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Christianity... and the fact of evolution

2PhiloVoid

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Why would you choose a particular scholar? And I'm asking why you have to have anyone interpret the whole bible as opposed to just interpreting the Hebrew words themselves? And for that you can search through several different sites for several scholar's opinions on certain words.

Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter as they each work to understand the meaning of what is being read and translated.

Meaning is not by necessity self-evident in a language; and just because someone may be able to read the ancient Hebrew (or even Masoretic text) doesn't mean they'll automatically understand the sometimes cryptic meanings of prophets.

How much ancient Hebrew does one need to understand that God wasn't really referring to Elijah as his words were expressed by and through the prophet Malachi? And if prophecy in Malachi was given in an indirect form of communication, let's not be hasty and assume that what Moses wrote in the opening chapters of Genesis was meant or intended to directly dissuade anyone who reads it from also doing science and possibly thinking that the world was worked on by God through various eons of time.

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mmksparbud

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Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter as they each work to understand the meaning of what is being read and translated.

Meaning is not by necessity self-evident in a language; and just because someone may be able to read the ancient Hebrew (or even Masoretic text) doesn't mean they'll automatically understand the sometimes cryptic meanings of prophets.

How much ancient Hebrew does one need to understand that God wasn't really referring to Elijah as his words were expressed by and through the prophet Malachi? And if prophecy in Malachi was given in an indirect form of communication, let's not be hasty and assume that what Moses wrote in the opening chapters of Genesis was meant or intended to directly dissuade anyone who reads it from also doing science and possibly thinking that the world was worked on by God through various eons of time.

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And why should we need someone to interpret the whole bible? Meanings are derived by many things, the words themselves, but also knowing the culture at the time it was written and how those words are used within other words. Your saying the whole book is too complicated for anyone to just red it--0they have to have someone tell them what it means---like who---the Catholic priests like they used to? God didn't intend for that. If there are different ways of interpreting one word, depending on the surrounding words---0why wouldn't there be different interpretations for how to interpret the whole book? And who gets to decide? Does that end up, as in the past, in the hands of one individual?----No thanks.
Did you read post #1092?
If you want the word "yom: to mean eons, even though the surrounding language indicates otherwise, why would you do so unless it is your preconceived idea of wanting to follow what the prevailing scientific thoughts are instead of what the bible plainly stays? If you want to believe the bible is wrong, then say the bible is wrong and believe something else, but to try and force a meaning unto a word that is inappropriate so that you can have both worlds is not right.
Heb_7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Jas_1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We are to study the bible, not the opinions of men about the bible. Studying the words is one thing, depending on the opinions of some man for how to read the bible is a crazy ides to me. You either believe the bible is the word of God or you don't.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And there is nothing that states that Moses wrote Genesis, In the entire Torah, there is not one single time where it says "I, Moses" did this or that, none of it is written in first person, it always reads, Moses did this or that. I don't care who wrote it. It is the account of what God said happened.
I can read the opinions of others, but I will decide which is the meaning most closely matching that of the author---it is my soul on the line, and it is my decision, mine and Gods' and He will lead you to truth if you're not refusing it. The question comes down to is it what God said or not, and will I believe it or not? No one can make that choice but me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And why should we need someone to interpret the whole bible? Meanings are derived by many things, the words themselves, but also knowing the culture at the time it was written and how those words are used within other words. Your saying the whole book is too complicated for anyone to just red it--0they have to have someone tell them what it means---like who---the Catholic priests like they used to? God didn't intend for that. If there are different ways of interpreting one word, depending on the surrounding words---0why wouldn't there be different interpretations for how to interpret the whole book? And who gets to decide? Does that end up, as in the past, in the hands of one individual?----No thanks.
Did you read post #1092?
If you want the word "yom: to mean eons, even though the surrounding language indicates otherwise, why would you do so unless it is your preconceived idea of wanting to follow what the prevailing scientific thoughts are instead of what the bible plainly stays? If you want to believe the bible is wrong, then say the bible is wrong and believe something else, but to try and force a meaning unto a word that is inappropriate so that you can have both worlds is not right.
Heb_7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Jas_1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We are to study the bible, not the opinions of men about the bible. Studying the words is one thing, depending on the opinions of some man for how to read the bible is a crazy ides to me. You either believe the bible is the word of God or you don't.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And there is nothing that states that Moses wrote Genesis, In the entire Torah, there is not one single time where it says "I, Moses" did this or that, none of it is written in first person, it always reads, Moses did this or that. I don't care who wrote it. It is the account of what God said happened.
I can read the opinions of others, but I will decide which is the meaning most closely matching that of the author---it is my soul on the line, and it is my decision, mine and Gods' and He will lead you to truth if you're not refusing it. The question comes down to is it what God said or not, and will I believe it or not? No one can make that choice but me.

