Christianity... and the fact of evolution

2PhiloVoid

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Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

I'm not saying that people "need" an outside source; I'm saying that the Bible isn't consistently clear, and thus this is why we have hundreds of various Christian denominations, dozens of (English) Bible versions and translations, and several views on various important biblical doctrines. If the Bible were ACTUALLY so clear, there'd be a lot less diversity of viewpoints about it in the Churches, even of those viewpoints pertaining to various interpretive issues which have emerged due to the apparent disparity between the concepts of literal creationism and evolution.
 
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dms1972

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In some way, I think this is what Indent is trying to imply, or that it at least "should be" sufficient. For some Christians, though, affirming the basic essence of the first verse of the Bible isn't sufficient when speaking of the 'origins' of all. :rolleyes:

Peace

I find myself at a place were what I would like is educated discussion with people, not winning arguments, or defending this or that view, or coming up with 'untouchable thelogical answers'. I level my criticism at 'ideas', particularly those people put too much confidence in such as evolution theory. I have perhaps less chance of changing the mind of an biblical literalist, and I don't attempt it, but believing in six day creation should not really make one opposed to all science.

If we all, christians and non-christians recognised with more humility how little we do know with certainty, and asked the questions that really concern us, rather than posing 'clever' questions, then maybe we would make more headway.
 
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BobRyan

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I have perhaps less chance of changing the mind of an biblical literalist, and I don't attempt it, but believing in six day creation should not really make one opposed to all science.

Amen! Christianity AND Science!

But that does not mean we need to fall for myths and legends about an amoeba turning into a rabbit.
 
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BobRyan

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Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter

Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

I'm not saying that people "need" an outside source; I'm saying that the Bible isn't consistently clear

You say it - and then make every effort to avoid the details in the Bible that refute it.

For example - Exodus does not describe "befuddled, muddled, not-sure, is it 7 days or not" stories.

Rather Exodus tells us they had food 6 days and no food the 7th day if they did not save up the extra food they got on Friday.

In other words - EVEN if an atheist reads the book - they will see that the account in the book is not about "befuddled and no clue about the 7 day week" -- but rather the account "details" are "very very very specific".

You and I both know this.

You avoid this detail and a zillion others like it when making your 7-day-week-is-confusing statements.

And we can all see it.

Why not at least try to support your own conjecture?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.



You say it - and then make every effort to avoid the details in the Bible that refute it.

For example - Exodus does not describe "befuddled, muddled, not-sure, is it 7 days or not" stories.

Rather Exodus tells us they had food 6 days and no food the 7th day if they did not save up the extra food they got on Friday.

In other words - EVEN if an atheist reads the book - they will see that the account in the book is not about "befuddled and no clue about the 7 day week" -- but rather the account "details" are "very very very specific".

You and I both know this.

You avoid this detail and a zillion others like it when making your 7-day-week-is-confusing statements.

And we can all see it.

Why not at least try to support your own conjecture?

First off, I have little in the way of any agenda to get people, or other Christians, to "believe" in the theory of evolution; in fact, I almost couldn't care less, unless the theory is getting in the way in which people are able, or therefore not able, to place their faith in God and Jesus Christ.

I "believe" in evolution because this belief of mine reflects my understanding of science and its attending evidences--and like you, I've read a whole lot (but most likely a different allotment of books and other science sources). But again, I don't expect anyone to spend their time worrying about evolution--I think we Christians, however we might disagree about Genesis 1, do agree that what is important is for people to be concerned about is the truth of God's Word.

I'm not playing games here, and I'm not concerned so much that you don't believe in evolution, that's fine with me. But I do think of Genesis 1 more as typological theology than any kind of literal, physical history. And I think it is a theological statement that affirms One God and sets the context of the Seven Day pattern of the Law in Exodus.

However, even though the 7 day Sabbath pattern is clearly established from the creation account through the Law, this doesn't mean that the Bible as a whole, especially those portions we identify as being a part of the genre of Prophecy, is or was even meant to be clearly understood. In fact, I think Deuteronomy 29:29 insinuates this.

Feel free to disagree ...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I find myself at a place were what I would like is educated discussion with people, not winning arguments, or defending this or that view, or coming up with 'untouchable thelogical answers'. I level my criticism at 'ideas', particularly those people put too much confidence in such as evolution theory. I have perhaps less chance of changing the mind of an biblical literalist, and I don't attempt it, but believing in six day creation should not really make one opposed to all science.

If we all, christians and non-christians recognised with more humility how little we do know with certainty, and asked the questions that really concern us, rather than posing 'clever' questions, then maybe we would make more headway.

Yep ... I'll "second the motion" for wanting to have educated discussions with people about the Bible and science rather than debates. (But, North American culture loves a debate ... :argh: ...unfortunately!)
 
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dms1972

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I think Intelligent Design theory has got a bad rap, and don't see ID as the same as literal 24 day creationism. All the same ID must lead back to a Creator of some kind, probably only as far as Deism, not all the way to Judeo-Christian Theism. But what I don't understand, and I don't live in America, but doesn't your Constitution say that all citizens are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Why then can Intelligent Design not be taught is what I don't understand. In any case, rightly or wrongly the decision was taken to ban it I understand from science classes, but as Kurt Vonnegut pointed out, its a perfectly natural thing to think about, and although in America while one is in a science class one cannot think about it, as soon as you leave the class you can go back to thinking about it.

