Christianity and Capital Punishment

[marineimaging]

I am pro life in all matters but would more agree with the CC's prior view.

The only scripture which allows for the death penalty are in the OT for Jews but Jesus ends that with his words about casting the first stone.

What about CP in the OT was for Jews? After the flood Noah was given a universal code of conduct for all mankind which was not don away with by Jesus. I mean, the interaction between Noah and God was not about any Jews because there were no Jews there at that time.

 

[Yarddog]

What about CP in the OT was for Jews? After the flood Noah was given a universal code of conduct for all mankind which was not don away with by Jesus. I mean, the interaction between Noah and God was not about any Jews because there were no Jews there at that time.

After Noah? The only universal code would be faith. Those that live by faith in God are his children. Jesus didn't do away with the law because Jews are still under it but he showed that if you live by the law then you will be judged by that law and you are outside of salvation through faith.

Each person needs to examine themselves, as Jesus told the Pharisees. If you sin, then don't pass a death sentence for sin or you will face judgment.

 

[David_AB]

So like most of the so called we are killing innocent people it's just urban legend.

Timothy Evans.
A film was made about it called 10 Rillington Place.
Very sad and very tragic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans

 

[Philip_B]

The Thirty Nine Articles said: "The Laws of the Realm may punish Christian men with death, for heinous and grievous offences".

Lambeth 1988, Resolution 33" "Urges the Church to speak out against: ... all governments who practice capital punishment, and encourages them to find alternative ways of sentencing offenders so that the divine dignity of every human being is respected and yet justice is pursued";

There are at least (and in reality there were a lot more) twenty four people we could name executed in the Henry VIII period who were clearly executed on grounds and evidence which would not stand up to any standard of justice we would imagine today.

For example, of the 16th of January 1542 an act was passed that made it a treasonable offence for an unchaste woman to marry the King without revealing it. On that day Katherine Howard (his fifth wife) was then arrested and executed on the 13th of February 1542.

One of the great problems with capital punishment is that by it the state does that which cannot be undone, and indeed in the case of a mistake there is little in the way of meaningful redress for the person who has been executed.

We have enough history, and we have enough wisdom, to know that this is not a good thing. Even with the best will in the world, even the fabulous legal system of the United States of America can (and I imagine does) make mistakes. If we need to resort to capital punishment as our only means of redress, I suspect that we pass judgment on ourselves as a society as much as we pass judgment on the offender.

Genesis 9:5-7
For your own lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning: from every animal I will require it and from human beings, each one for the blood of another, I will require a reckoning for human life. Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person’s blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind. And you, be fruitful and multiply, abound on the earth and multiply in it.’​

I get that I can argue for the death penalty from scripture. Yet I also find inspiration in scripture for a yet more excellent way.

John 1:4-5
in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.​

 

[steve78]

So like most of the so called we are killing innocent people it's just urban legend.

Its not.

The state does not always get it right, so therefore innocent people do get executed just like innocent people also get sent to prison. Difference is that the death penalty is pretty final where innocent people in prison can be released if it appears a mistake has been made.

 

[discipler7]

GENESIS.4:8-12 = 8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

All of us are our brother's/sister's keepers. We, as followers of God/Jesus, should give justice and sympathy to the victims of murderers and other criminals/evildoers by applying God's law of ni4ni, instead of sympathizing with the suffering murderers/criminals. Hence, Christians should endorse the death penalty, which also acts as a good deterrent against murder = minimizes the number of murder victims.

There are cases of wrongly or mistakenly convicted murderers sentenced to death but they are rare = about 4% in USA = 120 Americans were wrongly convicted of murder = only about 30 of the wrongly-convicted actually died from the death penalty. This should not be the basis for the abolishing of the death penalty.
....... Similarly, there are cases of innocent people mistakenly killed by car accidents = about 0.6% in USA = 33,000 American deaths in 2010. This should not be the basis for the abolishing of driving or cars.
....... Instead, more should be done to reduce wrongful conviction and car accidents.

Laws, no matter how punitive, does not eliminate crimes like murder to zero % because many murderers/criminals gamble with their lives on not being caught by the police or authorities.
....... OTOH, if there is no Law & Punishment, crimes and murders will shoot through the roof = society will be like Sodom and Gomorrah. Maryland has abolished the death penalty and Baltimore has a high murder rate. Michigan has abolished the death penalty and Detroit has a high murder rate.

 

[marineimaging]

After Noah? The only universal code would be faith. Those that live by faith in God are his children. Jesus didn't do away with the law because Jews are still under it but he showed that if you live by the law then you will be judged by that law and you are outside of salvation through faith.

Each person needs to examine themselves, as Jesus told the Pharisees. If you sin, then don't pass a death sentence for sin or you will face judgment.

The taking of a life for a life was given to Noah. Noah was not a Jew. It was a universal law, not a Jewish law. That is my point.

 

[Yarddog]

The taking of a life for a life was given to Noah. Noah was not a Jew. It was a universal law, not a Jewish law. That is my point.

