Christianity has nothing to offer you while you're alive

[zoidar]

I believe John Loftus first proposed it. He called it the "outsider's test for belief". As a Christian, you are an outsider to Islam. The apologetics of that faith is not convincing. You don't believe Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse, for example. As an outsider, you aren't really even tempted to try to believe it. It's just silly...because you're an outsider.

Now the OTB is for you imagine standing outside your faith and hearing apologetics. Can you really believe that?

I imagine you wouldn't find this convincing since you say you were outside and are now inside.

But just because an outsider may find all religions equally convincing or not convincing, doesn't mean that is true. If you could go back and talk to a man a thousand years ago and say "we have been to the moon", he would say it was equally crazy as saying one has been riding a dragon.

 

[Tinker Grey]

But just because an outsider may find all religions equally convincing or not convincing, doesn't mean that is true. If you could go back and talk to a man a thousand years ago and say "we have been to the moon", he would say it was equally crazy as saying one has been riding a dragon.

The point is to take a step back and analyze your beliefs as though you were an outsider. I don't think your analogy is apt.

 

[zoidar]

Sure. What’s so convincing about it to you?

Well, without God there is no objective moral, no evil, no good, do you believe that?

 

[HitchSlap]

Well, without God there is no objective moral, no evil, no good, do you believe that?

No.

 

[zoidar]

The point is to take a step back and analyze your beliefs as though you were an outsider. I don't think your analogy is apt.

Even if that is so, who is to say we arrive at truth by analyzing? Maybe analyzing is the wrong "tool"? Are there other "tools"?

 

[zoidar]

No.

Well, then God must exist. Or how would you otherwise explain obective moral?

 

[HitchSlap]

Well, then God must exist. Or how would you otherwise explain obective moral?

We don’t need a god for morality. Moral progress and moral intuition is objective and observable.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Well, without God there is no objective moral, no evil, no good, do you believe that?

I do not believe in objective morality. I feel free however to judge things as good or bad. How? Based on my own standards.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Even if that is so, who is to say we arrive at truth by analyzing? Maybe analyzing is the wrong "tool"? Are there other "tools"?

Analyzing in the only tool. The only alternative is believing without evaluating what you are believing. That seems utterly foolish.

 

[zoidar]

I do not believe in objective morality. I feel free however to judge things as good or bad. How? Based on my own standards.

I think that was an honest and consequent answer. Some like to have the cake and eat the cake, you know. I don't know where to go from here. I will have to think about it.

 

[zoidar]

We don’t need a god for morality. Moral progress and moral intuition is objective and observable.

How do you describe objective moral? If a moral can change or develop it's subjective.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I do not believe in objective morality. I feel free however to judge things as good or bad. How? Based on my own standards.

By this, do you mean to say you do not believe there is such a thing as objective morality, or that you don't trust in whatever morality there may be that is considered objective (by others)?

 

[Tinker Grey]

By this, do you mean to say you do not believe there is such a thing as objective morality, or that you don't trust in whatever morality there may be that is considered objective (by others)?

The former.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The former.

So it is all subjective, in which case, the 'is-ought dilemma' remains. Each man is a law unto himself, and does as he pleases.

You are a true atheist: In the end, death rules and 'ought' is irrelevant.

 

[Tinker Grey]

So it is all subjective, in which case, the 'is-ought dilemma' remains. Each man is a law unto himself, and does as he pleases.

You are a true atheist: In the end, death rules and 'ought' is irrelevant.

"Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong."

 

[zoidar]

Analyzing in the only tool. The only alternative is believing without evaluating what you are believing. That seems utterly foolish.

There are a lot of things we can't understand by analyzing. Things like: What is consciousness, what does it consist of? How can "I" exist at all? Why am "I" I and not "you"? What was the cause of the universe? Etc.

Experiencing is another "tool" to understand something: "It hurts!" I don't need to analyze this, I know it's true by experience.

 

[Tinker Grey]

There are a lot of things we can't understand by analyzing. Things like: What is consciousness, what does it consist of? How can "I" exist at all? Why am "I" I and not "you"? What was the cause of the universe? Etc.

Experiencing is another "tool" to understand something: "It hurts!" I don't need to analyze this, I know it's true by experience.

I'd say that understanding your experience is analyzing. But, one will certainly not understand consciousness if one doesn't undertake to analyze it.

 

[zoidar]

I'd say that understanding your experience is analyzing. But, one will certainly not understand consciousness if one doesn't undertake to analyze it.

Maybe analyzing was a poor choice of words. What I'm trying to say is that science uses different kinds of models to show something is "true" or a good base for being true. Those models don't work for everything. The reason science hasn't discovered God, is because the methods used doesn't work with everything. We need other tools to "discover" God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Maybe analyzing was a poor choice of words. What I'm trying to say is that science uses different kinds of models to show something is "true" or a good base for being true. Those models don't work for everything. The reason science hasn't discovered God, is because the methods used doesn't work with everything. We need other tools to "discover" God.

What tools would you suggest?

 

[zoidar]

What tools would you suggest?

When it comes to discovering the truth
Buddhists use mediation. Nothing I would advice, but just pointing to another kind of "tool". I discovered truth when I repented and gave my whole life to God, so that was my "tool".