But going back to evolution, the term has varying content depending on who it is using it. The way some (mainly neo-darwinists) use it would make evolution irreconcilible with Scripture. Some say it simply means 'change' but for it to be a theory it has to say a bit more than that.

I think Genesis is an Epic Poem. But before poetry came to be viewed as merely an expression of a poet's emotions, it was understood as a mode of knowing, poetic knowing, and expressing, one which comprehends things as a whole, not as scientific knowledge explains by dissection. So there are two profoundly different modes of knowing. Faith would be the highest form of the poetic way of knowing.

In one a person com-prehends ('takes in' in the sense of intellectual sym-pathy). In the other he ex-plains ('lays outside' the movement opposite to comprehend) and no act of intellectual sympathy is involved. The first is poetic knowledge, knowledge by con-naturality, the second scientific. In the modern world the scientific has been elevated, and the poetic devalued.

"Since there exist two modes of knowledge, the best attitude is...to refrain from a judgement of value, and to watch out when to use which. For most of the trouble comes when people do not keep their methodological power dry (eg. when poetic knowledge was applied to scientific problems, before the rise of modern science - or scientific knowledge is applied to domains reserved for wisdom, as people are inclined to do in the social sciences today" Karl Stern - The Flight from Woman
 
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paul becke

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One of the characteristic misunderstandings about evolution is usually under the argument of something like, "cats become dogs." I'm not saying that is what your argument is, but this is a common one that exemplifies a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory.

To properly assess what you mean by "a new creature evolving from another creature" you'd have to explain what you mean, precisely.

Because, for example, that numerous kinds of dog--what we refer to as "breeds"--are merely all variations within the subspecies Canis lupus familiaris. Since the domestic dog is a subspecies of wolf.

Speciation is specifically that phenomenon wherein changes in a population result in a new species; the working definition of a species has to do with fertile offspring resulting from a pairing. Horses and donkeys are separate species because even though they can successfully reproduce, the resulting offspring is infertile.

Speciation is said to occur when two populations descended from a common ancestor are no longer, when re-introduced, to produce fertile offspring.

While speciation is understood to usually takes many, many generations to happen, it has been observed in modern times, here is an example:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/100201_speciation

Another phenomenon is the case of what are known as ring species, such as the Larus gulls,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larus#Ring_species

Neighboring populations can interbreed, but one end of the "ring" and the other end of the "ring" cannot interbreed.

At this point, one might be tempted to say that we're still talking finches or gulls, etc. And that's fine, but the classification of organisms is a human construct--we're doing the classification, organisms don't classify themselves.

For example, we can say that coyotes and wolves are both canines. And that's accurate. But by the same token both canines and ursines are caniforms. The canine lineage and the bear lineage share a common ancestor, the same way that coyotes and wolves share a common ancestor. And that's really all there is to it.

The mechanism for changes in populations is natural selection, and this is readily acknowledged and observed even by those who reject evolution.

A cat will never produce a dog, but it's entirely possible for several populations of domesticated dog if they only breed among themselves, to over enough time be unable to breed with other populations of dogs, or wolves, and they would be regarded a new species. And this happening among populations of animals all over the world, over thousands--millions--of generations over the course of millions of years and this is precisely what we know of as evolution and its explanatory power in describing the diversity of life on earth. The only difference between what you describe as "variations of the same creature" and evolution is merely time and scale. Because given enough time variations of the same creature can result in two or more "new" creatures that share a common ancestor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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paul becke

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Read post #56, here, Via Crucis :

http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...g-the-old-there-is-no-evidence-of-god-canard/

It's about the science, as per Pauli, for example ; not about any faith-driven feeling of obligation. Not to speak of the advancement in our understanding, since Paui's day.

As Max Planck wrily observed, science advances one funeral at a time ; and 'A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'

And one might add, seemingly, a new generation whose tenures do not depend on the prevaling atheist
orthodoxy, guarded with an unambiguously totalitarian ferocity.

PS Sorry about the underlining. Can't remove it by the normal means.
 
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BobRyan

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another day of marvelling at God's glory through evolution!

Atheists say that all the time... oh now WAIT!

Darwin himself admitted that his faith in evolutionism destroyed his Christianity entirely - as did Dawkins admit the same thing
 
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BobRyan

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Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter

Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

I'm not saying that people "need" an outside source; I'm saying that the Bible isn't consistently clear

You say it - and then make every effort to avoid the details in the Bible that refute it.

For example - Exodus does not describe "befuddled, muddled, not-sure, is it 7 days or not" stories.

Rather Exodus tells us they had food 6 days and no food the 7th day if they did not save up the extra food they got on Friday.

In other words - EVEN if an atheist reads the book - they will see that the account in the book is not about "befuddled and no clue about the 7 day week" -- but rather the account "details" are "very very very specific".

You and I both know this.

You avoid this detail and a zillion others like it when making your 7-day-week-is-confusing statements.