Ok. So, what is it you think I believe?
 
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Tomm

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"Macro" and "micro" evolution are terms made up by YEC people. It's a goal post shift. There is no such distinction.


I am afraid I don't agree with you.
By the way, finally, I got the answer - your statement proves that you are an evolutionist.
 
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BobRyan

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Just like the Pope.

And you even have a cute little dragon to go with your post... interesting

In Daniel 7 that is the pagan Roman empire that follows after the demise of the Greek empire.

In Revelation 12 it is a bit more clear as to what it is doing in the dark ages.
 
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BobRyan

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"Macro" and "micro" evolution are terms made up by YEC people. It's a goal post shift. There is no such distinction.

Just "ignore the details" ??? is that the "solution" for blind faith evolutionism "again"??
 
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BobRyan

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I am afraid I don't agree with you.
By the way, finally, I got the answer - your statement proves that you are an evolutionist.

Indeed - the thread is all about blind faith evolutionism's doctrine on origins claiming "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time - given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough length of time filled with just-so stories about improbable events - stories that are easy enough to make up - but they are not science" --- as compared to real life, real science - and the Bible doctrine on origins.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's what I was trying to find out!!! It was coming across that we need someone to tell us how we should interpret the bible instead of the words and passages in it.

Fortunately, that's not what I was trying to say. So, we can both relax. :cool:

Blessings,
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BobRyan

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Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter

Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

Well, I'm so glad there are fellow Christians like yourself who have the Bible all figured out and know precisely how to judge other Christians.

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BobRyan

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Think about what you just said, mmksparbud. If one has to "interpret" the meaning of Hebrew words themselves, the fact that there is an interpretive process required means that depending on who does the interpreting, some variation can exist between the conclusions of each separate interpreter

Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

The point being (avoided) -- that the text itself is not describing "confusion about what a 7 day week is) either in Genesis 1-2 or in Exodus 20 - in legal code. And nobody has made a case for these people being confused about it as they hear about the Law. So you can't simply "blame me" for what the text says that does not fit evolutionism.

Well, I'm so glad there are fellow Christians like yourself who have the Bible all figured out and know precisely how to judge other Christians.

At any time you could show us how the text is describing "confusion about what 7 day week is or what is intended for people to do with it" in the legal code of Ex 20:8-11 or in the Genesis 2:1-3 text.

Your "solution" of "avoiding the details" repeatedly referenced - cannot be blamed on me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which is why your "give me easy-to-read-Bible 2 to interpret easy-to-read-Bible" has no end to it and does not work. Because you will just ask for Bible-3, Bible-4, Bible-n until you get an answer that you want. And the next guy can ask for Bible-n+1, Bible-N+2 ... until he gets the answer he wants


The problem in your scenario is not that you can't read easy-to-read-Bible its that you don't like what it says and hope that same easy-to-read-Bible-n will come along and you give the twist that your belief in evolutionism "needs".

A bit more transparent than maybe you had at first imagined.

The point being (avoided) -- that the text itself is not describing "confusion about what a 7 day week is) either in Genesis 1-2 or in Exodus 20 - in legal code. And nobody has made a case for these people being confused about it as they hear about the Law. So you can't simply "blame me" for what the text says that does not fit evolutionism.



At any time you could show us how the text is describing "confusion about what 7 day week is or what is intended for people to do with it" in the legal code of Ex 20:8-11 or in the Genesis 2:1-3 text.

Your "solution" of "avoiding the details" repeatedly referenced - cannot be blamed on me.

I'm avoiding details? Like what? I already said that Genesis was written to reflect 7 days. At the same time, I gave you a "heads-up" about James Barr that you haven't addressed--you just skipped it by. So, why do you think James Barr doesn't believe that creation actually took place in 7 literal days, even though he acknowledges that Genesis 1 actually states that creation took place in 7 literal days?
 