Okay, then you believe that Peter's blood should have been shed after he shed the blood of Malchus in the the Garden? Or was Jesus changing what the past had taught? The story differs somewhat amongst the Gospels but we do see Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword for he who takes up the sword shall die by the sword.

 

[Hank77]

If he sincerely repents before his death he may be spared the fires of hell.

Well of coarse, everyone knows that. My point was that once they are DEAD they no longer have the opportunity to do that.

 

[Hank77]

There are multiple examples in the Bible that support capital punishment. I have not seen any that oppose it.

We live in a world with many corrupt people in positions of power. Law officials have been found to tamper with evidence, withhold evidence, and knowingly put innocent people in jail.

Given that, it makes sense to me that capital punishment should only be an option when there is overwhelming evidence that only absurd people would refute. Examples of such evidence would be very clear video footage and instances with large numbers of witnesses.

In short, any time we pretty much know for a fact that the person did it, it should be an option.

In one case there were nine witnesses that said the innocent man had done it. Later seven of them recanted. He was proven innocent. In another case a woman gave a description of the man who raped her. The police suggested someone else to her and she agreed that was that man. It was later proven that it wasn't him at all.

 

[Hank77]

So, ...
many innocent people are killed in aircraft accidents caused by pilot mistakes = abolish flying and ban aircrafts.? = no innocents will be "wrongly" killed by aircraft accidents.?

Many innocent people are killed in car accidents caused by driver mistakes = abolish driving and ban cars.? = no innocents will be "wrongly" killed by car accidents.?

"To err is human".

"Humans are not perfect".

Since when are accidental deaths the same a premeditated deaths?

 

[discipler7]

Okay, then you believe that Peter's blood should have been shed after he shed the blood of Malchus in the the Garden? Or was Jesus changing what the past had taught? The story differs somewhat amongst the Gospels but we do see Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword for he who takes up the sword shall die by the sword.

Fyi, Jesus/God has the authority to pardon/forgive repentant criminals/law-breakers and remove the curses/punishments of the Law of ni4ni, similar to the authority of President Trump to pardon certain convicted criminals = release them from jail.
....... Hence, Jesus Christ performed healings, exorcisms, raising of the dead, miracles, signs and wonders during His ministry on earth. These are non-normal events effected by God during exceptional times, eg to attest that Moses and Jesus were sent by God(HEB.2:4). IOW, in normal times, God just let the Law of ni4ni or national Laws runs its natural course = Crime and Punishment.

Malchus's severed ear was healed by Jesus Christ(LUKE.22:51) = the crime/sin of Peter was overlooked/forgiven/pardoned by Jesus/God = Peter's punishment withdrawn.

EXODUS.21:18-19 = 18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, 19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.

 

[Yarddog]

Fyi, Jesus/God has the authority to pardon/forgive repentant criminals/law-breakers and remove the curses/punishments of the Law of ni4ni, similar to the authority of President Trump to pardon certain convicted criminals = release them from jail.
....... Hence, Jesus Christ performed healings, exorcisms, raising of the dead, miracles, signs and wonders during His ministry on earth. These are non-normal events effected by God during exceptional times, eg to attest that Moses and Jesus were sent by God(HEB.2:4). IOW, in normal times, God just let the Law of ni4ni or national Laws runs its natural course = Crime and Punishment.

Malchus's severed ear was healed by Jesus Christ(LUKE.22:51) = the crime/sin of Peter was overlooked/forgiven/pardoned by Jesus/God = Peter's punishment withdrawn.

EXODUS.21:18-19 = 18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, 19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.

FYI? LOL, I guess you think that you're telling me something that I didn't know.

 

[Hank77]

So my thoughts are:
No capital punishment, but whole life in prison in case of extreme violations. In cases where that person is not able to stop his/her crime. Let that person work for his/her food and living. If they cannot they will die. These criminals should not benefit from honest / good perople. Is this wrong to do so? No, they have chosen this path and they shall adhere with the consequences!

I agree.

 

[Barney2.0]

Well of coarse, everyone knows that. My point was that once they are DEAD they no longer have the opportunity to do that.

Then yes your right.

 

[Pat4Jesus]

By now it should be well-known that Pope Francis has revised the Catholic Catechism to say that capital punishment is inadmissible. What do you think about the relationship between Christianity and capital punishment? I want to hear from all Christians, and I also want to give Catholics a place to argue. The topic is two-fold: capital punishment in general, and also specifically within the Catholic Church.

Some relevant links:

• Pope Francis Changes Catechism... (NCR)
• History of Capital Punishment in Catholicism (Stack Exchange)
• Capital Punishment and Christianity (BBC)
• Arguments for and against (Public Discourse)
• By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment (book)
• Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition (book)
• Video interview on capital punishment with Catholic philosopher, Edward Feser (Daily Wire)

It ought to be critically notable that while Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI agreed philosophically with Francis on the Death Penalty issue; NEITHER went so far as to eliminate it. WHY IS THIS?