And we can all see it.

Why not at least try to support your own conjecture?

First off, I have little in the way of any agenda to get people, or other Christians, to "believe" in the theory of evolution; in fact, I almost couldn't care less, unless the theory is getting in the way in which people are able, or therefore not able, to place their faith in God and Jesus Christ.

Which is exactly what Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, P.Z. Meyers and many others on this very board claim that it did to them as well.



F
I "believe" in evolution because this belief of mine reflects my understanding of science

Fine.

I "disbelieve" evolutionism because its wild claims that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a horse over time given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough length of time filled with improbable just-so stories that are easy enough to tell - but they are not science... trailing all the way up to the summit of mt improbable" -- are total nonsense.

So it is not merely that it contradicts the Word of God - that causes the problem for blind faith evolutionism - it is the problem that it is pure nonsense and only serves atheism at the end of the day -- as even Darwin admits.
 
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BobRyan

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But I do think of Genesis 1 more as typological theology than any kind of literal, physical history.

How do you test your speculation about the text at that point? Exegesis -- ??? or Eisegesis??

even though the 7 day Sabbath pattern is clearly established from the creation account through the Law, this doesn't mean that the Bible as a whole, especially those portions we identify as being a part of the genre of Prophecy, is or was even meant to be clearly understood.

The gospels begin with the teaching that the prophetic time period of Daniel 7 pointing to the coming of the Messiah was fulfilled - by contrast you have invented out of whole cloth the idea that prophecy was not meant to be understood. .Christ differs with your view at that point.

What is more Exodus 20:11 is legal code -- not fiction, not myth and it states clearly the very doctrine on orgins - the very affirmation of Genesis 1-2 details that blind faith evolutionism cannot tolerate. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
 
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mmksparbud

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There is a difference between translation and interpretation--at least to me.
For instance:

Again, on that whole day thing:
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,


bê'yom
m.gif
f.gif
i.gif
b.gif
בְּיוֹם (day)

Genesis 1:5
and Elohiym called out to the light,day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, day one,


yom
m.gif
f.gif
i.gif
יוֹם (day)


The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. Translation is stating that difference, interpretation is saying it means the same thing--which it obviously doesn't-one means an evening morning time period (creation days), the other (for Adam and Eve) means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer.
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html
 
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BobRyan

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The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree.

In addition Hebrew is a "high context" language in which the same word can have different meanings depending on the context.

In Ex 20:8-11 the word for Day and Days - is consistent between the days that the people work - and the days of Genesis 1-2:4 - that hardwired link "in legal code - not mythology" puts a limit on the effort to wrench the Bible to fit blind faith evolutionism
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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GOOD observation for all the other posters who try or tried to say interpretation is done by everyone.
i.e. No, YHWH forbids interpretation - it is used only by those sons of disobedience who have been deceived by interpretation in order to defend a falst interpretation.
TRANSLATION is GOOD AND HEALTHY.
interpretation is forbidden, and deceptive and wrong to do.

There is a wholly, completely different source and purpose of both.

The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. Translation is stating that difference, interpretation is saying it means the same thing--which it obviously doesn't-one means an evening morning time period (creation days), the other (for Adam and Eve) means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Evolution remains a theory, not a fact.

Everyone has a choice.
Either believe God's explanation of creation and life issues.
Or don't believe.

It is a choice.
That is why God told us to choose life that we and our seed may live.
Sounds like a plan............Because the Bible says so..........

..................

................
 
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Colter

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Gods helpers created life as we know it by the technique of evolution.

The creators of Genesis didn't know any better AND they didn't claim to be writing by divine inspiration. That theory came much, much latter. The authors were writing a book for spiritual instruction to the child like minds of Bronze age sheep herders. It was the biased and exaggerated story of the Israelite people for public consumption.
 
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Biblewriter

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Gods helpers created life as we know it by the technique of evolution.

The creators of Genesis didn't know any better AND they didn't claim to be writing by divine inspiration. That theory came much, much latter. The authors were writing a book for spiritual instruction to the child like minds of Bronze age sheep herders. It was the biased and exaggerated story of the Israelite people for public consumption.

This is ten thousand percent incorrect.

Jesus said, "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:45-47 He also said, "assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

So when you deny the absolute truth of Genesis, which was written by Moses and was the first five books of Moses, which set the Jews called "the law," you are denying the express words of Jesus.
 
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Colter

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This is ten thousand percent incorrect.

Jesus said, "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:45-47 He also said, "assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

So when you deny the absolute truth of Genesis, which was written by Moses and was the first five books of Moses, which set the Jews called "the law," you are denying the express words of Jesus.
The first 5 books? Moses even wrote about his own death after the fact! Shazamm!!

The OT books were finalized in Babylon and show signs of multiple authors, redactions and edits. They contain a number of contradictions internally and with the reality of the material world. Those books were written by Israelites for and Israelite audience AFTER they lost their capital Jerusalem and were once again in bondage.

Jewish converts to the Jesus movement may have misremembered Jesus in justification of their new religion. Jesus quoted spiritual truths from the scripture but knew they were man made and faulty.
 
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