Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Seth Rhinehart]

Because even Christians like things like public health, vaccines and animal husbandry?

Do those things grant eternal life?

 

[mmksparbud]

No, I do not forget about the land, I bring that up a lot for those who believe Jesus reigns on earth--- as it is also pointing to 6000 years, and then 1000 years of the whole planet resting.
There is still no way that God created the vegetation and then went eons before creating the sun. I have heard that Jesus is the light before, which has merit, but I do not accept Enoch. The rotation of the earth is the 24 hr, not the sun. It actually takes 23 hrs and 54 min. so we have leap years. The Egyptians made some things around it, and the Greeks, bottom line, it is still the rotation of the earth.

 

[prodromos]

I am, however, waiting for that vigorous theological position (from the evangelical/fundamentalist) that drives a conclusion that evolution is incompatible with Christianity.

The issue I have with evolution from a biblical viewpoint is that for evolution to be a reality, there has to be death, a lot of death. In order for the 'fittest' to survive and produce offspring assumes that the less fit are not surviving and not reproducing.
According to God's revelation to mankind, death did not enter into the picture until the fall of Adam, at which point all the animals after their kinds had already been created.
Since Christ's victory over death is one of the central tenets of the Gospel, I cannot see how that squares with evolution.

 

[Armoured]

Do those things grant eternal life?

No. Neither does having a computer and three meals a day, but here we are.

 

[Geralt]

the issue is inerrancy.
and therfore those who believe parts of scripture are fantasy simply displays unbelief in this case.

If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

What about the Biblical scholars that generally dismiss Genesis as a "historical" representation... but rather "myth" (however you want to define that)?

I understand I'm courting "controversy" here, but I'd genuinely like to hear this, supposedly, untouchable theological answer.

 

[JoeP222w]

If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

I have never seen any observable, testable, repeatable evidence for Evolution (where a creature changes kind), despite the many false claims of "mountains of evidence".

 

[BrianJK]

The issue I have with evolution from a biblical viewpoint is that for evolution to be a reality, there has to be death, a lot of death. In order for the 'fittest' to survive and produce offspring assumes that the less fit are not surviving and not reproducing.
According to God's revelation to mankind, death did not enter into the picture until the fall of Adam, at which point all the animals after their kinds had already been created.
Since Christ's victory over death is one of the central tenets of the Gospel, I cannot see how that squares with evolution.

My personal take on this is sort of the CS Lewis idea. I can't remember exactly where he wrote about evolution, but I'm pretty sure it was him.

I like the idea that God set evolution in its course and guided it to the point where He created the first man, and when He blew His life into that man, only then was he really man and only then did humanity begin.

Jesus said He was the door, yet I've never seen a nativity scene with Mary and Joseph and a baby Door in a manger. I accept that as symbolic, so I can accept other things as symbolic, using literary genre as part of my exegesis.

I don't expect anyone to agree or post in hopes that anyone does. I just wanted to share where I was coming from. Sorry I'm not as eloquent a writer as Lewis!

 

[Armoured]

the issue is inerrancy.
and therfore those who believe parts of scripture are fantasy simply displays unbelief in this case.

If you insist on viewing the Bible as a dichotomous "it's either 100% true, or there is no God", well, congratulations, you must be an atheist.

 

[hedrick]

Thank you for the clarification. I hope I did not paint a picture that every theologian and minister of the PCUSA holds an extreme position. There are many nuances, such as you described. However, the rejection of biblical inerrancy does open a can of theological worms, for better or worse.

Sure. Maintaining balance is difficult, but every major area of Christian theology requires it, whether the Incarnation, the Trinity, free will and election, or whatever. In every area the orthodox position is complex, with extremes on both sides of it that are a lot simpler. I see inerrancy and the extreme liberal position as just another example of these kinds of simple but wrong extremes.

 

[Luke17:37]

It's both a fact and a scientific theory.

It's common for Christians to call it "just a theory." It demonstrates a failure to understand what is being communicated.

Secondly, presenting a false dichotomy isn't a theological explanation.

This is what I posted to someone else last week (another Christian who said evolution was a fact):

I encourage you to read it prayerfully and study the Scriptures I cite.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...hat-do-you-think.7967346/page-3#post-70195359

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure. Maintaining balance is difficult, but every major area of Christian theology requires it, whether the Incarnation, the Trinity, free will and election, or whatever. In every area the orthodox position is complex, with extremes on both sides of it that are a lot simpler. I see inerrancy and the extreme liberal position as just another example of these kinds of simple but wrong extremes.

Thank you for your good reply. I get quite nervous with either end of the spectrum of every theological question.

 

[Luke17:37]

The virgin birth carries a
strong doctrinal necessity, where as the idea that every line of scripture was
written by God, is clearly not true.

