Christians and Sinning

[Radrook]

I'm sorry, but belief in Free Will is an illusion.

We do have Dominion, which was given to Adam for the ordering of our lives, and within this Dominion we do have the ability to make choices.

But Free Will only pertains to our ability to sin or not sin, it doesn't even pertain to an ability to reject Salvation, or even walk away from it once received.

The best demonstration in the Bible which shows our lack of Free Will is in the very chapter you have used as your example (FOR) Free Will.

Rom 7:14-21
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Being sold under sin refers to being a SLAVE of Sin.

No Slave has Free Will, this next verse backs up the one above.

Rom. 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Now to continue with Rom.7

15) For that which I do I allow not:
for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not,
I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not,
it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law,
that, when I would do good,
evil is present with me.

This whole recitation of Paul's is an example of Sin happening even against the Will or (Free Will), because Sin is part of our makeup as human beings, it's what is called, our Sinful Nature.

There isn't any teaching by any writer in the Bible including Jesus, which give us any understanding of how we are to deal with Free Will,.... If, it is such an important part of us, why not?

But, there is a lot of teaching which says we cannot resist Sin, we are slaves of Sin, as with the verses above.

Even after a person is Saved and Baptized, they Sin.

But God be Praised, He has even made provision for our Sinful Nature, remember, we were Saved when we were still Sinners, this means nothing has changed.

Except the understanding of what the magnitude of Gods' Grace actually is.

Rom. 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I will sum it up this way, I'll make it simple.

If we as Christians are.
1) Dead to the Law
2) Dead to Sin
3) Dead to the Flesh

How does a Christian sin?

That is where Gods' Grace comes in, it's in our understanding of our standing in Jesus Christ.

Be Blessed

Please remember, that we cannot consider ourselves slaves to sin as you are saying because we have a liberator-Christ Jesus.

Paul was merely speaking about a tendency, an inherent condition brought about by Adam who via his disobedience sold our birthright of perfection to a slave master called Sin.

So a price had to be paid to liberate us.

That price was paid by Jesus out redeemer.

1 Corinthians 6:20 ►
New International Version
you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

That’s why we are referred to as being purchased

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

Revelation 5:9

And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

That’s why we are referred to as no longer being slaves to sin:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Rom 6:20
Jubilee Bible 2000
For being previously the slaves of sin, now ye have been made the slaves of righteousness.

[/quote]

 

[JIMINZ]

No.

We can still sin, sin is still a problem if we do, and in cases where we go to far with that sin, and don't repent and ask forgivenss we can lose salvation altogether.

Your way of thinking says there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.

There would have been no sense in Christ teaching us to pray along the lines of the following had we not been able to sin, and that's just one of many things that puts an end to what you wrongly teach here.

"Forgive us out trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Why ask God to forgive us if there is no sin after we are saved??

Your theology allows people to do whatever they wish, it not be counted against them as sin, so they still can go to heaven, no matter what they do, how much of it they do, whether they ask forgiveness or not or whether they repent or not.. That is what your post was designed to lead to, and when you told me it had nothing to do with OSAS, that was not accurate.

Are you not teaching Once Saved Always Saved? If not, how is it any different?

Hi Kenny

There have been 5 verses and one question asked.

If your belief is, those verses are not true, Refute them.

Then answer the question.

Be Blessed

 

[JIMINZ]

Please remember, that we cannot consider ourselves slaves to sin as you are saying because we have a liberator-Christ Jesus.

Hi Redrook

Clarification of my position.

1) Non-Christians are the Servants (Slaves) of sin. Jn. 8:34
2) Christians have been freed from sin. Rom.6:7
3) Sin still resides in the body. Rom. 7:15-21
4) Sin has been Condemned in the Flesh. Rom. 8:3
5) Christians are dead to the Law. Rom. 7:4
6) Christians are the Servants (Slaves) of God. Eph. 2:10

Hope this helps.

Be Blessed

 

[Reformationist]

At what point did I even indicate I wasn't a sinner?

I'm not aware I said you indicated anything of the sort so why all the unnecessary self righteous indignation? Here's a conversational tactic you should look into: A strawman. I encourage you to research it because it's a tactic you seem to regularly employ, though I acknowledge the possibility that you do so without intent. Either way, it's never helpful in having a productive discussion.

And yes, free will, the only way God will have it. He's not going to force us to do a thing.

Um...great. Who said God forced us to do something? And for that matter, what is "it" to which you're referring?

I would like to understand your view on this. It might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature? Did they have a will? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.? When Adam and Eve rebelled against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to the constituent nature or did they remain the same?

That's probably a good start. I look forward to your answers.

 

[Reformationist]

So we do have free will in choosing to repent and attaining that imputed righteousness. as we also have free will to reject that imputed righteousness and remain unforgiven.

So, essentially, the efficacy of the "ransom sacrifice" is contingent upon our work of repentance, is that it?

