Christianity and intentional Community.

[Carl Emerson]

If the Lord laid it on your heart I'd seek others like myself and start there. You may discover a wealth of ideas from kindred spirts contemplating the same. The notion sounds good in the beginning when everyone's eager and hopeful. But you need solid people beside you with the requisite gifts and skills to make it work.

Entertaining differences of opinion is important. They demonstrate weak points and other things you hadn't considered. If everyone must agree and feel the same it will raise concerns. Not that you're demanding that but they're valid considerations in light of the things we've seen elsewhere.

Meeting people where they are is a must and it requires you to reconcile the want with truth. The majority aren't in an Acts mindset or conversant in what it entails. You can't expect them to get there overnight because they read it in the word. You have significantly more tenure in that arena and should adjust your pace.

Fear is the elephant and I'd meet it head on. Why are people reluctant to live that way? Hear them out. Passion's important but the nuts and bolts can't be overlooked. A slower start may be ideal to get them acclimated. How will you afford it and support yourself? The land, housing, food, security and so on.

Many rhapsodize the idea of self-sufficiency and do little to bring it to fruition. You'll need people conversant in farming, preserving, bread making and so on. Feeding people everyday for a year doesn't come cheap. Slackers are probable. I'd require a work in to let them see what they getting into.

What about health? Is there a resident doctor, nurse or herbalist? And what about leadership? A designated person, board or group consensus? Once you address the components you need you'll know what to pray for. So draft it out and dream big. You never know who the Lord will send.

~bella

Well I have at least a couple of decades to go so who knows - a matter for prayer.


Yes I started off the thread suggesting that beginnings are within reach of all...

Many of the issues you raise are familiar, my wife has a degree in health science and specialises in post natal care.

We have experienced quite traumatic failure in past experiences with community but if a work is born of God then there is no limit to what He might do...

Thank you for your encouraging and thoughtful response.

 

[bèlla]

Well I have at least a couple of decades to go so who knows - a matter for prayer.


Yes I started off the thread suggesting that beginnings are within reach of all...

Many of the issues you raise are familiar, my wife has a degree in health science and specialises in post natal care.

We have experienced quite traumatic failure in past experiences with community but if a work is born of God then there is no limit to what He might do...

Thank you for your encouraging and thoughtful response.

You're welcome Carl.

Although I'm not doing the same there are similar challenges with homesteading. I've had to make some hard decisions along those lines for the sake of the greater goal. I'm the lone one who ventured down that path. I didn't learn everything overnight as you're aware. It was a steady process of intentional steps every year that added up. The idea of gathering everyone sounds great in theory but everything is on my shoulders.

The prospect stressed me out. After awhile I realized it was my idea. The Lord never told me to put everyone in one place. He knows it's too much with my responsibilities and several years of school. So I left it in His hands and trust He has something else in mind for them and peace returned.

On the upside there's a Mennonite community, Beachy Amish, a culture devoted to food sustainably raised, and related opportunities for greater enhancement in self-sufficiency. It's custom fit and I'm certain your enterprise will be the same. The fragments have an uncanny way of coming together unexpectedly.

I used to have similar concerns with time but I let them go and asked Him to redeem it. The clock won't expire until I've completed my task nor will yours. Thank Him for the vision and fervency for its attainment. It's a glorious thing to work for Him.

God bless and keep you.

~bella

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved

From Christian Philosophy & Ethics

To Deeper Fellowship

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Angeldove97]

You are welcome to your opinion - I find the statistics quite disturbing along with unheard of crime in our country - ram raids, mass shooting, and massive increase in drug use.

Something to pause on and reflect - how have Christians made society worse? Let's be honest that there are a number of examples where the Church (the Body of Christ) has abused human beings mentally, physically, and emotionally, killed non-believers in mass raids, denied health care and other rights to women, attempted to kill off other cultures and religions, care more about gun laws than children (guns are the #1 killer of children in the United States), and there are plenty of pastors/priests/church leaders living in mansions when Christ didn't even have a home to call His own. No wonder the majority of the world does not trust us and at this point, I don't trust the majority of my Brothers and Sisters that call themselves politicians.

When we are in Christ, we are not of this world, but we are still called to care for non-believers. We are to love one another, pray for one another, forgive one another, accept one another, serve one another, be hospitable to one another, and be at peace with one another. If we want a better society, that's what we need to do - and each of those come from Bible verses. Education, day care, health care rights, other religions are NOT the issue. The issue is how we can't seem to treat one another as human beings, like Christ calls us to do.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Something to pause on and reflect - how have Christians made society worse? Let's be honest that there are a number of examples where the Church (the Body of Christ) has abused human beings mentally, physically, and emotionally, killed non-believers in mass raids, denied health care and other rights to women, attempted to kill off other cultures and religions, care more about gun laws than children (guns are the #1 killer of children in the United States), and there are plenty of pastors/priests/church leaders living in mansions when Christ didn't even have a home to call His own. No wonder the majority of the world does not trust us and at this point, I don't trust the majority of my Brothers and Sisters that call themselves politicians.

