Christians and Sinning

Can a Christian

  • SIN

    Votes: 15 68.2%
  • NOT SIN

    Votes: 7 31.8%

  • Total voters
    22

Kenny'sID

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Great. I've said as much myself. Sinning is a choice. But those with a sinful nature will never choose to obey God from faith because, first, they have no faith, and second, their nature is at enmity with God. As such, even their acts of civic virtue are sinful. In short, those with a sinful nature can only sin. The fact that it is their own nature that compels them to sin is irrelevant. They are compelled just the same and will always act in accordance with their nature.

I think were from a completely different school of thought. As far as I know or ever have know, even those with faith, and even some with lots of faith, still have a sinful nature. as evidenced by King David, a man after God's own heart who loved God's Law, yet his sin nature completely got the best of him, I mean way over the line.
 
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Reformationist

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I think were from a completely different school of thought. As far as I know or ever have know, even those with faith, and even some with lots of faith, still have a sinful nature. as evidenced by King David, a man after God's own heart who loved God's Law, yet his sin nature completely got the best of him, I mean way over the line.

When I say "sinful nature," I'm referring to the manner in which the Bible differentiates between the nature of a fallen person who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and one who has been redeemed. The transaction of restoration that God accomplished through the vicarious atonement of His Son and the subsequent regeneration of those He quickens from death in their trespasses and sins to eternal life in Christ Jesus includes the dispensation of a new nature. Prior to this monergistic work, man is a slave to his sinfulness.

To be clear, I'm not referring to a redeemed person's residual propensity to sin. The flesh is weak and will continue to pull us toward the abomination of sin. As I said, I'm referring to the very real change to the constituent nature of man when God quickens him to life in Christ:
Ez 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

To be clear, are you saying that you don't think a person is given a new nature when they are redeemed by God?
 
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Kenny'sID

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When I say "sinful nature," I'm referring to the manner in which the Bible differentiates between the nature of a fallen person who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and one who has been redeemed. The transaction of restoration that God accomplished through the vicarious atonement of His Son and the subsequent regeneration of those He quickens from death in their trespasses and sins to eternal life in Christ Jesus includes the dispensation of a new nature. Prior to this monergistic work, man is a slave to his sinfulness.

To be clear, I'm not referring to a redeemed person's residual propensity to sin. The flesh is weak and will continue to pull us toward the abomination of sin. As I said, I'm referring to the very real change to the constituent nature of man when God quickens him to life in Christ:
Ez 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

To be clear, are you saying that you don't think a person is given a new nature when they are redeemed by God?

We definitely define sinful nature differently.

At to the new nature, I think we accept to make our nature new, when we accept the bargain God offers, but we aren't given anything that forces a new nature or poofs it into us.

We are given the holy spirit as a guide, but as far as our nature, that's up to us entirely. I would put it more in terms we chose/choose to allow a new nature. No need to make it complicated so let's just say we choose to do what God wants of us, or change our nature as much as need be, but it's still all by free will, nothing forces us to do anything, so to say we are "given" a new nature, I'd say no, that might not be the best way to put it.
 
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JIMINZ

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Hello. :)

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Can you clarify for me?


Hi again Reformationist

Sorry about the ambiguity, it got kind of confusing even to me by the time I was finished, I knew what I wanted to say, I could see it, but trying to put it into words became more difficult as I went along.
Let me try it this way.

In this verse Paul asked a rhetorical question, because he already understood the resolution of the dichotomy he had expressed in the previous verses.

Rom. 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul then sums it all up, (The entire chapter) in the last verse, by giving the resolution to his question asked in Verse 24.

Rom. 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.

Owing to the fact Paul understands where his position is, both in relation to the Spirit, and the Flesh, Paul reconciles the two, by saying in the last verse.

This is what I believe Paul was saying.
I know what I will do, I will serve (keep) the Law of God with my mind (Spirit)
All the while, my flesh (body) I will serve (keep) the Law of Sin.

