Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[visionary]

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." and you say doesn't apply to you...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." and you say doesn't apply to you...

Nope. Not the Jewish Sabbath.

What is your view of those in Reve 14:11 btw? Just curious.

Hebrews 4:3 For we are entering into the Rest, the ones-believing. According to as He declared, "As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the Rest/katapausin <2663> of Me" and-those the works from down-casting of world being become. [Psalm 95:11]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/anapausin <372> day and night

 

[visionary]

The Lord said the Sabbath are His...

Leviticus 19:30
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

They are only Jewish because God created that faith.

 

[tulc]

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." and you say doesn't apply to you...

No what I say is:

1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I am persuaded the Sabbath has been replaced by our relationship with Jesus, in essence every day I am in communion with Jesus is the Sabbath to me. To limit it to just one day a week seems...wrong. You want to do that? That's fine with me. I don't understand it but hey, you don't answer to me.
tulc(sipping some very fine coffee right now)

 

[holo]

We cannot be removed from the knowledge of Good and Evil or else we would be robots.

We won't be robots. Jesus wasn't a robot. He looked to His Father and did what He saw the Father do. That's what we will do, too, when we look on Him. Not as robots, but as children.

In fact, we were more robot-like when we were still sinners; we were slaves to sin. We couldn't not sin, because it was our very nature.

Why should he want to take away our knowledge of good and evil to prevent us from committing sin.

He just wants us to know Him. Jesus said He came to give us life abundantly, and life is to simply know Him.

Isn't his spirit good enough? isn't grace good enough?

Yes it is! No knowledge of good and evil required

The command not to eat of the fruit did not tempt Eve. The devil did. The devil is the one that makes sin look good.

Yes, but he couldn't do that without the commandment. Sin takes advantage of the commandment and by it produces in us "every covetous desire".

But knowing wrong from right does not tempt.

It doesn't tempt, but it offers the opportunity for temptation. Thus, apart from the commandment, sin is dead.

I rather take into consideration what the entire bible says on a whole rather than one verse.

There are plenty of verses that deal with this. Paul says it over and over, in many ways, that we are dead to the law, supposed to live according to the Spirit and NOT according to the written code, that the law was given to make sin exceedingly sinful etc etc.

If you know him you would keep his commandments.

Yes, and I do. His commandment is to believe on Him whom He has sent.

But why make a commitment to refrain from doing something that you don't do.

Because the commandment is good. "Don't watch porn" is a good rule, isn't it? We make this kind of rules for ourselves because we think we can/should live according to principles and our ability to act morally. It happens all the time, I see it especially often in former drug addicts; God miraculously sets them free, but then after a while in freedom they figure they should try and live according to some rule that they cannot take drugs. And once again, the commandment turns out to be the power of sin! Instead of keeping their eyes on Christ who set them free in the first place, they try to live according to the "law". I used to do that myself, over and over and over, until I finally just gave up. That's when God got the chance to do it FOR me. And that's why I'm extremely careful not to make a "law" for myself, like "I shall not get high".

I see it happen in marriages too - they start out with everything being based on love. But the commandment (marriage vows) sound so good that they start trying to live according to that instead. And gradually, love is replaced by the effort to try and keep a promise.

That's a very simplified scenario, but it's still true.

And the law can only "kill" a sinner not saved by grace.

Well, the law will do what the law does whenever you subject yourself to it. It doesn't matter if you're a sinner or a saint - when you try to live according to the law (the knowledge of good and evil), you will "die" - you will become a slave to sin once again.

Where did you get that theory? If the mind and the heart is the same then didn't Paul say that with his mind he serves the law of God. And plus in the new covenant God says that he will write his laws on our hearts. If it was there before we were born again then why write it.

What I mean is, the jews had the written law. We gentiles had "the demands of the law written in our hearts" as Paul puts it. In other words, nobody escapes the ministry of death. If you're under the written law, it will condemn you. If you're under the "demands of the law" (your conscience), that will condemn you as well. In our minds we knew what was right, but we did the opposite. We were all guilty.

But when we are saved and born again, God writes His law in our hearts. That law is not like the ten commandments, or like our conscience. It's a law of liberty, it's a law that sets us FREE from sin. It's a law of life! It's Christ Himself. God hasn't written "you shall not murder" in my heart. Instead, He has written "you are righteous!" - and the more I realize that and listen to my heart - the more I behave like the righteous person I am.

Eating the forbidden fruit is not the law but the sin that results from the command to not eat it. Violate that law and it leads to death.

The law is the epitome of the knowledge of good and evil.

