Christians and Sinning

[Foxfyre]

Two points of view, can anyone explain?

1) What makes it possible for a Christian to sin?

2) What makes it possible for a Christian to not sin?

What makes it possible for we Christians to sin are human impulses, greed, desire, anger, hate, lust, fear, ignorance, or sometimes just what is easiest to do at the time. All of us have fallen short. We are all sinners in one way or another via commission and/or omission and that is why we need forgiveness, redemption, a Savior.

I suspect the only thing that will keep us from sinning is entrance into heaven, and I'm not 100% sure about that.

I do believe that those who are closest to keeping Jesus' commandment to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and to treat others as we want to be treated will probably sin a whole lot less than those who just blow that off as Bible talk.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If your belief is, those verses are not true, Refute them.

Be Blessed

I see, it's as I understood, you cannot answer some simple questions posed to you while pretending our posts are no knowledgeable as your excuse for not doing so..

That being the case, I'd say you don't have a very stable case, not even close. as far as refuting your verses, they mean diffident things to different people, tell us one by one what they tell you so I can refute.

If you 'd rather not do that, nothing new, some just can't stand behind their points and there is usually a good reason for that.

 

[JIMINZ]

Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion.

-CryptoLutheran

That will be, when you are capable of refuting the verses.

You do know the meaning of...."To Refute"

Be Blessed

 

[JIMINZ]

I see, it's as I understood, you cannot answer some simple questions posed to you while pretending our posts are no knowledgeable as your excuse for not doing so..

That being the case, I'd say you don't have a very stable case, not even close. as far as refuting your verses, they mean diffident things to different people, tell us one by one what they tell you so I can refute.

If you 'd rather not do that, nothing new, some just can't stand behind their points and there is usually a good reason for that.

If your belief is, those verses are not true, Refute them.

You do know the meaning of...."To Refute"

Be Blessed

 

[JIMINZ]

What makes it possible for we Christians to sin are human impulses, greed, desire, anger, hate, lust, fear, ignorance, or sometimes just what is easiest to do at the time.

Hi Foxfyre

Paul's answer to that was.
Gal. 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

You have Crucified the Flesh, haven't you?

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You are in the Spirit aren't you, you do have the Sprit of Christ.....Right?

All of us have fallen short. We are all sinners in one way or another via commission and/or omission and that is why we need forgiveness, redemption, a Savior.

Yes we have Paul says so, but this is before we are Saved.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Paul says we have received Forgiveness.

Rom. 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Col. 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Paul says we have been Redeemed.

Gal. 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I suspect the only thing that will keep us from sinning is entrance into heaven, and I'm not 100% sure about that.

We are dead to sin
Rom 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:10,11
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom. 6:3-7
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Jn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Be Blessed

 

[redleghunter]

Two points of view, can anyone explain?

1) What makes it possible for a Christian to sin?

2) What makes it possible for a Christian to not sin?

Does your poll have the option of multiple answers?

 

[JIMINZ]

Does your poll have the option of multiple answers?

Hi Redleg

Throw out your opinions, we will see what develops.

Doesn't seem to have deterred anyone else so far.

Be Blessed

 

[Foxfyre]

Hi Foxfyre

Paul's answer to that was.
Gal. 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

You have Crucified the Flesh, haven't you?

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You are in the Spirit aren't you, you do have the Sprit of Christ.....Right?



Yes we have Paul says so, but this is before we are Saved.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Paul says we have received Forgiveness.

Rom. 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Col. 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Paul says we have been Redeemed.

Gal. 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:



We are dead to sin
Rom 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:10,11
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom. 6:3-7
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Jn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Be Blessed

1 John speaks of Jesus though who did not sin. The rest of us are not 'born of God' but are adopted children of God. And I simply believe none of us are strong enough or wise enough to keep from sinning in any way. I do think those who love God are more likely to keep from disobeying God's will for us and not grieve the Spirit. We are aware of our sin and more likely to feel convicted by it and will ask forgiveness and for strength to not sin again.