Answer: Because the option of the Death Penalty; CONDITIONALLY has been a defined and accepted Doctrine of the RCC from at least the late 4th Century when is was defined by Augustine :

St. Augustine {354-386}

The same divine authority that forbids the killing of a human being establishes certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time.

The agent who executes the killing does not commit homicide; he is an instrument as is the sword with which he cuts. Therefore, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death, according to the law, that is, the will of the most just reason.

(The City of God, Book 1, chapter 21)

Not even the Pope is able to rewrite the Bible, Sacred Tradition, Defied Doctrine, and or the Catechism. Though this Pope continued to attempt to do precisely that.

What Pope Francis has commanded is only his own opinions. Let US pray with and for him.

Patrick

 

[Pat4Jesus]

By now it should be well-known that Pope Francis has revised the Catholic Catechism to say that capital punishment is inadmissible. What do you think about the relationship between Christianity and capital punishment? I want to hear from all Christians, and I also want to give Catholics a place to argue. The topic is two-fold: capital punishment in general, and also specifically within the Catholic Church.

Some relevant links:

• Pope Francis Changes Catechism... (NCR)
• History of Capital Punishment in Catholicism (Stack Exchange)
• Capital Punishment and Christianity (BBC)
• Arguments for and against (Public Discourse)
• By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment (book)
• Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition (book)
• Video interview on capital punishment with Catholic philosopher, Edward Feser (Daily Wire)

There exist here a CRITICAL overriding -issue to be considered far surpassing this one isolated concern which itself is also important. St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who it seems would agree philosophically with Pope Francis on this isolated issue nevertheless knew that they could not “outlaw” the “Death Penalty” without establishing simultaneously a dangerous and historic precedent setting overriding- “authority” of existing-defined Catholic and often biblically grounded Doctrine. Knowing that doing so opens a NEW “Pandora’s Box.” If one Doctrine can be redefined; so too can all others. …. THAT friends is the REAL issue here. … Hence that kind of power and authority is nonexistent by absolute necessity.

If permitted to ”stand”, the Francis decision would be a landmark verdict; a truly historic proclamation in that it DOES attempt to exhibit the power and authority to rewrite the Bible; Sacred Tradition, and redefine Dogma of the RCC; thus opening up that SAME possibility for Any and ALL pre-Francis declarations on ANY matter, at ANY time.

Matthew 16:18: [18]”And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. “ This friends is a New Testament Covenant that is up to this latest challenge

May Jesus guide our path,
Patrick

 

[ViaCrucis]

By now it should be well-known that Pope Francis has revised the Catholic Catechism to say that capital punishment is inadmissible. What do you think about the relationship between Christianity and capital punishment? I want to hear from all Christians, and I also want to give Catholics a place to argue. The topic is two-fold: capital punishment in general, and also specifically within the Catholic Church.

Some relevant links:

• Pope Francis Changes Catechism... (NCR)
• History of Capital Punishment in Catholicism (Stack Exchange)
• Capital Punishment and Christianity (BBC)
• Arguments for and against (Public Discourse)
• By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment (book)
• Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition (book)
• Video interview on capital punishment with Catholic philosopher, Edward Feser (Daily Wire)

I don't think Francis has said a whole lot different than what his predecessors have said, has he? Views on the death penalty have largely been negative, on the basis of the Roman Catholic Church's pro life ethos, for pretty much the entire 20th and 21st centuries.

I would, by and large, agree. I don't think Christians should support the death penalty. I can accept that there may be cases where the death of an individual is a necessary evil in order to stop further death and destruction--but these cases should be taken quite seriously, not frivolously. As a Christian I believe I am called to promote life, peace, and justice.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Erik Nelson]

if in the earliest centuries of the church, capital punishment was applied to Christians, then perhaps a similar danger lurks in the time of Gog and Magog? If the first Christians on this earth were persecuted with capital punishment then perhaps the last Christians on this planet (prior to final judgment day) will have to fear the same ???

 

[akaDaScribe]

So, ...
many innocent people are killed in aircraft accidents caused by pilot mistakes = abolish flying and ban aircrafts.? = no innocents will be "wrongly" killed by aircraft accidents.?

Many innocent people are killed in car accidents caused by driver mistakes = abolish driving and ban cars.? = no innocents will be "wrongly" killed by car accidents.?

"To err is human".

"Humans are not perfect".

I don't think "to err is human" is an acceptable standard for purposely taking someone's life. These things sound good on paper until it's you or someone close to you it happens to. This is why I submit that an overwhelming evidence position on this would probably be the most agreeable. If my son was falsely accused of murder or some other crime, which happens more often than you might think, I don't think he should be put to death and just call it collateral damage. If my son was caught on video shooting up a mall, it would grieve me, but i really have nothing to say. I'm just saying there needs to be a higher standard of evidence than a reasonable doubt for capital punishment.