanity, to reverse creation, to destroy God. The intentions of the Fallen Angels were to directly disobey God. In Isaiah is says the Fallen angel Lucifer/Semyaza/Azazel not only wanted to be like God, he wanted to BE God and destroy all of his creations. Their intentions are completely against all creation, against the song of creation, against the light of God. There is no light, no soul, no nothing in these chimeras. They are nothing but pure 100% unadulterated evil. They make human serial killers look like child's play. This is the true Left Hand Path, the true Satanic Agenda. It has absolutely no good, no light, nothing of value in it except to destroy everything God created. "As in the days of Noah..."