Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[cyberlizard]

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

Let me start again with simple yes or no questions.

1. Will keeping the commandments give you eternal life (Y/N)
​

The righteous live-- but the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:2). The commandments can't give eternal life (John 3:16), because n.one keeps them (Romans 3:23)!

this is true the righteous live by faith, they did it before Jesus, and they do it afterward. The soul that lives does die.... i expect to die sometime soon, I expect you do too, this proves we are both sinners. The commands cannot give eternal life, but they can certainly bring about your death by not keeping them (as the soul that sins will die), sure some people keep the commands, just that no one person can keep them all.

Romans 3:20.

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

Romans 3.20 - Jesus said 'if you love me you will keep my commandments - the bulk of Jesus' teaching is based on quotes which he saw as authoritive regarding the Torah. Jospeh is described as a righteous man - Torah observant.

3. As a believer in Christ is obedience a good thing (Y/N)
​

Galatians 5:18.

Which law are we not under, Torah, elders traditions, elders halakhah, circumcision, which law exactly do you think this one refers too.

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

4. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after 'conversion' to 'improve' his righteousness (Y/N)
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Galatians 2.

choose a verse


Originally Posted by cyberlizard

5. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after his 'conversion' as he was a hypocrite?
​

Galatians 2.

choose a verse


Originally Posted by cyberlizard

6. Open ended - Why do you think Paul continued to observe and encourage some commands after his 'conversion'?
​

Verse?

Read Acts 21 where, he was encouraged by the apostles to accompany some believers (christians) who had taken a vow (nazarite) and to join them in their purification process (this involved ritual washing, blood sacrifice, amongst other things), also note how Paul encouraged believers to continue to celebrate Passover (1 Cor. 5), and how he looked forward to being back in the land (of israel) so he could celebrate shavuot (the giving of the Torah) (1 cor. 16 & Acts 20.)

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

7. Do you believe that heaven and earth has yet passed away (Y/N). If No, what then do you make of Jesus commands regarding the authority of the law?
​

The Law was fulfilled-- Jesus said that it would not pass away till "all was fulfilled"-- it was (Matthew 5:17-18).

when exactly was the law fulfilled, was it at his baptism, or when he said this comment, or was it at his crucifixion, or was it at shavuot? When was it, and why did heaven and earth not pass away?


I and others have answered these before, I think it's time to find a new argument or plain concede that you can't defend your position with Scripture.

this works both ways, you have to sweep the scriptures i give under the rug, so to speak.



Originally Posted by cyberlizard

the very idea of a christian sabbath is a non-starter and completely unprovable from the scriptures....
​

When you ignore the Scriptures, it sure is (Acts 20:7, Revelation 1:10).

'on the first day of the week we came together to break bread' - spot on.... the first day of the week. In jewish tradition, a family would celebrate Shabbat at home of friday evening, on saturday daytime they would visit the synagogue for prayer and worship, and as they sun set they would begin to visit their friends (who lived more than a sabbath days walk), and begin a futher period of celebration by 'breaking bread' - a hebrew idiom for sharing a meal together. This getting together is called havdalah and it is a communal celebration that another week has gone, and the next sabbaths on the way. Incidentally, the first day of the week began Saturday evening (not sunday, though sunday becomes a part of it), therefore the verse in Acts which you cited does not prove the case - sorry!

'on the lord's day i was in the spirit' - this does not prove a sunday - the term 'the lord's day' never appear in the NT except here. However, the OT which should be the key to unlocking the NT (the key should not be the church fathers), mentions the 'lord's day' and the 'day of the lord' all of the time. It just means the day God showed his power or revealed himself in some way. There is nothing in the verse again to prove this refers to sunday (you are simply interpreting it according to tradition, not the scriptures). - let me recommend this very short web page from the blog of the International Standard Version editors.


Originally Posted by cyberlizard

As to honouring God on one day, I will hedge my bets that most people who keep sunday as their 'sabbath' do not treat it the way the early church fathers say the apsotles and early believers kept it... this would be seen as far too legalistic.
​

Okay, let's remember this, as you just essentially called us hypocrites (we say we honor God but don't).

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

there are also many who do not honour the day and do all those things.

what are you doing with your faith.... mmm.... faith without works is dead. Jesus said depart from me you who work lawlessness (from the greek word 'nomos' - so could be translated depart from me you who work against the Torah.
​

No.

"Works" is repentance, not the law. Faith without REPENTANCE is dead (2 Peter 3:9).

No, lawlessness means "sin". "Depart from me, you who work sin."

lawlessness does not mean sin at all, if the writer had wanted to use sin, they would have used the word for sin. They didn't. They used a composite word anomia - (a-nomia) - the 'a' denotes in opposition too, nomia is from the root word nomos, law/torah so yes its not sin but against Law/Torah.


Originally Posted by cyberlizard

p.s. please don't try and tarnish us all as hypocrites when you do not know us.
​

Didn't you do that here:

Originally Posted by cyberlizard

As to honouring God on one day, I will hedge my bets that most people who keep sunday as their 'sabbath' do not treat it the way the early church fathers say the apsotles and early believers kept it... this would be seen as far too legalistic.
​

? Is that a double standard?