But we all need forgiveness and that comes with God's commandment to forgive others.

 

[JIMINZ]

1 John speaks of Jesus though who did not sin. The rest of us are not 'born of God' but are adopted children of God. And I simply believe none of us are strong enough or wise enough to keep from sinning in any way. I do think those who love God are more likely to keep from disobeying God's will for us and not grieve the Spirit. We are aware of our sin and more likely to feel convicted by it and will ask forgiveness and for strength to not sin again.

But we all need forgiveness and that comes with God's commandment to forgive others.

How about these verses ?

1Jn. 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

1Jn. 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jn. 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn. 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world:
and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn. 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are we truly not born of God?

Be Blessed

 

[redleghunter]

Hi Redleg

Throw out your opinions, we will see what develops.

Doesn't seem to have deterred anyone else so far.

Be Blessed

I just asked about the poll. Your poll asked if Christians can sin or not sin. Both answers can be correct.

 

[JIMINZ]

I just asked about the poll. Your poll asked if Christians can sin or not sin. Both answers can be correct.

That's the question, if you can't decide whether or not a Christian can sin, voice your beliefs, and we can discuss them.

The poll did ask for an explanation of your belief either way, not just a vote.

Be Blessed

 

[Foxfyre]

How about these verses ?

1Jn. 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

1Jn. 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jn. 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn. 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world:
and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn. 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Are we truly not born of God?

Be Blessed

You make a good argument, but I believe I am redeemed by the grace of God and yet I know I am a sinner. So I will go with Paul's version as he wrote the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:5-8 NIV - For he chose us through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption; the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us.​

If I thought my salvation was not secure because I have been unable to achieve perfection and still fall short, I would have to say what's the point? I just think we're all a work in progress with a lot of detours and roadblocks along the way, but that is much easier to complete with God's armor to strengthen us.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

 

[JIMINZ]

You make a good argument, but I believe I am redeemed by the grace of God and yet I know I am a sinner.

1) What were you Redeemed from?

2) How do you know your a sinner?

So I will go with Paul's version as he wrote the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:5-8 NIV -
5 For he chose us through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
6 In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7 In him we have redemption; the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
8 that he lavished on us.​

​

I agree with everything Paul said, no argument from me.

If I thought my salvation was not secure because I have been unable to achieve perfection and still fall short, I would have to say what's the point?

Paul said basically the same thing this way.

1Co. 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Do you really believe God is going to leave you hanging out there, after he has gone through everything He did for you?

Now understand this, this thread isn't about Perfectionism.

Perfection was never mentioned by me at any time.

I just think we're all a work in progress with a lot of detours and roadblocks along the way, but that is much easier to complete with God's armor to strengthen us.

These are the types of beliefs, I am attempting to get people to understand

Read my post #59 on page #3 and if you would, answer the question at the end of my post.

Ecclesiastes

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

That was true until Christ wasn't it, then there is us in Him.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Be Blessed

 

[Reformationist]

Any and all of us can sin right now, this very minute to prove that we can sin, and it's bizarre to me how anyone can think we can't...it's just so elementary.

That is a bizarre thought. It's not a position I've endorsed so I'm unsure why you keep attempting to attribute to me.

That said, trying to convince you there is nothing forcing us to sin so there is no "must sin" to it, though elementary as well, would probably be impossible.

Well my dear Watson, you repeatedly saying a thought is "elementary" doesn't make your opinion biblical. What I actually intimated was that the thing that "forces" us to sin is nothing less than the sin within us. In his unregenerate state, man's nature is a sin nature. Simply put, he sins because he's a sinner and he is subject to the compelling influence of his fallen nature in all that he does and in all that he thinks. In short, he can only sin as nothing he does stems from faith in God. In the case of those who have been redeemed, though their nature is no longer a sin nature, they remain in their broken, sinful flesh. This inherent proclivity of the corrupt flesh to seek after what God forbids contrary to the redeemed nature is the dichotomy of which Paul speaks in Romans 7:21-25:

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I was going to answer each of your individual comments but not only do they not prove a thing. It appears you are just forming your posts to disagree with everything I say, so you can make some other points, just to show you have points. That's rare but I've seen it before.