The Law of Sin being.

Rom. 7:21
When I would do good, evil is present with me.

When Paul speaks about serving the Law of sin, he was NOT speaking about keeping the Law of Sin and Death, because only two verses after verse 25, he says this.

Rom. 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom. 7:5,6
5) For when we were in the flesh,
the motions of sins,
which were by the law,
did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law,
that being dead wherein we were held;
that we should serve in newness of spirit,
and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Co.15:55 ,56
55) O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?
56) The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.
It has already been concluded, we (Believers) are dead to the Law

Rom. 6:9-12
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;
death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once:
but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom. 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom. 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)
how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Therefore we are bound by the Law as long as we live.

To simplify this understanding, while we (Believers) are still alive in our body, our Flesh is dead to the Law, we remain in the Body as (man), our Body is still subject to the Dominion of the Law, but not unto death, for Christ has died for us, and we having been Crucified with Him die no more, having been Resurrected with Him unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

Be Blessed
 
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cuja1

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Two points of view, can anyone explain?

1) What makes it possible for a Christian to sin?

2) What makes it possible for a Christian to not sin?

Hi JIMINZ.
I've read most of the posts, but I'm still not 100% sure what you are saying. Are you saying that a person has to be perfect in this life (after being born again of course) to go to heaven, otherwise they are going to hell (according to the Bible as you understand it)?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Hi JIMINZ.
I've read most of the posts, but I'm still not 100% sure what you are saying. Are you saying that a person has to be perfect in this life (after being born again of course) to go to heaven, otherwise they are going to hell (according to the Bible as you understand it)?

If I may, I get the idea it's more the opposite of that, sin is no longer considered sin at all so we can be far from perfect and get to heaven, much to far for my taste, or is biblical in my view. :)
 
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cuja1

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If I may, I get the idea it's more the opposite of that, sin is no longer considered sin at all so we can be far from perfect and get to heaven, much to far for my taste, or is biblical in my view. :)
You may ☺
Ok I just wanted to make sure because I was about to kick in to scrupulosity mode if he was saying what i thought he was saying.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Maybe i need to go back through the thread a little.

Maybe, but since the OP mentioned he himself was a little put off by the way it was worded, a big part of the problem as I see, reading back may not help much. Reading on may help as he realizes what he's trying to say or just gives it up on it altogether. :)
 
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cuja1

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Maybe, but since the OP mentioned he himself was a little put off by the way it was worded, a big part of the problem as I see, reading back may not help much. Reading on may help as he realizes what he's trying to say or just gives it up on it altogether. :)
Ok just was looking for clarification. After rereading it, I think you're right.
 
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Reformationist

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We definitely define sinful nature differently.

At to the new nature, I think we accept to make our nature new, when we accept the bargain God offers, but we aren't given anything that forces a new nature or poofs it into us.

We are given the holy spirit as a guide, but as far as our nature, that's up to us entirely. I would put it more in terms we chose/choose to allow a new nature. No need to make it complicated so let's just say we choose to do what God wants of us, or change our nature as much as need be, but it's still all by free will, nothing forces us to do anything, so to say we are "given" a new nature, I'd say no, that might not be the best way to put it.

Well hey, good news. When you're standing before God on the day of your judgement, you can let Him know you made all the right choices and you "allowed" the sovereign Governer of creation the ability to work out His plan of redemption in your life. I'm not sure exactly what it is you would tell Him you're grateful for seeing as how it was your all powerful free will that regulated everything but, kudos to you. Doesn't sound like you even needed God's grace. Boast away my friend. I'm sure that will work out well for you.

