Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[Adventist Dissident]

It's odd, how you completely ignore my challenges to your arguments and skip to new verses.

This is the law of liberty, not the law of Moses. The law of liberty is the "word" (James 1:22-24). The Greek word "word" here is Logos, the same word used to describe Jesus in John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Logos"). "Doers" literally means "performers". The phrase in Greek is "performers of the Logos". What does that mean? We're to fulfill the law of liberty, which is the same as the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2). This is not the Law of Moses, but the New Covenant (Galatians 6:2). If you're going to read James 1:25, you've got to continue on to verse 27, which says religion God accepts is to "keep oneself unspotted from the world." You can't do that by the Law (James 2:10).



Verse 24, “Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law’—to whom we gave no such commandment—“ That makes it clear (as if the other verses that have been listed didn’t) that we are told in the Scriptures not to follow the law if we are in Christ. it is talking about earning your salvation, no one is talking about earning anything.



If you are discounting what the New Testament says (don’t keep the law if you’re a Christian, Galatians 5:18)… the apostle John celebrated on the Lord’s Day (Revelation 1:10), as did Paul and the other apostles (Acts 20:7). Why is all of that ignored?

Nothing is ignored. It's all coverd

 

[TheCheat1]

icedragon101,

Nothing is ignored. It's all coverd

I do think that you ignored my objection:

If you are discounting what the New Testament says (don’t keep the law if you’re a Christian, Galatians 5:18)… the apostle John celebrated on the Lord’s Day (Revelation 1:10), as did Paul and the other apostles (Acts 20:7). Why is all of that ignored?

Can you answer that? Acts can be dated at 62 AD (when Paul was in prison, which is where Acts ends), so that means it's an old source that's very close the to events described in the book. This means it's reliable in telling us that the earliest Christians celebrated on the Lord's Day (we're not talking about worship, which we are to do every day, but celebration). If the Lord's Day was instituted after the Twelve/Paul and the New Testament, why does it contain documents stating plainly that they celebrated it?

Sincerely,

Joe

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

icedragon101,

I do think that you ignored my objection:

Can you answer that? Acts can be dated at 62 AD (when Paul was in prison, which is where Acts ends), so that means it's an old source that's very close the to events described in the book. This means it's reliable in telling us that the earliest Christians celebrated on the Lord's Day (we're not talking about worship, which we are to do every day, but celebration). If the Lord's Day was instituted after the Twelve/Paul and the New Testament, why does it contain documents stating plainly that they celebrated it?

Sincerely,

Joe

We also know they were celebrating the "supper" around that time. Were they doing that on the Sabbath? Just curious.

1 corin 11:26 For as often ever ye may be eating the bread, this, and the drink-cup ye may be drinking, the death of the Lord ye are according-messaging until which ever He may be coming [Revelation 19:11]

 

[Adventist Dissident]

icedragon101,



I do think that you ignored my objection:



Can you answer that? Acts can be dated at 62 AD (when Paul was in prison, which is where Acts ends), so that means it's an old source that's very close the to events described in the book. This means it's reliable in telling us that the earliest Christians celebrated on the Lord's Day (we're not talking about worship, which we are to do every day, but celebration). If the Lord's Day was instituted after the Twelve/Paul and the New Testament, why does it contain documents stating plainly that they celebrated it?

Sincerely,

Joe

Joe I think you need to read my article again. I stated the exact same thing.

 

[Rajni]

There are many OT laws we no longer keep. Are you suggesting we are in violation of those as well, or might there be a possibility that we're under a New Covenant now where things are done a bit differently?

the FOURTH COMMANDMENT: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.


Ex 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.


Ex 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Ex 31:14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Lev 23:3 " ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

Dt 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.


Ne 13:17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day?


Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Mt 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

************************************

So the Sabbath is Saturday.. or From Friday Evening till Saturday Evening..

CLEARLY... God wants us to keep the Sabbath holy.. not Sunday which we worship on because of the believed ressurection of Jesus.

SO... why as Christians do we consistantly break one of the Ten Commandments and NOT preach this to our bretheren??

Why do we decide this commandment is negotiable? Did GOD change his mind about the Sabbath? Do we know better than GOD?

We can say Jesus worked on the Sabbath.. but HE HEALED AND PREACHED on the Sabbath.. He wasn't doing carpentry!


With Love,
Jefell

- GETSHOOK . com

 

[Rajni]

Untill you enter into His rest, you a violating the Sabbath every single day!

 

[Rajni]

quote:
I think New Wineskins was pointing out what would be required to "keep the sabbath" biblically?
tulc(just guessing)


Yes . Not a single one of those demanding that Christians keep the Sabbath ( or the "Lord's Day" for the Sunday people ) actually keep them . They only go through some motions - which is exactly the opposite of rest .