Not true. It is the lusts of the flesh that causes us to be tempted. Not the knowledge of what is right and wrong. If i want a car and my neighbor has one then i will be tempted to steal it because I want it. If i didn't want it I would not be tempted to steal it but i know stealing it is wrong.

But sin is dead without the commandment. Without the commandment, sin has nothing to take advantage of. If you don't know that something is good and something is evil, you cannot be tempted to do evil.

Like Paul said, "all things are lawful to me, but not all things are beneficial" - it's a drastically different way of living/thinking than "this is good, that is evil".

Love isn't concerned with the law? But below you show a relation.

The relation is like the relation between my acts of love and Japanese law. I love people, therefore I don't steal. Japanese law forbids stealing. But you can't use that to say that I'm somehow "keeping" Japanese law.

Well if being under the law means to be under the knowledge of good and evil then only the ignorant will be saved.

In a way, that's true - Jesus told us to become like little children. But we are saved even if we don't realize that we are dead to the letter and that we're supposed to live according to the Spirit. our salvation thankfully doesn't depend on our perfect understanding of these things. But we'll miss out on a lot, just like the prodigal son. As for me, I was saved for years while being 100% convinced that I was actually hopelessly and eternally lost! Because I didn't know who I was, I didn't know what it really meant to be a child of God. So I behaved like a child of the devil, just like the prodigal son behaved like a pig even though he was his father's beloved son and heir.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No what I say is:

I am persuaded the Sabbath has been replaced by our relationship with Jesus, in essence every day I am in communion with Jesus is the Sabbath to me. To limit it to just one day a week seems...wrong. You want to do that? That's fine with me. I don't understand it but hey, you don't answer to me.
tulc(sipping some very fine coffee right now)

That text is not speaking about the 7th day Sabbath but about the yearly Sabbaths associated with the feast days. The Jews that did not accept Christ used to accuse the Jews who did because they stopped offering sacrifices and keeping feast days. They used to also judge the Gentiles. Its not about the 7th day Sabbath. God was the one who placed a special blessing on the Sabbath. Paul decided although he knew that these "high" days were all come to no significance then there was no point in keeping those days but because of the divisions these issues were creating he had to speak allot about judging others.

The 7th day Sabbath does not mean a restriction of communion with God to only one day. You can treat every day like the Sabbath if you want. The Sabbath cannot be replaced with our communion with God or else that means that the nation of Israel only had communion with God on only one day. That is not true.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Nope. Not the Jewish Sabbath.

But remember that God's plan was to reach the whole world through the nation of Israel. God raised up that nation to work through them to reach all other nations. Israel was just so rebellious that that could not have happened. What was given to Israel was not exclusively just for Israelites but for all who would have joined them as God's people. The Sabbath was not supposed to be seen as a Jewish Sabbath in the first place but the Sabbath of the Lord. The jews "high and mighty" mentality, unattracted nations from them and thus instead of God's laws being looked at as his, they were looked at as the jew's laws.

The only time the gospel was able to go outside of the Jewish nation was when God decided that it was time to take the responsibility of spreading the Gospel out of the hands of the jews or else the gospel would still be with only them today.

What is your view of those in Reve 14:11 btw? Just curious.

You asked me that question more than 20 pages back and never responded. Its time for you to say what's on your mind.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Ok Holo. So let me make sure I understand you. You believe that if you try to abide by the law you will be a slave to sin?
And you believe that God gets rid of the sin problem by taking away our knowledge of Good and Evil?

 

[MamaZ]

The knowledge of good and evil? We are set free through Christ to truly worship Him in Spirit and in truth.. Not in rules and regulations. But By His Spirit can one truly worship God. For we His people are His temple.. We are at Rest that when we recieve Christ that It is true for What He said. It is finished. No longer are we bound by rules and regualtions but we are moved by the Holy Spirit of the living Christ in us as Gods own children..

 

[holo]

Am i a legalist?

I think we're all legalists to some degree. None of us realizes just how vast God's grace is, and how much we depend on it, and how far it can take us.

I think legalism is the idea that I can somehow change my standing with God by my behaviour, that my efforts to live morally will make Him love/bless/like me more, or that immoral behaviour will make Him love/bless/like me less. Legalism is about me and my performance (or anybody else's performance). But grace is all about His performance. Legalism asks, "what have you done for me lately?" while grace says "Jesus has already done it all!"

 

[holo]

Fight the Law of God, you are fighting against God.

Thankfully, we don't have to fight against the law, or struggle with it in any other way. We are DEAD to the law.

