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Christianity and intentional Community.

Carl Emerson

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I meant separate from the wider community, not from the church. The way your OP takes issue with things like school and childcare certainly flavoured your post in that "retreat from the world" kind of way.
I rather see it as advancing towards something better...

Is "intentional community" the only way we may validly respond to the messages of those chapters of Scripture? I'm not convinced of that.
Nor am I - but I don't see folks rushing to the church because they see unity there so there is room for other models...

Why would we assume that intentional community would model unity any better than our existing group dynamics?
Maybe because our existing group dynamics lean on consensus rather than unity.

Maybe because I have seen it first hand and was impressed.

Carl, I responded to your question, and then you asked me to elaborate, so I answered your questions. I didn't set out to shoot down your ideas, but to explain things I would be looking to avoid in any Christian group I was considering committing to.

I guess I have studied community for about 50 years and seen it work well...

I have also seen it being a disaster so my naivety levels are low.

Not everyone is called to it but in time it will likely become a serious option.
 
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FireDragon76

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And at the same time, women's lives have improved, social and legal miseries for various minorities have been ameliorated, poverty is decreasing globally (while still being a massive problem), and so on. I'm not saying we have no problems, but I'm not buying into a narrative of social decay.

So I would be very averse to any intentional community sold as an answer to a social decay I just don't believe in.

Society, at least in developed nations, is a great deal less brutal than even 200 years ago or so.

Before the First World War, the most brutal war the world had ever seen was the 30 years war, when warfare between Protestants and Catholics lasted for decades. People took religion very seriously, and it was tied in closely with worldly politics (because it was assumed God would punish nations for choosing the wrong religion). Between 4-8 million people died, a truly astounding number considering the total population of the world was only 500 million or so. One of my favorite Lutheran hymns, If You But Trust in God to Guide You, was written in that period, but it reflects the dark tone of the times: the author, Georg Neumark, was robbed twice by highwaymen and lost all his worldly goods.

In comparison, when was the last time you heard of Catholics and Protestants killing each other for religious reasons? When was the last burning of a heretic at the stake? In North America, that ended in the 1630's in New England, around the same time as the 30 Years War.

Hmm. I guess I'm not convinced that a "better lifestyle" (better for whom, and by what measure? I'm viewing separatist ideals with a fairly heavy dose of skepticism, here) is either going to be the outcome, or even what we should be seeking. And nor am I convinced that this is the best or only way to support struggling believers, or show love in action.

A community with a sense of shared purpose has some appeal; you'll note that when I said I might be interested in some form of community, I listed prayer, discipline and commitment to mission as shared commitments that might be worthwhile. But I'm not sold on this as a way of life just for the sake of being different, or a light in the world. We can - and should, and do - do that without having to form this kind of community to do it.


It's possible for Christian communities to get so wrapped up in their own sense of purity, and so inwardly focused and self-referential that they don't become particularly effective "cities on a hill".

Here in the US there were alot of Anabaptist and Quaker groups that believed a radical "Two Kingdoms" separation of the Church and society, some going so far as to live in completely isolated communities, but if you ask the average American what they think of the Amish or Mennonites, for instance, they probably associate them with rejection of technology, and most people probably think of "Quaker" as an oatmeal brand.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The model for community is a key factor for success.

Consider Francis Schaeffer's L'abri in Switzerland which was successful for decades.

Consider Father Rick Thomas and the very successful community farm in El Paso.

Various rehab. communities like Orama on Gt. Barrier Is. were successful.

It is easy to bag the concept by quoting the infamous.
 
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Carl Emerson

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OK moving on - what model might work in the modern context ?

Keeping it simple it can start by folks choosing to live within walking distance of each other.

They could look at starting a food co-op and maybe set up a shared library.

They could meet say every two weeks - pray and discuss strategy.

They could have a voluntary purse to support members in crisis and fund outreach in the area.

Members need not attend the same church but share the common vision for mutual support, outreach and fellowship.

Christianity in action -

Thoughts ???
 
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Paidiske

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I remember reading someone - I think it might have been Marva Dawn, in her book Truly the Community: Romans 12 and How To Be the Church, but it was a while ago and I'm not sure, (although that book was, from memory, well worth a read if you're pondering these questions) - talking about doing things like setting up a shared pool of the sorts of things that are expensive and not used by every household all the time, like lawnmowers and such.