Thank you for sparing us all from having to endure more of your unbiblical nonsense.

Don't try to understand that, in all sincerity, I just ask you keep it in mind, it could be helpful one day if what I'm telling you clicks.

Well, let's just pray that the day never comes when the unbiblical nonsense you've espoused "clicks."

And then your last comment that I did quote, tells me so much. You clearly think an awful lot of yourself, and you with very little to no reason, automatically put your knowledge above others in assuming yourself schooled and others not, and only because they disagree with you.

Lol! No Watson. I don't put my knowledge above yours because you disagree with me. I put my understanding of this issue above yours because my perspective is biblical and, well, yours is not.

Here's what is very telling to me. You are condescending towards others opinions and you see nothing wrong with that. Then, when someone points that out, you repeatedly argue against a point they, in this case I, never made. That being, that man cannot sin. The only time I've indicated that man is incapable of sin is when he is glorified in Heaven and that, only because God confirms him in that state of perpetual grace. Glorified man is incapable of sinning simply because he will never desire to sin.

So, with that way of thinking, not only will we clash, but we won't get anywhere with even the simplest of disagreements like this one, hence should probably give it up.

I always find it amusing when people voice their opinion and, after they've done so, suggest no further discussion would be prudent. Listen Watson, if you want to bow out, feel free. I won't stop you. I might even appreciate it.

 

[JIMINZ]

I intimated that the thing that "forces" us to sin is nothing less than the sin within us. In his unregenerate state, man's nature is a sin nature. Simply put, he sins because he's a sinner and he is subject to the compelling influence of his fallen nature in all that he does and in all that he thinks. In short, he can only sin as nothing he does stems from faith in God. In the case of those who have been redeemed, though their nature is no longer a sin nature, they remain in their broken, sinful flesh. This inherent proclivity of the corrupt flesh to seek after what God forbids contrary to the redeemed nature is the dichotomy of which Paul speaks in Romans 7:21-25:

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Hi Reformationest

Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Verse 25 is a summation of what Paul was talking about in all of ch.7 He reconciles it all.

Now in Romans 8 after what you just quoted from. Rom. 7:25, Paul clears up the dichotomy of being in the Body after Salvation, the question of our Flesh sinning is resolved.

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul here is explaining how the position of us remaining in our bodies is taken care of, he is in essence answering the question he posed in verse 24

Rom. 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom. 8:3,4 are how God solved it all for us.

Have you read my post # 59 on page 3#

Be Blessed

 

[Kenny'sID]

That is a bizarre thought. It's not a position I've endorsed so I'm unsure why you keep attempting to attribute to me.



Well my dear Watson, you repeatedly saying a thought is "elementary" doesn't make your opinion biblical. What I actually intimated was that the thing that "forces" us to sin is nothing less than the sin within us. In his unregenerate state, man's nature is a sin nature. Simply put, he sins because he's a sinner and he is subject to the compelling influence of his fallen nature in all that he does and in all that he thinks. In short, he can only sin as nothing he does stems from faith in God. In the case of those who have been redeemed, though their nature is no longer a sin nature, they remain in their broken, sinful flesh. This inherent proclivity of the corrupt flesh to seek after what God forbids contrary to the redeemed nature is the dichotomy of which Paul speaks in Romans 7:21-25:

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



Thank you for sparing us all from having to endure more of your unbiblical nonsense.



Well, let's just pray that the day never comes when the unbiblical nonsense you've espoused "clicks."



Lol! No Watson. I don't put my knowledge above yours because you disagree with me. I put my understanding of this issue above yours because my perspective is biblical and, well, yours is not.