Sincerely,

Joe

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
this is true the righteous live by faith, they did it before Jesus, and they do it afterward. The soul that lives does die.... i expect to die sometime soon, I expect you do too, this proves we are both sinners. The commands cannot give eternal life, but they can certainly bring about your death by not keeping them (as the soul that sins will die), sure some people keep the commands, just that no one person can keep them all.


This is what is called speakng with both sides of your mouth . If you will die because of not keeping them , then salvation is affected by them and your keeping them earn salvation . Saying that you are unrighteous by not keeping them is the same as saying that righteousness is obtained through observance of the Law .

 

[cyberlizard]

this all depends on whether what we are discussing is righteousness in the sense oh holiness OR righteousness in the sense of imputed or forensic righteousness.

keeping the commands cannot achieve the latter but it can achieve the former.

Steve

 

[MamaZ]

keeping the commands cannot achieve the latter but it can achieve the former.

Keeping the commandments of the law cannot achieve anything either before or after..

 

[cyberlizard]

we read different bibles.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

we read different bibles.

Yep. I noticed you had your version up over here

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7252174&page=2

 

[cyberlizard]

Yep. I noticed you had your version up over here

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7252174&page=2

you'll find there are actually quite a lot of people who read it if you look at enough profiles. It is abbreviated to CJB. Standing for complete jewish bible.

the bible itself is in the traditional order for the TNK unlike the protestant order which is approximately chronological. The NT is in a standard protestant order mainly as no one can decide on the exact dates of the books.

Personally, I think the traditional TNK order is better as it is more systemic (and also if it was good enough for jesus itsure is good enough for me).

The NT portion also has an accompanying commentary.

for your convenience I have included a review of both bible and commentary as well as Amazon links.... maybe then you will stop putting my bible down and making the sarcastic comments.


Steve


p.s. here we go...

complete jewish bible - By John Pittaway

(Tustin, CA USA) - See all my reviews
You ask, "What makes this translation Jewish?" Good question. If you can get past the knee-jerk reactions, I'll tell you. If you haven't noticed most modern English translators have only an accademic understanding of Judaism. This translator is a Jew from an observant, well educated family. Dr. Ben Horin, a Reconstructionis Jewish author wrote, "A Jewish heart can be had quickly. Jewish eyes are the product of 4,000 years of special evolution." Being steeped in the Jewish life gives Dr. Stern a unique view. His translation of the New Testament is idiomatic, similar to NIV. But Dr. Stern's translation starts from the premise that the authors were Jews primarily writing to audiance that was Jews and Righteous Gentiles. (Those were gentiles who attended synogogue and observed some of the commandments, but had not converted to Judaism.)Why should a Christian read this book? Because Jesus spoke to Jewish groups, not gentiles, when He preached. He assumed a familiarity with the Torah that came from a specific set of teachings set in a specific culture. That culture is not always reflected in other translations. Just read Dr. Stern's treatment of Hebrews and compare it to any other English translation. It makes more sense then any I have read.
Why should a Jew read this book? Not to better understand Christians. For that I recommend the New King James and the New International Version. If you want to understand the teachings of the Jew whose life has impacted more Jews then any other Jew since Moses, this is the translation for you. You may not agree with Dr. Stern about whether Yeshua is the Meshiach, but at least you will understand what His followers had to say.
I should add that this translation was vetted by a number of scholars, including Dr. John Fischer, dean of St. Petersburg Theological Seminary in St. Petersburg, Florida.





jewish new testament commentary -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3W162WZYJRMBI/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp David Stern has done a remarkable job intepretting the New Testament from a Messianic Jewish perspective. His expertise in Jewish culture, tradition, and belief bring fresh insights to the student of the New Testament.He sometimes quotes from the Talmud or other ancient sources that help amplify New Testament comments. His understanding of Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles as Jewish help us discern what was in the author's mind, one of the goals of good interpretation.
Though the commentary is not thorough or greatly detailed, many of its insights are not just the same old recirculated ones found in most commentaries. Stern's work is not just a large research paper, but offers material that is unique.
As a pastor of over 20 years and a serious student of the Word, I consider this work invaluable and would not want to be without it

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
this all depends on whether what we are discussing is righteousness in the sense oh holiness OR righteousness in the sense of imputed or forensic righteousness.

keeping the commands cannot achieve the latter but it can achieve the former.


In both ways , saying that not keeping them affects unrighteousness ( or no righteousness ) means that they affect righteousness . It is the same entity being afected . If not keeping them means that you will die , keeping them means that you will live - by one's own merit - that is the whole idea of the threwd - to earn salvation . If one did not earn salvation by keeping the Sabbath ( which none of the proponents do ) , then there wouldn'ty be a problem or the calling of people as "desecrating" them .

 

[MamaZ]

we read different bibles.

We also preach different gospels.. I preach Christ and Him cruicified and you preach Christ and the law.

 

[cyberlizard]

We also preach different gospels.. I preach Christ and Him cruicified and you preach Christ and the law.

no, on the contrary i preach, Christ crucified, dying and being resurrected and then obedience to God's best way of living as an outworking of that grace (i.e. i am obedient because I am saved not the other way around.)


Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

no, on the contrary i preach, Christ crucified, dying and being resurrected and then obedience to God's best way of living as an outworking of that grace (i.e. i am obedient because I am saved not the other way around.)


Steve

Well since you are saying your Jewish, do you also follow all the ordinances of Leviticus too?

Leviticus 1:1 Then called he unto Moses,--and Yahweh spake unto him, out of the tent of meeting, saying: 2 Speak thou unto the sons of Israel, and thou shalt say unto them When any man, would bring near from among you an oblation, unto Yahweh, from the beasts, from the herd or from the flock, shall ye bring near your oblation.

 

[cyberlizard]

Well since you are saying your Jewish, do you also follow all the ordinances of Leviticus too?

Leviticus 1:1 Then called he unto Moses,--and Yahweh spake unto him, out of the tent of meeting, saying: 2 Speak thou unto the sons of Israel, and thou shalt say unto them When any man, would bring near from among you an oblation, unto Yahweh, from the beasts, from the herd or from the flock, shall ye bring near your oblation.

Where have you got this mistaken notion i am Jewish. My ethnic origin is British. As far as I know, i have no Jewish ancestry whatsoever.


Steve

p.s. you also follow commands of Torah don't you, such as love Adonai your God, love your neighbour, and many others, it is just i choose to be obedient to more of them than you appear to want too.... remember Jesus' words, 'whoever teaches shall be called great' - i would rather be bigger in the kingdom than smaller, how about you.

I think you need to grasp the standard messianic belief that faith without works is dead... we are obedient because we are saved, its just a question of how obedient you want to be.

Oh can you tell me one more thing... are you and Mamaz 'socks'.

 

[visionary]

The Torah is an extension of HaShem's grace because it demonstrates HaShem's love for humanity. For example, Israel was not delivered from Egypt because they were strong or because they earned deliverance. HaShem delivered His people from Egyptian bondage as an act of love. Therefore, deliverance from Egypt is an extension of grace. Because deliverance from Egypt is an extension of grace HaShem expects His people to be grateful. The best way to show this gratitude is through obedience.

Deut 7:9-11 states, "The LORD did not set his love on you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations".

Yeshua also expects His followers to demonstrate their love for Him through obedience. John 14:21 states "He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

 

[BrightCandle]

We also preach different gospels.. I preach Christ and Him cruicified and you preach Christ and the law.

Why was Jesus crucified? Because mankind broke God's law, which is sin. The Godhead determined that Jesus would died on our behalf, so any human being if they repented and turned away from sin could have eternal life. So I ask, why in God's name would any one claiming to be a follower of Jesus teach that the law is no long applicable to Christians? That is totally ludicrous! Once the Holy Spirit takes control of our lives we will have a much greater sense of the terrible cost of sin to ourselves. And that our individual sins, and the totality of sin that mankind has committed is what nailed Jesus to the cross, so why would we want now to go out and sin, by breaking any of God's Ten Commandments?

 

[visionary]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Does that mean we all have to buy travelling tickets to go to the jerusalem to worship Him

Reve 13:10 If any into captivity, into captivity he is led away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding them in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. [Luke 21:24]

 

[visionary]

Does that mean we all have to buy travelling tickets to go to the jerusalem to worship Him

Reve 13:10 If any into captivity, into captivity he is led away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding them in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. [Luke 21:24]

Maybe we will ride one of those white horses Yeshua comes riding in on with his army.. maybe we will appear there just like Phillip

Acts 9:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Who knows how we will go, it could be that angels will grab you by the scruff of the neck and wing you to the heavenly courts in time for sabbath. What is true is that everyone will be there from one sabbath to the next for all eternity. It is our appointment with God. God has it all written up in His day planner.

 

[Alethes]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

We will come to worship God from month to month and from week to week. It is not referring to "the Sabbath" which was to be kept by Israel, and which Christ has already fulfilled.

The Sabbath means more than a weekly rest, going to church, etc., The Sabbath rest pictured the Christ who would come to redeem man from his sins so he could enter into God's rest. Man could not enter into God's rest by his own works which was of the law, but through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:10:
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

This is what the Sabbath was all about. The Sabbath 'rest' came by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. He fulfilled the Sabbath and we are not obligated by law to keep it.

God bless you

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by visionary Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isn't a "new moon" symbolizing a "new month"?

That appears to be what Revealtion is saying for those of us Saints who have entered the City. Just remembered I had this in a study as we were discussing the symbolic "tree of life" on another board. Pretty fascinating!!!

Revelation 22:2 in midst of the broad-place of her, and of the river hence and hence, a wood/xulon <3586> of life, doing fruits, twelve, according to month, each rendering the fruit of it, and the leaves of the wood/xulou <3586> into Healing of the nations;

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259006
The useless (?) tree of life

 

[Drwhat]

Hi there wailingwall,
one thing you will come to learn about me hopefully is that if talk about God it will be scripturally correct. Here's your scripture my friend.


Col 2:16 let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Amen and God bless.