True. I think there's just as much work going on in orchestrating the average church service as there is any other day of the week. Therefore, Sunday is not really regarded as a day of rest, imo. In fact, we're expected to feel guilty if we are caught actually resting on that day -- especially in the mornings!

 

[cyberlizard]

The context of Galatians is the law, not medical procedures.

Sincerely,

Joe

that would be were we disagree, Galatians in this respect when discussing circumcision to my reading of the book, uses the word 'circumcision' mostly in technical use meaning ritual conversion to judaism, not the torah command itself.

Steve

p.s. so why does medical circumcision not nullify salvation? Paul says circumcision does nullify, he does not say what kind, so really it puts us into an interesting question.... what does he mean by circumcision and the only answer that makes sense is the one i listed 'ritual conversion'. Paul's beef was not torah observance, it was ritual conversion. we become partakers of the covenants by faith not by snip.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

that would be were we disagree, Galatians in this respect when discussing circumcision to my reading of the book, uses the word 'circumcision' mostly in technical use meaning ritual conversion to judaism, not the torah command itself.

So Messianics do not perform circumcision according to the law of OC Judaism? Just confused on that is all, as I have a brother in law and niece that performed circumcison for their son on the 8th day after his birth.

 

[TheCheat1]

Joe I think you need to read my article again. I stated the exact same thing.

I don't think that you did. If you did, I wholeheartedly apologize (it was 3 AM when I read it, so words have a high chance of getting very confused ). I'll read it again.

that would be were we disagree, Galatians in this respect when discussing circumcision to my reading of the book, uses the word 'circumcision' mostly in technical use meaning ritual conversion to judaism, not the torah command itself.

Steve

p.s. so why does medical circumcision not nullify salvation? Paul says circumcision does nullify, he does not say what kind, so really it puts us into an interesting question.... what does he mean by circumcision and the only answer that makes sense is the one i listed 'ritual conversion'. Paul's beef was not torah observance, it was ritual conversion. we become partakers of the covenants by faith not by snip.

No, Paul makes CLEAR what kind of circumcision he is talking about-- he's talking in the context of the Law (Galatians 2:16-21) before he even starts his rant against circumcision. Circumcision has to do with converting to Judaism, as it is so in the Torah-- you can't observe the Law, any part of it, without being circumcised; that means Paul was effectively speaking against following the law when he spoke against being circumcised. This is, of course, discounting the fact that he states plainly that we aren't to follow the Law anymore!

The Bible says we aren't to follow the Law anymore! Show me a place in the Bible where it states that Christians are to follow the Law, and we might as well abandon our contradictory faith, because:

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Sincerely,

Joe

 

[PROPHECYKID]

There are many OT laws we no longer keep. Are you suggesting we are in violation of those as well, or might there be a possibility that we're under a New Covenant now where things are done a bit differently?

Why? What is the criteria. Does the Sabbath fit the criteria?

 

[MamaZ]

yup

 

[cyberlizard]

No, Paul makes CLEAR what kind of circumcision he is talking about-- he's talking in the context of the Law (Galatians 2:16-21) before he even starts his rant against circumcision. Circumcision has to do with converting to Judaism, as it is so in the Torah-- you can't observe the Law, any part of it, without being circumcised; that means Paul was effectively speaking against following the law when he spoke against being circumcised. This is, of course, discounting the fact that he states plainly that we aren't to follow the Law anymore!

The Bible says we aren't to follow the Law anymore! Show me a place in the Bible where it states that Christians are to follow the Law, and we might as well abandon our contradictory faith, because:

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Sincerely,

Joe

Let me start again with simple yes or no questions.

1. Will keeping the commandments give you eternal life (Y/N)

2. Will keeping the commandments prove your obedience to God's standards for holiness (Y/N)

3. As a believer in Christ is obedience a good thing (Y/N)

4. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after 'conversion' to 'improve' his righteousness (Y/N)

5. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after his 'conversion' as he was a hypocrite?

6. Open ended - Why do you think Paul continued to observe and encourage some commands after his 'conversion'?

7. Do you believe that heaven and earth has yet passed away (Y/N). If No, what then do you make of Jesus commands regarding the authority of the law?



Steve

 

[Rajni]

Why? What is the criteria. Does the Sabbath fit the criteria?

The fact that we are no longer under law but under grace. The law has already been fulfilled through Christ. (Romans 10:4)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The fact that we are no longer under law but under grace. The law has already been fulfilled through Christ. (Romans 10:4)

Hi. It is difficult to get Messianics to understand that for some reason. Have ya ever seen them debating the Orthodox Jews for example? They are under "Faith Groups" instead of "Denominations" on CF. How come?