When we are in Christ, we are not of this world, but we are still called to care for non-believers. We are to love one another, pray for one another, forgive one another, accept one another, serve one another, be hospitable to one another, and be at peace with one another. If we want a better society, that's what we need to do - and each of those come from Bible verses. Education, day care, health care rights, other religions are NOT the issue. The issue is how we can't seem to treat one another as human beings, like Christ calls us to do.

Your perspective is pretty fundamental and I agree...

I am supporting the notion that we can do as you say in joint effort.

As to my references to social change - this will be a bi product of the return to first love. Viva Christo Rey was a good example of this.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So do we need to review how and why we gather ???

Does the model we often follow that restricts gatherings to be only for teaching and worship - need review.

Some traditions are so tight in form, that even if your mother died an hour ago there would be no place to share your grief in the service - in that sense family is a lost function in gatherings.

Yet family is a biblical entity (Eph 2:19)

Another matter that complicates the hope to find fellowship, is the notion that activity outside of the formal service is not sacred. Some services even have a final organ piece designed to make that demarkation or a final blessing is given. Folks are sent out from the Sacred to the secular as if Christ is somehow less present when the service ends and you are on your own.

Meetings are set up physically in a lecture format which frustrates interaction and mutual sharing.

Even the Eucharist is separated from the communal meal so the fellowship around a meal is removed. (He took the cup after eating would seem to indicate it was taken in the context of a communal meal)

It seems the justification for this format is from the Old Covenant and mimics the temple service. Yet the meeting of the Body of Christ should be quite different if we let New Testament theology be an influencing factor.

I note that Harold Turner had much to say about this.

 

[Paidiske]

My observation is that lots of communities are still recovering from Covid. My own parish will only return to shared refreshments after the main service next week; it's taken them that long to be ready. But that is the time when a lot of the interpersonal relationships are nurtured.

I would argue that seeing the end of the liturgy as the end of the sacred is a dreadful misunderstanding which needs correction. We are sent out to be bearers of God's love and joy to the world; that is the continuation of our worship, not the ending of it.

That said, there's a very great deal that we can do, without abandoning forms of worship which have fruitfully proclaimed the good news and nurtured faith for centuries. Each community will have decisions to make about what will be fitting in their own context. But the above kind of comments about things which people find incredibly life-giving will probably not be helpful in building community!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would argue that seeing the end of the liturgy as the end of the sacred is a dreadful misunderstanding which needs correction. We are sent out to be bearers of God's love and joy to the world; that is the continuation of our worship, not the ending of it.

I agree, but being sent out individually with little sense of connection gives rise to this sort of misunderstanding.

My observation is that lots of communities are still recovering from Covid. My own parish will only return to shared refreshments after the main service next week; it's taken them that long to be ready. But that is the time when a lot of the interpersonal relationships are nurtured.

Yes - we have had the same issue here...

That said, there's a very great deal that we can do, without abandoning forms of worship which have fruitfully proclaimed the good news and nurtured faith for centuries. Each community will have decisions to make about what will be fitting in their own context. But the above kind of comments about things which people find incredibly life-giving will probably not be helpful in building community!

Not sure what you mean...

Are present traditions so sacrosanct we shouldn't discuss them ?

 

[Paidiske]

I agree, but being sent out individually with little sense of connection gives rise to this sort of misunderstanding.

I think a big part of the problem is that people think "church" = "one hour on Sunday." Rather than a community of shared purpose through the week which happens to gather en masse on Sunday. Ironically, the more old-fashioned traditional model of services every day can be one way to combat that.

Not sure what you mean...

Are present traditions so sacrosanct we shouldn't discuss them ?

Bluntly, your post came across as completely rubbishing what most people experience in worship, wanting to get rid of all of it in favour of a completely different model. I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and encourage taking stock of what is good, and what works, in what people currently have, and preserving that. I have learned the hard way in ministry that sometimes even things one person thinks don't matter, or are insignificant, can be an important part of how someone relates to God. (For example, as an introvert, I would find value in the sort of model I think you're suggesting; but only as an occasional extra, not as my main worship diet).

You started this thread claiming you wanted to discuss models of community which complement what we have; wanting to completely reconstruct worship experiences seems like a completely different conversation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Bluntly, your post came across as completely rubbishing what most people experience in worship, wanting to get rid of all of it in favour of a completely different model.

Not stated or meant - However it is healthy to discuss our traditions given that the Church's track record in the modern world is rather wanting.

Worship and the Teaching of the Word are foundational to the faith but that should not define the extent of body life as it often does.

 

[Carl Emerson]

wanting to completely reconstruct worship experiences seems like a completely different conversation.

Never stated or implied.

 

[Paidiske]

given that the Church's track record in the modern world is rather wanting.

I'll agree with you here, but I suspect you're rather misdiagnosing the problem. Top of the list of things we'd have to look at, from my point of view, would be the clergy sexual abuse scandals and the culture which enabled them. In particular, theologies of power and control are in dire need of critical review.