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BobRyan

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I'm avoiding details? Like what? I already said that Genesis was written to reflect 7 days. At the same time, I gave you a "heads-up" about James Barr

You seem to be saying that both you and James Barr can see that the text is speaking of a 7 day week.

So, why do you think James Barr doesn't believe that creation actually took place in 7 literal days, even though he acknowledges that Genesis 1 actually states that creation took place in 7 literal days?

1. Because no evolutionist can accept what the Bible actually says on that point.
2. Because Barr knows that atheism is a much better fit in the university when it comes to the Bible - just as Bart Ehrman points out at Chapel Hill non-stop.
3. Because Ehrman and Barr work in a context where admitting to what the Bible actually says - and then declaring the Bible to be wrong - is "a given" - and much-to-be-preferred to the option of "bending-and-wrenching" to fit atheism or evolutionism as if the Bible were somehow preaching Darwinism. Which they know none of their peers would accept as being "Reasonable" or "defensible"
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You seem to be saying that both you and James Barr can see that the text is speaking of a 7 day week.



1. Because no evolutionist can accept what the Bible actually says on that point.
2. Because Barr knows that atheism is a much better fit in the university when it comes to the Bible - just as Bart Ehrman points out at Chapel Hill non-stop.
3. Because Ehrman and Barr work in a context where admitting to what the Bible actually says - and then declaring the Bible to be wrong - is "a given" - and much-to-be-preferred to the option of "bending-and-wrenching" to fit atheism or evolutionism as if the Bible were somehow preaching Darwinism. Which they know none of their peers would accept as being "Reasonable" or "defensible"

Well, I don't think the Bible teaches evolution, but neither do I think it was written to address or refute a scientific theory like that of evolution.

Rather, I think Genesis 1 affirms God as the One and Only Creator, and this also refutes the beliefs of the pagan people in the surrounding cultures of that time who thought that the Universe came first and spit out a series of gods.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, I don't think the Bible teaches evolution, but neither do I think it was written to address or refute a scientific theory .

If you think a literal 7 day creation week such we find in Genesis 1-2 and Exodus 20:8-11 does not contradict evolutionism's doctrine on origins - you have lots of room to show how that makes sense.

But when it comes to claiming that "real science" -- "real life" does not contradict the 7 day creation week of the Bible that we see in Ex 20:8-11 and Genesis 1-2... well that has been my point all along.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you think a literal 7 day creation week such we find in Genesis 1-2 and Exodus 20:8-11 does not contradict evolutionism's doctrine on origins - you have lots of room to show how that makes sense.

But when it comes to claiming that "real science" -- "real life" does not contradict the 7 day creation week of the Bible that we see in Ex 20:8-11 and Genesis 1-2... well that has been my point all along.

You mean, "real science" as reflected in the following book? ---

Ogg, J. G., Ogg, G., & Gradstein, F. M. (2016). A Concise Geologic Time Scale: 2016. Elsevier.
 
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BobRyan

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Real science - as in observations in nature over "stories easy enough to tell but they are not science because there is no way of putting them to the test" -- Collin Patterson

Real science - real observations in nature instead of


the doctrine on origins found in blind faith evolutionism -- claiming that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time - given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough length of time filled with just-so stories about improbable events - stories that are easy enough to make up - but they are not science" --- as compared to real life - and the Bible doctrine on origins.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Real science - as in observations in nature over "stories easy enough to tell but they are not science because there is no way of putting them to the test" -- Collin Patterson

Real science - real observations in nature instead of
So, if the "real observations" people (scientists) make of nature indicate that the earth is about 4.5 billions years old, then you're ok with that, as far as "real science goes"?

the doctrine on origins found in blind faith evolutionism -- claiming that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time - given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough length of time filled with just-so stories about improbable events - stories that are easy enough to make up - but they are not science" --- as compared to real life - and the Bible doctrine on origins.
I never said that I personally believed that everything simply changed through time -- all by itself. Of course, I believe God had "something to do with it," I just don't think that it all happened in 7 literal days, even though the Bible states that it is (we think) 7 days.
 
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