For me, I'll take comfort in the knowledge that I was a wicked and vile sinner, destined for hell, guaranteed to remain in that state until my death, whereupon I would incur the just wrath of my Creator against the cosmic treason of which I was guilty, you know, because of my pesky "free will." I'll revel in the knowledge that if left to my own "freely willed" devices, I would never even seek His face. Without reservation, I'll be able to give all glory to God for my redemption, while I was yet His enemy, saving me from the burden of the just punishment for my "freely willed" sins, all because He, in His divine mercy, deigned to credit me with the righteousness of Christ.

Yeah. That's what I'm going with. But then again, maybe you're different than me. Maybe your "free will" serves as the catalyst for your salvation, you know, making it possible for God to bring His plan to fruition. I'm sure God, you know, THE God of creation, is glad you "allowed" Him to do His will. It's kinda cool actually. It's like you're just as much in control as God...almost like you and God are equal.

Cool story bro...
 
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Kenny'sID

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For me, I'll take comfort in the knowledge that I was a wicked and vile sinner, destined for hell, guaranteed to remain in that state until my death, whereupon I would incur the just wrath of my Creator against the cosmic treason of which I was guilty, you know, because of my pesky "free will."

At what point did I even indicate I wasn't a sinner? Will you please show me? And yes, free will, the only way God will have it. He's not going to force us to do a thing. And look what you made out of it.

After the fist paragraph and then the one I quoted, I didn't read the rest. It's as if you're going through a tough time or something because none of that was called for, much less deserved.

I hope whatever it is subsides and things get better for you. If that's not the problem, I'm at a loss.
 
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JIMINZ

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Hi JIMINZ.Are you saying that a person has to be perfect in this life (after being born again of course) to go to heaven, otherwise they are going to hell (according to the Bible as you understand it)?

Hi Cuga1
Pure and simple, I intentionally worded this thread to elicit the beliefs of the posters to this thread, and why they believe what it is they do believe.

I put it into the format of a poll, and then for the poster to give the reasons why they believe the way they do.

I didn't want to just make a post of my beliefs and then have the regular arguments,
(and I don't mean that in the legal terminology)
because I have read nothing but arguments since I joined this site.

Easily put, can a Believer, sin or not, give your reasons for this belief.

Plus, I didn't want another thread on Sinless Perfectionism, or Progressive Sanctification, we have enough of them, those subjects have been talked to death and still nothing has been settled, or learned by either side, from all the discussion.

Are we as Christians arguing for arguing sake, or do we really want to learn the truth found in the Word of God.

I've read most of the posts, but I'm still not 100% sure what you are saying.

First, thank you for reading them, your probably the only one who has.

Like I said, I intentionally worded this thread the way I did to find out information about what others believe.


I have then answered their beliefs with what I have found.

There are verses in the Bible which say, a person once they become a Believer are.

Dead to the Law!

So that is my belief, this is not something which I think Scripture says, alludes to, or can be Interpreted to mean, no, not at all, this is, actually what Scripture does in fact say.

If a Believer comes to the conclusion, a person once they have become a Believer cannot sin, because they are now Dead to the Law, that is a good thing isn't it?

Hasn't the Holy Spirit taught them something, a Truth?

Thanks for your response.

Be Blessed
 
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Radrook

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Two points of view, can anyone explain?

1) What makes it possible for a Christian to sin?

2) What makes it possible for a Christian to not sin?

Free will.

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
 
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Radrook

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Wow! Answered and explained in two words, your good.

You only read the OP right?

Be Blessed
There is absolutely no scriptural basis to assume that Christians are literally rendered incapable of sinning merely because they accept the Ransom Sacrifice. Paul clearly tells us that he had a continual arduous struggle with his sinful nature that that very often his sinful tendencies were victorious and that the only reason he was acceptable to God was because of an imputed righteousness based on the Ransom Sacrifice which Jesus offered for his sins.

Romans 3:
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

In short, within the parameters of our inherited imperfection our free will is hampered and we sin involuntarily. Yet we are forgiven if repentant. So we do have free will in choosing to repent and attaining that imputed righteousness. as we also have free will to reject that imputed righteousness and remain unforgiven.