So ultimately it comes down to a choice or an exercise of our free will:

What comes down to a choice? Forgiveness? Scriptures explicit that it is not man's exercise of his will that determines that:

Romans 9:15,16
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

God bless

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hi Kenny

There have been 5 verses and one question asked.

If your belief is, those verses are not true, Refute them.

.

We already discussed that and repeating yourself while ignoring the question that asked of you exactly what those verses mean to you makes it a one way conversation. People who want their side to prevail regardless of whether it is right or wrong, tend to do things like ignore the arguments against them and make it a one sided conversation where their side is the only one that matters.

Now answer the question or keep repeating what you have been and hope no one will notice how the shield that you think saves you from backing up what you are saying is not only worn out , but was ineffective to begin with.

And BTW, how do your five verses make the other content in my post worthy of being skipped? Your skipping questions and comment towards you left and right, and once again because you don't want fair exchange of ideas, you only want your side heard, ignoring anything that might thwart what you are saying.

Go go back and read the lat post of mine that you replied to and touch on all of it. You might as well just be telling us I'm right and you are wrong and I'm ignoring your input. That in mind, why are you even here?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Um...great. Who said God forced us to do something?

See? you can't even admit the opposite of free will is forcing. You're going to argue with everything. When I picked up on that from the start, I should have just stuck with dropping the conversation as I suggested.

As I already indicated, there is no sense in carrying on a conversation with you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

2) Christians have been freed from sin. Rom.6:7
3) Sin still resides in the body. Rom. 7:15-21

Do Christians still have a body?

 

[JIMINZ]

.

Now answer the question or keep repeating what you have been and hope no one will notice how the shield that you think saves you from backing up what you are saying is not only worn out , but was ineffective to begin with.

My shield seems to be in perfect working order.

Eph. 6:16
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

 

[Kenny'sID]

My shield seems to be in perfect working order.

I just edited the post you replied to but I can already see you're doing the same ol' same ol'. Are you aware of what a fair exchange in a conversation even is?

Again, if it's just your side, why even bother. You have to back up what you are teaching or most people aren't going to buy it..

 

[Reformationist]

See? you can't even admit the opposite of free will is forcing.

Once again Watson, "strawman argument." Check it out. I think it would help you.

You're going to argue with everything.

No, not everything. Just witless blather trying to disguise itself as coherency.

When I picked up on that from the start, I should have just stuck with dropping the conversation as I suggested.

Had you done that, you wouldn't have had the chance to dumb down the conversation and accuse me of purporting things I don't actually believe. Where is the fun in that for you?

As I already indicated, there is no sense in carrying on a conversation with you.

Ironically, this last comment would've been sufficient as a response. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have allowed you to hurl your self righteous tripe in my direction. It's fine. Run along and play with the others who credit their own actions as the source of their personal appropriation of God's grace.

Buh bye.

 

[Reformationist]

I just edited the post you replied to but I can already see you're doing the same ol' same ol'. Are you aware of what a fair exchange in a conversation even is?

Again, if it's just your side, why even bother. You have to back up what you are teaching or most people aren't going to buy it..

I pray that I'm not the only one who sees the irony in this person making this statement...

 

[Kenny'sID]

Once again Watson, "strawman argument." Check it out. I think it would help you.



No, not everything. Just witless blather trying to disguise itself as coherency.



Had you done that, you wouldn't have had the chance to dumb down the conversation and accuse me of purporting things I don't actually believe. Where is the fun in that for you?



Ironically, this last comment would've been sufficient as a response. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have allowed you to hurl your self righteous tripe in my direction. It's fine. Run along and play with the others who credit their own actions as the source of their personal appropriation of God's grace.

Buh bye.

Nothing new there, upset the opposition until they waste some more of their time.

I love it when people just can't stop showing what they're about.

Thank you for the substantiation.

 

[Reformationist]

Nothing new there, upset the opposition until they waste some more of their time.

I love it when people just can't stop showing what they're about.

Thank you for the substantiation.

Lol! Trust me, you are not the opposition. You'd have to actually have a sound argument to be that.

Don't go away mad. Just...go away.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Lol! Trust me, you are not the opposition. You'd have to actually have a sound argument to be that.

Don't go away mad. Just...go away.

Yikes

 

[black.hawk]

1) What makes it possible for a Christian to sin?

Free will of course - Prior to the Fall, Adam did not have the Original Sin - Which made all his descendants prone to sin - But it was the agency of free will which allowed Adam to transgress God's commandment.

On top of this, the existence of Satan's influence is a constant temptation for Christians to forget their relationship with God (1 John 5:19).

2) What makes it possible for a Christian to not sin?

By obedience to God's commandment and acceptance of the Teachings of Christ, a Christian can learn to resist temptation and to follow a righteous path by rejecting evil (Luke 10:28; Romans 10:9).