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Acts 21:21 "They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apostasian <646> you are teaching from Moses, the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be about walking'".

 

[plmarquette]

The christian sabbath (sunday) is not the Jewish sabbath (saturday); Jesus died on the start of the Jewish sabbath rose on the first day of the week (sunday)

The only ones who adhere to this is 7th day adventists and Jewish people ...

As long as you honor God with one day in prayer, rest, and fellowship whether it is Saturday or Sunday, God would be pleased and appeased ....

the question is not about which day ... for many honor the day and fornicate, lie, cheat, steal, and bear false witness ...denying the faith ...

the question is what are you doing with your faith ? what is the evidence of your faith .... not which one is most proper, historic, or culturally accurate .... the things of the sadducees and pharisees .... rules without love ... depart from me , I know you not ...

 

[cyberlizard]

the very idea of a christian sabbath is a non-starter and completely unprovable from the scriptures....

the idea that only Jews and SDA's keep the sabbath is also untrue... I am neither of those things and all the people i know personally (i.e. in real life) that keep the sabbath are also not any of these. Most of us are either charismatic/pentecostal or anglican (hard to believe but true.)

As to honouring God on one day, I will hedge my bets that most people who keep sunday as their 'sabbath' do not treat it the way the early church fathers say the apsotles and early believers kept it... this would be seen as far too legalistic.

there are also many who do not honour the day and do all those things.

what are you doing with your faith.... mmm.... faith without works is dead. Jesus said depart from me you who work lawlessness (from the greek word 'nomos' - so could be translated depart from me you who work against the Torah.


Steve

p.s. please don't try and tarnish us all as hypocrites when you do not know us.

 

[Kristos]

The christian sabbath (sunday) is not the Jewish sabbath (saturday); Jesus died on the start of the Jewish sabbath rose on the first day of the week (sunday)

The only ones who adhere to this is 7th day adventists and Jewish people ...

As long as you honor God with one day in prayer, rest, and fellowship whether it is Saturday or Sunday, God would be pleased and appeased ....

the question is not about which day ... for many honor the day and fornicate, lie, cheat, steal, and bear false witness ...denying the faith ...

the question is what are you doing with your faith ? what is the evidence of your faith .... not which one is most proper, historic, or culturally accurate .... the things of the sadducees and pharisees .... rules without love ... depart from me , I know you not ...

Orthodox still honor Saturday as the Sabbath.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Orthodox still honor Saturday as the Sabbath.

I for one did not know that. Interesting.

 

[TheCheat1]

Let me start again with simple yes or no questions.

1. Will keeping the commandments give you eternal life (Y/N)

The righteous live-- but the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:2). The commandments can't give eternal life (John 3:16), because n.one keeps them (Romans 3:23)!

Romans 3:20.

3. As a believer in Christ is obedience a good thing (Y/N)

Galatians 5:18.

4. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after 'conversion' to 'improve' his righteousness (Y/N)

Galatians 2.

5. Do you believe Paul kept the commands after his 'conversion' as he was a hypocrite?

Galatians 2.

6. Open ended - Why do you think Paul continued to observe and encourage some commands after his 'conversion'?

Verse?

7. Do you believe that heaven and earth has yet passed away (Y/N). If No, what then do you make of Jesus commands regarding the authority of the law?

The Law was fulfilled-- Jesus said that it would not pass away till "all was fulfilled"-- it was (Matthew 5:17-18).

I and others have answered these before, I think it's time to find a new argument or plain concede that you can't defend your position with Scripture.

the very idea of a christian sabbath is a non-starter and completely unprovable from the scriptures....

When you ignore the Scriptures, it sure is (Acts 20:7, Revelation 1:10).

As to honouring God on one day, I will hedge my bets that most people who keep sunday as their 'sabbath' do not treat it the way the early church fathers say the apsotles and early believers kept it... this would be seen as far too legalistic.

Okay, let's remember this, as you just essentially called us hypocrites (we say we honor God but don't).

there are also many who do not honour the day and do all those things.

what are you doing with your faith.... mmm.... faith without works is dead. Jesus said depart from me you who work lawlessness (from the greek word 'nomos' - so could be translated depart from me you who work against the Torah.

No.

"Works" is repentance, not the law. Faith without REPENTANCE is dead (2 Peter 3:9).

No, lawlessness means "sin". "Depart from me, you who work sin."

p.s. please don't try and tarnish us all as hypocrites when you do not know us.

Didn't you do that here:

As to honouring God on one day, I will hedge my bets that most people who keep sunday as their 'sabbath' do not treat it the way the early church fathers say the apsotles and early believers kept it... this would be seen as far too legalistic.

? Is that a double standard?


Sincerely,

Joe