We are called to take up our crosses and die every day. Dying is pretty much the opposite of struggling. Dying to yourself is the opposite of trying to make yourself more approvable to God. Dying to yourself means letting it ALL go. All your efforts, all your abilities, all your morality, all our crazy ideas that you can please God by performing some sort of act for Him, all these religious exercises.

You are pleasing to God in the same way that an infant is pleasing to his parents - he merely has to exist for them to love him and be proud of him and give him everything they have.

 

[holo]

I understand what you are doing and know Holo well. You are trying to reach a crowd that had heard it and has an excuse for every scripture you bring before them... They have tossed out those verses a long time ago as not applying to them. That is their decision. Do not grow weary, but be renewed by His Spirit and by His Words.

If you disagree with scripture, then you have a problem with God.

Based on how you described "us" there, I don't expect you to respect my advice. But maybe you could learn something from Prophecykid and his attitude toward those who disagree with him.

 

[holo]

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." and you say doesn't apply to you...

"I know where you live, where satan has his throne..." and you say it doesn't apply to you...

You can't just assume that random verses from the bible apply to anybody/everybody. How is speaking, who is spoken to? For example, when the bible talks about sinners and their fate, that doesn't apply to us, because we are saved and born again. Likewise, it's reasonable to believe that I as dead, born again, gentile, righteous saint, am not subject to the law given to Israel in a covenant I've never been part of.

Why do you believe the sabbath commandment(s) apply to us today?

 

[holo]

Ok Holo. So let me make sure I understand you. You believe that if you try to abide by the law you will be a slave to sin?
And you believe that God gets rid of the sin problem by taking away our knowledge of Good and Evil?

Yes, the more we try to keep the law, the more we will sin. It has always been true for me, and I see that it's true for others as well. It's not a coincidence that the catholic church, with its extreme rules on sex and marriage, has been the scene of so much child molestation. It's not a coincidence that so many preachers preaching against sexual sin have been busted with porn and drugs and hookers.

Most people don't realize this connection between the law and sin, even though I think the bible says it clearly (the church usually teaches that the law is the power AGAINST sin, but Paul says it's the power OF sin). And many of us live in the illusion that we are actually pretty good at keeping the law, and therefore we naturally look down on those who don't.

"The sinful passions, aroused by the law" Paul said...

About our knowledge of good and evil, God doesn't take that away, but He offers us better knowledge: the knowledge of righteousness. That simply means knowing that you ARE righteous. 24/7, all year. No matter what you feel, do, say or think. We are righteous because Christ Himself is our righteousness. There's not a part of my righteousness that is not Him. And if there should be any lack in my righteousness, there would have to be a lack in Christ. But there isn't

So I can choose, every day, to live according to the knowledge of good and evil, or according to the knowledge of righteousness. I can try to live according to the letter, or according to the Spirit. According to the law, or according to grace.

Neither the law, nor my conscience, dictates my behaviour. And neither does it tell me anything about whether or not I'm righteous - Paul said that his conscience was clean (which is obviously a good thing), but that didn't absolve him. No, only the grace of God absolves you, regardless of what your conscience says. A lot of people struggle with guilt even though they are already saved.

 

[fritz300]

You are pleasing to God in the same way that an infant is pleasing to his parents - he merely has to exist for them to love him and be proud of him and give him everything they have.

And when my infant son in a couple years becomes old enough to have a mind of his own, yes I will forever love him and be proud of him just for existing. But one thing is for sure, he will obey my voice and love me in obedience to do as I say, for I am the guardian of his heart and my commandments are protection and life, not burdensome.


Regards,
Zak

 

[holo]

And when my infant son in a couple years becomes old enough to have a mind of his own, yes I will forever love him and be proud of him just for existing. But one thing is for sure, he will obey my voice and love me in obedience to do as I say, for I am the guardian of his heart and my commandments are protection and life, not burdensome.

Sure, but your rules, unlike the law of the old covenant, won't be given to make sin exceedingly sinful and to make him stand guilty before you.

BTW, it's better to raise a child by example rather than by threat of punishment. If you want your child to behave well, the best thing you can do is to behave well yourself. The house rules of a parent are like the law of the old covenant in one regard; the law is for the wicked, and your rules are for the "wicked" kid - in other words, they're there to protect him from harm as long as he's not smart enough to look before he crosses the road and such.

 

[visionary]

http://www.lightzone.tv/?gclid=CI2Lhpmi4ZMCFQnIsgodIxopYw

 

[visionary]

Yes, the more we try to keep the law, the more we will sin. It has always been true for me, and I see that it's true for others as well. It's not a coincidence that the catholic church, with its extreme rules on sex and marriage, has been the scene of so much child molestation. It's not a coincidence that so many preachers preaching against sexual sin have been busted with porn and drugs and hookers.