Romans 7:
14We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not desire, I admit that the Law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

So ultimately it comes down to a choice or an exercise of our free will:

Deuteronomy 30:19
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
 
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JIMINZ

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There is absolutely no scriptural basis to assume that Christians are literally rendered incapable of sinning merely because they accept the Ransom Sacrifice. Paul clearly tells us that he had a continual arduous struggle with his sinful nature that that very often his sinful tendencies were victorious and that the only reason he was acceptable to God was because of an imputed righteousness based on the Ransom Sacrifice which Jesus offered for his sins.



In short, within the parameters of our inherited imperfection our free will is hampered and we sin involuntarily. Yet we are forgiven if repentant. So we do have free will in choosing to repent and attaining that imputed righteousness. as we also have free will to reject that imputed righteousness and remain unforgiven.

So ultimately it comes down to a choice or an exercise of our free will:

I'm sorry, but belief in Free Will is an illusion.

We do have Dominion, which was given to Adam for the ordering of our lives, and within this Dominion we do have the ability to make choices.

But Free Will only pertains to our ability to sin or not sin, it doesn't even pertain to an ability to reject Salvation, or even walk away from it once received.

The best demonstration in the Bible which shows our lack of Free Will is in the very chapter you have used as your example (FOR) Free Will.

Rom 7:14-21
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Being sold under sin refers to being a SLAVE of Sin.

No Slave has Free Will, this next verse backs up the one above.

Rom. 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Now to continue with Rom.7

15) For that which I do I allow not:
for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not,
I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20) Now if I do that I would not,
it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law,
that, when I would do good,
evil is present with me.

This whole recitation of Paul's is an example of Sin happening even against the Will or (Free Will), because Sin is part of our makeup as human beings, it's what is called, our Sinful Nature.

There isn't any teaching by any writer in the Bible including Jesus, which give us any understanding of how we are to deal with Free Will,.... If, it is such an important part of us, why not?

But, there is a lot of teaching which says we cannot resist Sin, we are slaves of Sin, as with the verses above.

Even after a person is Saved and Baptized, they Sin.

But God be Praised, He has even made provision for our Sinful Nature, remember, we were Saved when we were still Sinners, this means nothing has changed.

Except the understanding of what the magnitude of Gods' Grace actually is.

Rom. 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I will sum it up this way, I'll make it simple.

If we as Christians are.
1) Dead to the Law
2) Dead to Sin
3) Dead to the Flesh

How does a Christian sin?


That is where Gods' Grace comes in, it's in our understanding of our standing in Jesus Christ.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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There is absolutely no scriptural basis to assume that Christians are literally rendered incapable of sinning merely because they accept the Ransom Sacrifice.

"merely because they accept the Ransom Sacrifice.'

It goes a little deeper than that, but not much.

Let me get this straight, are you saying, you always require Scriptural evidence as a basis for your Belief?

Be Blessed
 
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Kenny'sID

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If a Believer comes to the conclusion, a person once they have become a Believer cannot sin, because they are now Dead to the Law, that is a good thing isn't it?

No.

We can still sin, sin is still a problem if we do, and in cases where we go to far with that sin, and don't repent and ask forgivenss we can lose salvation altogether.

Your way of thinking says there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.

There would have been no sense in Christ teaching us to pray along the lines of the following had we not been able to sin, and that's just one of many things that puts an end to what you wrongly teach here.

"Forgive us out trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Why ask God to forgive us if there is no sin after we are saved?? :)

Your theology allows people to do whatever they wish, it not be counted against them as sin, so they still can go to heaven, no matter what they do, how much of it they do, whether they ask forgiveness or not or whether they repent or not.. That is what your post was designed to lead to, and when you told me it had nothing to do with OSAS, that was not accurate.

Are you not teaching Once Saved Always Saved? If not, how is it any different?
 
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