Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[cyberlizard]

don't you know that sacrifices can only be brought in the land, and that the temple must be there for that (paul did both of these things (even as a believer), when he brought the required nazarite offering - his hair and a bull, and a ritual baptism). A sad thing to be legalistic....

some might argue that the law should be followed by jewish believers, but is not required for gentile believers, but then this raises a whole set of new questions....

please can someone tell me what the terms of the new covenant are... i know the parties, and know about the sacrifice, but what are the conditions.....


Steve

 

[calluna]

don't you know that sacrifices can only be brought in the land, and that the temple must be there for that (paul did both of these things (even as a believer), when he brought the required nazarite offering - his hair and a bull, and a ritual baptism). A sad thing to be legalistic....

some might argue that the law should be followed by jewish believers, but is not required for gentile believers, but then this raises a whole set of new questions....

please can someone tell me what the terms of the new covenant are... i know the parties, and know about the sacrifice, but what are the conditions.

There aren't any conditions, except to hear the gospel. When a person hears the gospel, he or she is convicted of sin. The response to that is either to repent (turn from sin, and commit one's life to the one who died on one's behalf) or carry on with one's life as before, ignoring the one who died. Those who repent live in gratitude, loving all. There are no rules at all. Either one loves, because one has been forgiven, or one does not. It all sorts itself out.

The most important part of the Scripture, in a very real sense, is this:

"Her many sins have been forgiven, because she loved a lot. But whoever has been forgiven little, loves little." Lk 7:47

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

don't you know that sacrifices can only be brought in the land, and that the temple must be there for that (paul did both of these things (even as a believer), when he brought the required nazarite offering - his hair and a bull, and a ritual baptism). A sad thing to be legalistic....

some might argue that the law should be followed by jewish believers, but is not required for gentile believers, but then this raises a whole set of new questions....

please can someone tell me what the terms of the new covenant are... i know the parties, and know about the sacrifice, but what are the conditions.....


Steve

Hi. What is the New Covenant Jesus brought to the Jews? What is different about it than the Old one they were under?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Jeremiah 31:33 That this the-Covenant which I-shall-Cut/03772 karath with house-of Yisra'el after the-days, those, declaration-of YHWH.
I-give Law of Me within-them and-on heart-of-them I-shall-write-her. And-I-become to-them for-Elohiym, and-they they-shall-become to-Me for-people.

Hebrew 8:10 That this the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> which I shall be Covenanting/diaqhsomai <1303> (5695) to the House of Israel after the days, those, is saying Lord. Giving laws of Me into the minds of them,and upon hearts of them I shall be engraving them. And I shall be to them into Elohiym and they shall be to Me into a People.

 

[cyberlizard]

There aren't any conditions, except to hear the gospel. When a person hears the gospel, he or she is convicted of sin. The response to that is either to repent (turn from sin, and commit one's life to the one who died on one's behalf) or carry on with one's life as before, ignoring the one who died. Those who repent live in gratitude, loving all. There are no rules at all. Either one loves, because one has been forgiven, or one does not. It all sorts itself out.

The most important part of the Scripture, in a very real sense, is this:

"Her many sins have been forgiven, because she loved a lot. But whoever has been forgiven little, loves little." Lk 7:47

to say there are no rules is tantamount to the word 'unprincipled' in the NT which means 'without Torah'. Repentance is the key but it does not give license to live as we please. I'm sure that is not what you mean, but it is what you say.

Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

to say there are no rules is tantamount to the word 'unprincipled' in the NT which means 'without Torah'. Repentance is the key but it does not give license to live as we please. I'm sure that is not what you mean, but it is what you say.

Steve

Hi. Jesus says the same thing here His people.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Mark 1:15 And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared the Kingdom of the GOD/YHWH.
Be ye reforming/repenting/metanoeite <3340> (5720)!, and be ye believing! in the Good-Message".

Reve 2:5 Be thou remembering then! , whence/which-place thou hast fallen and reform/repent/metanohson <3340> (5657) thou! And the first works, thou do ! If yet no, I am coming to thee quickly, and shall be removing the Lamp-stand of thee out of the Place of her, if ever no thou should be reforming/repenting/metanohshV <3340> (5661)".

 

[calluna]

to say there are no rules is tantamount to the word 'unprincipled' in the NT which means 'without Torah'.

I hope that 'Torah' here means what Abraham obeyed, not what Moses taught.

Repentance is the key but it does not give license to live as we please.

If what pleases us is love, then it does. It's all about love, because He first loved.

In a sense, the saint is justified by love.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I hope that 'Torah' here means what Abraham obeyed, not what Moses taught.


If what pleases us is love, then it does. It's all about love, because He first loved.