Most people don't realize this connection between the law and sin, even though I think the bible says it clearly (the church usually teaches that the law is the power AGAINST sin, but Paul says it's the power OF sin). And many of us live in the illusion that we are actually pretty good at keeping the law, and therefore we naturally look down on those who don't.

"The sinful passions, aroused by the law" Paul said...

About our knowledge of good and evil, God doesn't take that away, but He offers us better knowledge: the knowledge of righteousness. That simply means knowing that you ARE righteous. 24/7, all year. No matter what you feel, do, say or think. We are righteous because Christ Himself is our righteousness. There's not a part of my righteousness that is not Him. And if there should be any lack in my righteousness, there would have to be a lack in Christ. But there isn't

So I can choose, every day, to live according to the knowledge of good and evil, or according to the knowledge of righteousness. I can try to live according to the letter, or according to the Spirit. According to the law, or according to grace.

Neither the law, nor my conscience, dictates my behavior. And neither does it tell me anything about whether or not I'm righteous - Paul said that his conscience was clean (which is obviously a good thing), but that didn't absolve him. No, only the grace of God absolves you, regardless of what your conscience says. A lot of people struggle with guilt even though they are already saved.

While I agree with what you say here for the most part.. the highlighted and your conclusion is where I beg to differ.

We can not know sin except by the law, for the law defines sin. Obedience to the law by the guidance of the Holy Spirit
is the only way, for man is carnal and can not see the law is spiritual except that he be born again.

The knowledge of righteousness, His righteousness if found in the law. Without the law, you have no paremeters... and in this world of good and evil, the law is the defining line. We are lost in the knowledge of good and evil if we did not have the foundation of what is good and what is evil... and that is where God's law comes in. That is why the scriptures calls it PERFECT...
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Jerrell]

Alot of people simply DO NOT understand the truth of the Bible. Way too many people think they know, think they have wisdom, knowledge, experience. But the fact is that the masses can be decieved, the masses can be taught a lie, the masses can be wrong. So...what do we do about it? We should refer to the word of God. Concerning the law, and the sabbath. There was a good reason for the sabbath, it alluded to the work of Jesus. The Hebrew writer wrote;

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works" Hebrews 4:3,4

The sabbath day was alluding to mankind entering into a rest in Jesus Christ. Jesus' work is finshed. God finshed on the seventh day. Jesus' payment brought peace through the spirit and forgiveness. After God's work, there was peace and no sin...and so on and so on. We should be mindful of Paul which said,

" Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:16,17

Concerning what was qouted not to earliar about James.

Jas 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

Be mindful of not qouting out of context. James was talking about those that HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD.

Jas 1:22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

He is not talking about continung in the O.T. law.

The law is wirrten in our hearts, we DO NOT follow O.T. law. Anyone who says we do is a liar, because 99.9% of Christians do not keep the whole of the law.

 

[New_Wineskin]

The OP simply DOES NOT understand the Scriptures ...

quote
Where does Ge 2 say that?

It doesn't . If it did , the Lord would not need to explain it in the Law - everyone would know . And , we would know , as well - without any aid of the Scriptures . But , everytime one hears about it being a command , someone quotes the Scriptures which came only at the time of Moses .

Let us look at the passage , shall we ? ...

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.(NIV)

Notice - no mention of His resting every 7th day - only on that one particular day .
Notice - no mention of His wanting or having humans partake of it with Him - only that "*HE* rested"
Notice - no mention of it being a command for humans to observe it every seven days .
Notice - no mention of the humans commanded to pass it on to other generations .

Even though none of those things were mentioned , the Sabbath-violators insist that they are mentioned . Are Christians not about *truth* ? Why are people using lies to manipulate people into doing things ? Even if what they say *is* true , why do they resort to all of the manipulations of the truth and outright falsehoods to convince others ?


Also , the Sabbath law cannot have happened before Moses because *THE* Sabbath - the Passover - only occured at the time of Moses . There is no mention of the Passover Sabbath in the writing that humans call "Genesis" ( one would have to wait for the sequel ) .

Now , allow us to go back to the Sabbath command :

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [a]

14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.(NIV)

*Twice* in one passage - *twice* - A sign between the Lord and the Israelites - not all of mankind - the Israelites and their descendants . If it was to all mankind , it wouldn't be a sign to anyone - everyone would be included . Also , *twice* He states that those who desecrate the Sabbaths *must* be put to death . Are those who worship the Sabbath obeying this part of the Sabbath command ? No . They defecate on the very command they push .