Christians do not "own" morality

[bhsmte]

He did not create imperfect human beings. At one time we were perfect. We fell from God when we chose to make a pact with the the fallen angels in the garden so we could take the forbidden fruit (divine knowledge) and corrupt it so we could be AS God. If you don't understand how free will plays out you won't understand the very basics of unconditional love.

Again, this is not about free will.

This is about what you claim your God created and the path he chose.

 

[Gadarene]

He created us all, even the angels knowing we have free will to choose good or evil. He gave all of his created beings that choice. Just because he can foresee the future does not mean that he can interfere with free will, otherwise he would go against the very concept of unconditional love which is the essence of God.

Missing the point Ruthie.

He created us knowing what we would freely choose. He chose to make beings whose choices he knew in advance.

This is asserted by Christians not to be in violation of free will. Ok.

So....why deliberately create people who will fail him?

 

[Ruthie24]

Again, this is not about free will.

This is about what you claim your God created and the path he chose.

It has everything to do with free will as a concept of unconditional love. If you don't understand that you won't get the rest.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It has everything to do with free will as a concept of unconditional love. If you don't understand that you won't get the rest.

I understand the concepts, but they aren't compatible with the idea of an all knowing deity.

 

[bhsmte]

He created us all, even the angels knowing we have free will to choose good or evil. He gave all of his created beings that choice. Just because he can foresee the future does not mean that he can interfere with free will, otherwise he would go against the very concept of unconditional love which is the essence of God.

But this all powerful God who knew what he created and how people would act can then justify killing portions of his creation as his only option and you are ok with that, coming from an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God.

I can't buy that, you may be able to, but I can't and it wouldn't be a God I would feel good about.

 

[Ruthie24]

Missing the point Ruthie.

He created us knowing what we would freely choose. He chose to make beings whose choices he knew in advance.

This is asserted by Christians not to be in violation of free will. Ok.

So....why deliberately create people who will fail him?

The concept of light and darkness. Who will strive towards the light and who will strive towards darkness. God is always expanding himself through unconditional love. That is why he sent himself as Jesus Christ his son to give people another chance. He is always always seeking us. That is why the concept of free will is so fundamentally important. Do we choose as beings of light to grow towards the light or to grow towards the darkness. It is 100% about free will and unconditional love.

 

[Syd the Human]

The concept of light and darkness. Who will strive towards the light and who will strive towards darkness. God is always expanding himself through unconditional love. That is why he sent himself as Jesus Christ his son to give people another chance. He is always always seeking us. That is why the concept of free will is so fundamentally important. Do we choose as beings of light to grow towards the light or to grow towards the darkness. It is 100% about free will and unconditional love.

Love so unconditional that you will be tortured for all of eternity if you don't do what he wants

 

[Gadarene]

The concept of light and darkness. Who will strive towards the light and who will strive towards darkness. God is always expanding himself through unconditional love. That is why he sent himself as Jesus Christ his son to give people another chance. He is always always seeking us. That is why the concept of free will is so fundamentally important. Do we choose as beings of light to grow towards the light or to grow towards the darkness. It is 100% about free will and unconditional love.

That's closing the door after the horse has bolted, Ruthie.

Why did this situation even exist in the first place?

 

[bhsmte]

That's closing the door after the horse has bolted, Ruthie.

Why did this situation even exist in the first place?

The tough questions that hit at the core are generally either avoided or danced around.

 

[Strathos]

Just a thought: If a human kills someone, then that's it, they're dead and gone, there is no second chance or way to undo it.

But if God kills someone, He knows if their soul is still alive and if it's better off... and He could even change things so they were never killed in the first place, if He wanted to. So for Him, it's a completely reversible and inconsequential action.

 

[Strathos]

Just a thought: If a human kills someone, then that's it, they're dead and gone, there is no second chance or way to undo it.

But if God kills someone, He knows if their soul is still alive and if it's better off... and He could even change things so they were never killed in the first place, if He wanted to. So for Him, it's a completely reversible and inconsequential action.

 

[Syd the Human]

Just a thought: If a human kills someone, then that's it, they're dead and gone, there is no second chance or way to undo it.

But if God kills someone, He knows if their soul is still alive and if it's better off... and He could even change things so they were never killed in the first place, if He wanted to. So for Him, it's a completely reversible and inconsequential action.

But god doesn't. They pretty much stay dead.

 

[bhsmte]

Just a thought: If a human kills someone, then that's it, they're dead and gone, there is no second chance or way to undo it.

But if God kills someone, He knows if their soul is still alive and if it's better off... and He could even change things so they were never killed in the first place, if He wanted to. So for Him, it's a completely reversible and inconsequential action.

Let's assume you are correct in what you say, which is a big assumption, but I will go along with it.

At the end of the day, what sort of example do you think this sets for mankind, in regards to judging people and killing them?

Also, you must also believe, that this was the all powerful God's only choice and or the best choice, to kill certain people.

 

[Gadarene]

That dichotomy also conveniently ignores the third arm, which is the one we are talking about - humans killing other humans on the orders of God.

 

[bhsmte]

That dichotomy also conveniently ignores the third arm, which is the one we are talking about - humans killing other humans on the orders of God.

Exactly. That is like a coach justifying hitting people over the head as the justified means of getting them to respond and teaching them a lesson. He couldn't do it any other way and since he is the coach, it must be good.

 

[Ruthie24]

Love so unconditional that you will be tortured for all of eternity if you don't do what he wants

Syd: again it is about free will and unconditional love. That is why we have Christ as our Saviour. I don't presuppose to know the mind of God or what happens to us when we are judged or if those that constantly commit evil are going to hell. I believe that everyone gets a chance at salvation if they are willing to stop committing evil, but there are those people who love evil, who know it's wrong and who do it anyway even when they're told over and over. It's all about free will and whether you knowingly strive towards darkness or the light.

 

[Ruthie24]

That dichotomy also conveniently ignores the third arm, which is the one we are talking about - humans killing other humans on the orders of God.

Have you read the book of Enoch, Giants, Jasher?

 

[Gadarene]

Have you read the book of Enoch, Giants, Jasher?

The stuff that isn't considered canonical by most of Christianity? Sure about that?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Just a thought: If a human kills someone, then that's it, they're dead and gone, there is no second chance or way to undo it.

But if God kills someone, He knows if their soul is still alive and if it's better off... and He could even change things so they were never killed in the first place, if He wanted to. So for Him, it's a completely reversible and inconsequential action.

It also is 100% unnecessary for god to do it ever! seeing as it could just not make people who will sin.

 

[Gadarene]

It also is 100% unnecessary for god to do it ever! seeing as it could just not make people who will sin.

Bingo