In a sense, the saint is justified by love.

Ever look at this Covenantle parable in Luke 16

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this."..............
29 Saying to him, Abraham: "They are having Moses and the Prophets: Let them hearken to them"!

 

[calluna]

Ever look at this Covenantle parable in Luke 16

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this."..............
29 Saying to him, Abraham: "They are having Moses and the Prophets: Let them hearken to them"!

As it stands, this post could be taken as deliberate misrepresentation,

 

[cyberlizard]

it seems we have (at least superficially) got two faiths,

one which follows the teaching of Jesus, where he says the authority of the Torah will not pass away until everything if completed (we are not there yet),

or

the teaching of Paul (which some make say the Torah is of no value - even though paul would disagree with this) (even though he says the Torah is holy and righteous, and many other good things about it).

something is amiss!

if it is all about love, then John says in his epistles that 'if we love Him (YHVH) we will obey His commandments".... so faith without works is dead! It is about love outworking itself into obedience through the power of the Spirit.

Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As it stands, this post could be taken as deliberate misrepresentation,

How so? This is a commentary on it from a Messianic Jew:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest Day and Night........[Hebrew 4:3]

 

[MamaZ]

if it is all about love, then John says in his epistles that 'if we love Him (YHVH) we will obey His commandments".... so faith without works is dead! It is about love outworking itself into obedience through the power of the Spirit.

Acutally what John says in his epistle is that if we love Him we shall obey His commandments then He goes on to say and this is His commandment that we love one another,.

 

[calluna]

it seems we have (at least superficially) got two faiths,

one which follows the teaching of Jesus, where he says the authority of the Torah will not pass away until everything if completed (we are not there yet),

or

the teaching of Paul (which some make say the Torah is of no value - even though paul would disagree with this) (even though he says the Torah is holy and righteous, and many other good things about it).

something is amiss!

The rest of the sentence is missing. What does Paul teach that contradicts Jesus' statement, superficially or otherwise?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the teaching of Paul (which some make say the Torah is of no value - even though paul would disagree with this) (even though he says the Torah is holy and righteous, and many other good things about it).

There are some sects within Christianity that do declare "saul/paul" a liar and deceiver.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are ill-minded any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings/grafaV <1124>, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [form of # 684 used in reve 17:8, 11]

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

........There are a number of historical facts, including things that both Yahshua and Paul said as recorded in the Bible,that leave us with some very compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven................

 

[cyberlizard]

the problem is, if the authority of the law of moses which is actually the law of God, is diminished, Jesus' teachings have no real value and cannot be said to be authoritative either.

if moses is weak, then jesus' teaching is based on weak teaching also.

Steve

p.s. which sentence do you mean is missing.... this one... "So whoever sets asidee one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (the context of it all is the practical outworking of the Torah of God)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the problem is, if the authority of the law of moses which is actually the law of God, is diminished, Jesus' teachings have no real value and cannot be said to be authoritative either.

if moses is weak, then jesus' teaching is based on weak teaching also.

Hi. Are you Messianic by any chance? What did Jesus mean when He was telling His people, the Jews, about "Rest"? Rest from what? Thoughts?

Matthew 11:29 Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall find be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to the souls of ye;

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night

 

[calluna]

which sentence do you mean is missing.

Just tell us what Paul wrote that contradicts that quote of Jesus.

 

[cyberlizard]

paul actually wrote nothing that contradicts but we interpret it that what.


jesus upheld the authority and eternal nature of the law.... paul appears to say 'christ is the end of the law to all who believe'.

what does he mean

 

[cyberlizard]

rest... i could do with some....

but looking at the passage it cannot be rest in the sense of doing nothing, otherwise the farming 'yoke' picture does not work. However, if we interpret yoke according to the rabbinic principle of a disciple practising according to their rabbis understanding of torah it makes very good sense. A yoke is a way of understanding and implementing Torah.

even in revelation where we have supposedly 'entered into that rest' their are still works to be done.

Does this make any sense?

Steve

p.s. no i am not messianic, I go to a church that whilst not part of the AoG is still affiliated to them, i am charismatic through and through.

 

[calluna]

paul appears to say 'christ is the end of the law to all who believe'.

what does he mean

What he says. For unbelievers, the law does not lose its force until the last day.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

paul actually wrote nothing that contradicts but we interpret it that what.


jesus upheld the authority and eternal nature of the law.... paul appears to say 'christ is the end of the law to all who believe'.

what does he mean

Why did Jesus come to the Jews? To keep them under the OC Law of Moses? Btw, I view Revelation as fulfilled for them.

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn not no may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638) "

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out Voice, great, out of the sanctuary from the throne saying :"it-has-become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).