Here's what is very telling to me. You are condescending towards others opinions and you see nothing wrong with that. Then, when someone points that out, you repeatedly argue against a point they, in this case I, never made. That being, that man cannot sin. The only time I've indicated that man is incapable of sin is when he is glorified in Heaven and that, only because God confirms him in that state of perpetual grace. Glorified man is incapable of sinning simply because he will never desire to sin.



I always find it amusing when people voice their opinion and, after they've done so, suggest no further discussion would be prudent. Listen Watson, if you want to bow out, feel free. I won't stop you. I might even appreciate it.

In general nothing forces us to sin. A sinful nature does not mean we have no control, we sin if we choose to, we don't if we choose not to.

That's always going to be my take.

 

[Foxfyre]

1) What were you Redeemed from?

2) How do you know your a sinner?

​

I agree with everything Paul said, no argument from me.



Paul said basically the same thing this way.

1Co. 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Do you really believe God is going to leave you hanging out there, after he has gone through everything He did for you?

Now understand this, this thread isn't about Perfectionism.

Perfection was never mentioned by me at any time.



These are the types of beliefs, I am attempting to get people to understand

Read my post #59 on page #3 and if you would, answer the question at the end of my post.


That was true until Christ wasn't it, then there is us in Him.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Be Blessed

I think we are on the same page my friend. To your opening questions, I was redeemed from the ultimate penalty I deserved my sinful behavior. But I know I am a sinner because I know I do things that are harmful to me and/or others which is my definition of sin. There are very few days that I don't have something I need to confess even if it is too much salt on my popcorn or the recyclable can I didn't bother to put in the recycle bin.

I'll go look for Post #59.

 

[Foxfyre]

A contrast.

1) In relation to mankind.

The only thing which separates mankind from God is Sin, and Sin is only determined by the Law.

Rom. 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: (FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN).

Rom. 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: (BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHERE THERE IS NO LAW).



2) In relation to the Believer.

Gal. 2:19
(FOR I THROUGH THE LAW AM DEAD TO THE LAW), that I might live unto God.

Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: (FOR WHERE NO LAW IS), (THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION)

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, (YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST); that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Therefore what we see from Scripture is, Sin separates mankind from God, because by the Law is the knowledge of Sin, Scripture then says the Believer through the Law is dead to the Law, Believers become dead to the Law by the body of Christ.

So then, how does a Believer Sin, when Believers are dead to the Law?

Be Blessed

You asked me to answer your closing question. I'm afraid that one is a little too theologically out there to really resonate with me.

All I know is that I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get to live a life pleasing to the Lord. Sin to me is that which is harmful to me and/or others either right now or even into many future generations. So I spend some time apologizing to God every day and feel so grateful to know he loves me and is there for me even when I'm not at my best.

I don't see that as license to deliberately sin because we're saved from any penalty though. And none of this has anything to do with the Law. I do believe I am not bound by the Law but I am bound to love God and do my best to show it.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi Reformationest

Hello.

Now in Romans 8 after what you just quoted from. Rom. 7:25, Paul clears up the dichotomy of being in the Body after Salvation, the question of our Flesh sinning is resolved.

Rom 8:3,4

3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul here is explaining how the position of us remaining in our bodies is taken care of, he is in essence answering the question he posed in verse 24

Rom. 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom. 8:3,4 are how God solved it all for us.

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Can you clarify for me?

 

[Reformationist]

In general nothing forces us to sin. A sinful nature does not mean we have no control, we sin if we choose to, we don't if we choose not to.

That's always going to be my take.

Great. I've said as much myself. Sinning is a choice. But those with a sinful nature will never choose to obey God from faith because, first, they have no faith, and second, their nature is at enmity with God. As such, even their acts of civic virtue are sinful. In short, those with a sinful nature can only sin. The fact that it is their own nature that compels them to sin is irrelevant. They are compelled just the same and will always act in accordance with their nature.