Worship and the Teaching of the Word are foundational to the faith but that should not define the extent of body life as it often does.

No, it shouldn't. But then we need to talk about the other six days a week, about mission, about disciplined prayer, and so on. We need to look beyond the Sunday morning service, rather than blame it for not being everything else.

And come on, Carl, if you re-read your post #46, your post is deeply critical, and the implication that what happens should change drastically - in the direction of informal, unscripted sharing; a shared meal; a more interactive format facilitated by different arrangement of furniture - is clear. It seems disingenuous to deny that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, it shouldn't. But then we need to talk about the other six days a week, about mission, about disciplined prayer, and so on. We need to look beyond the Sunday morning service, rather than blame it for not being everything else.

Yes I agree - but the present services as you agree tend to define the scope of Christian commitment.

And come on, Carl, if you re-read your post #46, your post is deeply critical, and the implication that what happens should change drastically - in the direction of informal, unscripted sharing; a shared meal; a more interactive format facilitated by different arrangement of furniture - is clear. It seems disingenuous to deny that.

Yes I am deeply concerned - because either the church needs to become more of a communal gathering or intensional community will fill that gap.

Either way 'first love' needs to find expression.

Of course when ever this issue is raised it is like touching the sacred stone so I am not at all surprised by your reaction.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes I agree - but the present services as you agree tend to define the scope of Christian commitment.

And why is that? When I look at people in my own context, they're tired. They're busy. They're over-committed. They're struggling with what's already on their plates, and not looking to take on more.

Perhaps that's where we need to start?

Either way 'first love' needs to find expression.

I am always left at a loss by your suggestion that it's currently absent.

Of course when ever this issue is raised it is like touching the sacred stone so I am not at all surprised by your reaction.

If you're open to some feedback, it's perhaps because each time you raise this sort of issue, in your many threads, whether you intend to or not, it comes across as, "The existing church is ineffective, its ministers are rubbish, its congregation members are lukewarm and its activities are without adequate meaning." Then when people respond to that, you deny that was your meaning. But if that's the message that consistently comes across, maybe a look at your style of communicating might not hurt?

For what it's worth, I suspect that you're yearning for a particular sort of experience that many Christians simply don't want or need. That doesn't mean either you are they are wrong, but it might mean that you need to make peace with the fact that not everyone is where you are.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you're open to some feedback, it's perhaps because each time you raise this sort of issue, in your many threads, whether you intend to or not, it comes across as, "The existing church is ineffective, its ministers are rubbish, its congregation members are lukewarm and its activities are without adequate meaning." Then when people respond to that, you deny that was your meaning. But if that's the message that consistently comes across, maybe a look at your style of communicating might not hurt?

It comes across as...

According to who ???

The truth is I am committed to a high church programme and greatly respect the leaders.

However, I am taking a step back and calling a spade a spade.

This may cause some readers to become uncomfortable.

This is unavoidable.

 

[Paidiske]

However, I am taking a step back and calling a spade a spade.

What precisely is the spade, then? Because if the thrust of your posts isn't as I summarised, it's truly lost on me.

I'm not uncomfortable with a robust discussion of church life; the good, the bad, and the ugly. But where in your posts is the acknowledgement of the good in the church as it is now?

 

[Carl Emerson]

For what it's worth, I suspect that you're yearning for a particular sort of experience that many Christians simply don't want or need. That doesn't mean either you are they are wrong, but it might mean that you need to make peace with the fact that not everyone is where you are.

He who has an ear...

Yes not all are called to community as far as I can make out, but the lack of it is a short coming of the church.

If the unity of the saints is appointed to be a central aspect of evangelism visible to the world, which it is, then the absence of same is a serious issue.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes not all are called to community as far as I can make out, but the lack of it is a short coming of the church.

If the unity of the saints is appointed to be a central aspect of evangelism visible to the world, which it is, then the absence of same is a serious issue.

Community - and unity - mean different things to different people. This is kind of what I mean about not everyone being in the same place; for example, speaking personally, right now I have just about all the "community" I can handle, and if anything, I want less, not more. I'm an introvert on the edge of burnout, and the last thing I need is more intensified relationships.

But I don't think either "community" or "unity" has to mean that kind of intense relating. Community can be expressed in an endless variety of ways. Unity doesn't mean "doing everything together." I'd suggest it might work better to have a framework of shared goals, and then let different people, with different personalities, needs, stages of life, etc, find their place in supporting those shared goals, with flexibility about what that looks like.

 

[Angeldove97]

I am supporting the notion that we can do as you say in joint effort.

Joint effort with those who are anybody a part of the Church, Jewish, Muslim, no faith at all? Where we have to find connection and similarity (the act to love as the greatest commandment) vs nitpicking over details?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Joint effort with those who are anybody a part of the Church, Jewish, Muslim, no faith at all? Where we have to find connection and similarity (the act to love as the greatest commandment) vs nitpicking over details?

It has been my experience that we have to be one in Spirit - that means members of the Body of Christ, truely born again and committed to Christ's Lordship.

Loving others and working with them are two different things.