I think the common vision is really the key thing, though. What are you coming together to achieve? Because if that's not clear, or compelling, why would anyone want to be part of it?
 
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Pioneer3mm

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..maybe set up a shared library.
Good idea.
---
I remember..the Christian book store (near university).
- Downstairs..book store.
- Upstairs..library with kitchen (for reading/study & fellowship)
 
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Carl Emerson

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As you can imagine this is just the beginning...

The vision scripturally is to fulfil John 17:23

23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me.

Returning to first love as recorded in Acts.

Yes... there are many opportunities to pool resources and even create enterprise.

The economic systems in place thrive on isolation in society - collective effort is a very powerful response.

As such a community matures members could even pool what they pay for car insurance and pay out members who have a claim - this was done successfully in our city although the community was 400 strong. They simply put the premium money into a common account and were ahead quite soon - partly because members drove more carefully being mindful of the personal money at stake.

Sharing the love of Jesus is a basic foundation for what ever activity is agreed on and the activity then becomes a fundamental aspect of evangelism. The world is waiting to see this according to John 17 and His Glory is manifest in the process.
 
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David's Harp

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Thank you Carl. An inspiring thread. Initially, for me, it was reading as something that was an alternative reality from what's going on in society, but I see that some alternatives could work for groups of Christians (or individuals) within their existing communities. The thing I feel that is important regardless of whether a group chooses to retreat from society of not, is that we should still be engaging with people and sharing the love of Christ and the truth of the Gospel.

One thought that came up was the idea of a community garden - predominantly for growing food.
There's a few different ways this could look:
One could be a collective buyout of a plot of land. Christians coming together with a shared vision of their intention for production on the land, whatever that may be. I would like to think of a community of Christians growing produce that would be donated to those in need. Or perhaps a drop in cafe nearby with food made from the produce.

Another way could be working with local authorities to develop land, in conjunction with providing benefits for the community in terms of learning and health. There could be partnerships with schools, voluntary organisations and health services.

Or it could even be individual 'cells' i.e. people's back yards, as part of a bigger network. Truly integrated into the community, it would require more promotion, networking and advertisement, although perhaps there would be opportunities to develop an app for it! :rolleyes:

Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't have any expertise in any of this, but just the desire to help those in need, and a willingness to be part of the community, rather than apart from it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Who is promoting 'separatist ideals' ?? From the get go I emphasised complimenting the church.

Does the first five chapters of Acts have no message or are we deaf to it...

How else will the world see the unity among believers Jesus mentions in John 17

If the issue doesn't gel with you then fine... but I don't see it being respectful to make it into something it never was, and shooting it down.

If it is not your thing - fine.

How about hearing from others.
As far as community living is concerned, Gloriavale, on the West Coast of the South Island of NZ is a sad example of a commune that has divorced itself from society and will eventually develop serious problems through inbreeding. There is a case at present in the Employment Court where the plaintiffs are saying that they and others are treated like slaves from birth. This seems to be the fate of women in that commune. Also, there have been complaints of sexual abuse - the late "messiah" was imprisoned for it. I think that this shows how a Christian community should be run. As far as the world is concerned it is the same as Outer Siberia - everyone knows where it is, but no one wants to go there - unless they want to adopt the oneness, anti-trinitarian theology they have and are social misfits.
 
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Carl Emerson

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As far as community living is concerned, Gloriavale, on the West Coast of the South Island of NZ is a sad example of a commune that has divorced itself from society and will eventually develop serious problems through inbreeding. There is a case at present in the Employment Court where the plaintiffs are saying that they and others are treated like slaves from birth. This seems to be the fate of women in that commune. Also, there have been complaints of sexual abuse - the late "messiah" was imprisoned for it. I think that this shows how a Christian community should be run. As far as the world is concerned it is the same as Outer Siberia - everyone knows where it is, but no one wants to go there - unless they want to adopt the oneness, anti-trinitarian theology they have and are social misfits.

Watchman - this is one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen you make.

For the record I had a hand in folks escaping from the Cooperites years back and am well aware of such travesties.

This is not what the thread is about.

What we are discussing is the biblical basis and ideas for intentional Christian community that compliments the Church.