No; every line--and every letter--of Scripture was written by God. That is the truth. (2 Timothy 3:16)

See also Matthew 4:4; Matthew 5:18; Matthew 22:23-33; Matthew 19:3-6; John 1:1-3, John 1:14; Hebrews 4:12-13, Revelation 19:13.

 

[Seth Rhinehart]

No. Neither does having a computer and three meals a day, but here we are.

Are you trying to convince me to be more worldly? If so, I hope you take pause and consider what might be tempting you to do that.

 

[Indent]

the issue is inerrancy.
and therfore those who believe parts of scripture are fantasy simply displays unbelief in this case.

I suspect inerrancy is the issue

It's not a matter of "fantasy" and "unbelief" on the topic of Genesis. I don’t view Genesis as fantasy, and nor did I make such a claim.

That’s an addendum added to give yourself something to rebuke.

The so-called "plain reading" that accompanies inerrancy is not just an intellectually bankrupt idea (to read is to engage in a process of interpretation, abstraction, representation), it's unfaithful to the text. The pronouncements on the nature of reality by fundamentalist Christians, "because the bible tells me so", are unjustified and unmerited.

I have seen no compelling theological position, or argument for that matter, that suggests to me Christianity is incompatible with evolution.

If a Christian isn’t prepared to adjust their approach to Scriptures by the clear indicators of genre (i.e. myth, which is completely legitimate form of communication), with little or no concern for the historical context which these texts are anchored in, then you just aren’t faithful to the bible.

The bible is written for us, but it wasn’t written to us. The author(s) of Genesis were ancient Israelites, and the direct audiences were ancient Israelites. The cultural limitations are inescapable (and it’s clear that they exist throughout the bible). There are parts of the bible that just aren’t easily analyzed, accessed and understood.

I’m concerned that Christians are all too prepared to compromise on honesty and integrity—in the name of “faith.” I’m concerned God has been confined to a space, and that the Christian enterprise is being dragged through the mud.

 

[ken777]

the issue is inerrancy.
and therfore those who believe parts of scripture are fantasy simply displays unbelief in this case.

When people cannot understand what the Bible is saying there is a tendency to deny the inerrancy of Scripture. Jesus referred to mysteries that not all would understand (Luke 8:10). I do not claim to understand it all either but I believe it is all God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16). Sometimes symbolism & figurative speech is used (though I deny that it is myth) which means it requires seeing the Bible as a cohesive whole from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the earth was created in 6 literal days, but the sun wasnt created until the 4th day, what were those first 3 days all about?

A sun isn't required for a day to pass.

What is required is a planet rotating once on its axis.

Where did the light and darkness and evening and morning come from?

Light was created on Day One of the Creation Week.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Indent]

When people cannot understand what the Bible is saying there is a tendency to deny the inerrancy of Scripture. Jesus referred to mysteries that not all would understand (Luke 8:10). I do not claim to understand it all either but I believe it is all God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16). Sometimes symbolism & figurative speech is used (though I deny that it is myth) which means it requires seeing the Bible as a cohesive whole from Genesis to Revelation.

There's a tendency for Christians to fail to recognize the behavior and dynamics of the bible.

Biblical inerrancy is a social construct of certain Christian brands, and a gatekeeper doctrine. There IS indeed a cohesive and coherent story being told from Genesis to Revelation, but that doesn't mean the Genesis creation accounts are to be taken at face value.

 

[ken777]

There's a tendency for Christians to fail to recognize the behavior and dynamics of the bible.
Biblical inerrancy is a social construct of certain Christian brands, and a gatekeeper doctrine. There IS indeed a cohesive and coherent story being told from Genesis to Revelation, but that doesn't mean the Genesis creation accounts are to be taken at face value.

The principal dynamic of the Bible is that it is God's revelation of Himself to humankind which means it is without error. The "Christian brand" I prefer is that of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Indent]

The principal dynamic of the Bible is that it is God's revelation of Himself to humankind which means it is without error. The "Christian brand" I prefer is that of Jesus and the apostles.

That depends on what it means to be "without error." There are a number of lines in the Bible that make sense from an ancient worldview, but are essentially wrong.

If the bible is "without error", how do you explain the mathematical imprecision in 1 Kings? That the mustard seed is claimed to be the smallest of all seeds on earth? What does it mean to be "without error" when the ancient Israelites believed there was a solid dome around the earth, that there were "storehouses of snow" in the skies, that the sun revolved around the earth, or that the earth was flat?

The theology of a first century Jew doesn't depend on their "science." The Bible contains theological statements, not scientific statements.

 

[ken777]

To believe in God is to believe in the supernatural. Jesus confirmed the supernatural nature of the OT (Luke 24:44). Peter confirmed the truth of the NT If we cannot reconcile everything that is written in Scripture it means we are having difficulty understanding & accepting the supernatural.