Constructive input most welcome.

We are not talking about wacky communes.

Did you read the thread especially post #23?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Watchman - this is one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen you make.

For the record I had a hand in folks escaping from the Cooperites years back and am well aware of such travesties.

This is not what the thread is about.

What we are discussing is the biblical basis and ideas for intentional Christian community that compliments the Church.

Constructive input most welcome.

We are not talking about wacky communes.

Did you read the thread especially post #23?
All I did was to show what a "Christian" community shouldn't be like. Good to have a contrast sometimes.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Thank you Carl. An inspiring thread. Initially, for me, it was reading as something that was an alternative reality from what's going on in society, but I see that some alternatives could work for groups of Christians (or individuals) within their existing communities. The thing I feel that is important regardless of whether a group chooses to retreat from society of not, is that we should still be engaging with people and sharing the love of Christ and the truth of the Gospel.

One thought that came up was the idea of a community garden - predominantly for growing food.
There's a few different ways this could look:
One could be a collective buyout of a plot of land. Christians coming together with a shared vision of their intention for production on the land, whatever that may be. I would like to think of a community of Christians growing produce that would be donated to those in need. Or perhaps a drop in cafe nearby with food made from the produce.

Another way could be working with local authorities to develop land, in conjunction with providing benefits for the community in terms of learning and health. There could be partnerships with schools, voluntary organisations and health services.

Or it could even be individual 'cells' i.e. people's back yards, as part of a bigger network. Truly integrated into the community, it would require more promotion, networking and advertisement, although perhaps there would be opportunities to develop an app for it! :rolleyes:

Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't have any expertise in any of this, but just the desire to help those in need, and a willingness to be part of the community, rather than apart from it.

You know I often think that at judgement we might be asked what we did to be Jesus to our neighbours.

We wont be able to say "it wasn't in the church programme"

The lost mission field is where you live.

Moving out in obedience starts from where you are - you don't go to it.

...and yes a garden makes great sense - I have often thought of delivering pre-planted modular gardens to the elderly that get collected and re-used.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Senior moment ???
Good grief! Yes! My typing fingers missed out the "not'.
It should read: "This shows how a Christian community should NOT be run!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Good grief! Yes! My typing fingers missed out the "not'.
It should read: "This shows how a Christian community should NOT be run!

Phew....

Glad that's resolved !!! :)
 
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Paidiske

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You could try moving it to Deeper Fellowship, maybe. But my hunch is that many of us feel that our plates are over-full as they are, without looking for more to take on, especially in this season!
 
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bèlla

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If the Lord laid it on your heart I'd seek others like myself and start there. You may discover a wealth of ideas from kindred spirts contemplating the same. The notion sounds good in the beginning when everyone's eager and hopeful. But you need solid people beside you with the requisite gifts and skills to make it work.

Entertaining differences of opinion is important. They demonstrate weak points and other things you hadn't considered. If everyone must agree and feel the same it will raise concerns. Not that you're demanding that but they're valid considerations in light of the things we've seen elsewhere.

Meeting people where they are is a must and it requires you to reconcile the want with truth. The majority aren't in an Acts mindset or conversant in what it entails. You can't expect them to get there overnight because they read it in the word. You have significantly more tenure in that arena and should adjust your pace.

Fear is the elephant and I'd meet it head on. Why are people reluctant to live that way? Hear them out. Passion's important but the nuts and bolts can't be overlooked. A slower start may be ideal to get them acclimated. How will you afford it and support yourself? The land, housing, food, security and so on.

Many rhapsodize the idea of self-sufficiency and do little to bring it to fruition. You'll need people conversant in farming, preserving, bread making and so on. Feeding people everyday for a year doesn't come cheap. Slackers are probable. I'd require a work in to let them see what they getting into.

What about health? Is there a resident doctor, nurse or herbalist? And what about leadership? A designated person, board or group consensus? Once you address the components you need you'll know what to pray for. So draft it out and dream big. You never know who the Lord will send.

~bella
 
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Carl Emerson

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You could try moving it to Deeper Fellowship, maybe. But my hunch is that many of us feel that our plates are over-full as they are, without looking for more to take on, especially in this season!

Good suggestion thanks - I have asked for a move...
 
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