Christian Wicca

Dark_Lite · Jul 16, 2004

Lifesaver said:
Not at all.
They are seeing God in two contradictory ways. They are seeing, in effect, two Gods.

Also, does not belief in Wiccan include belief (not practice) in the existence of magick (the energy that witches manipulate, etc...)? This is also completely anathema with Christianity.

A so-called Christian Wiccan is certainly not a Christian (unless he means something else and uses the word "Christian"). Is he a Wiccan, though? I cannot say.

If you put Christian in its barest form as a "follower of Christ," then many people are Christians. However, when you use it the common form of "orthodox Christianity," this is when it changes .

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Ah, so by your own admission the guiding of the Holy Spirit is imperfect. It leads to error as well as truth.

No, I said I WAS IMPERFECT, not God nor the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit, who is God, cannot tolerate any error, and He is also not powerless! In short, if there is indeed a spirit guiding you, it can't possibly be holy...

Just because God cannot tolerate error does not mean that he cannot guide us. And who says every act I make is of the Holy Spirit? Not I! David, the great David, who was even in the New Testament told to be guided by the Holy Spirit, sinned! Dont think that just because you have the guidence of God, that you then become perfect in every act.

I have no doubt that you have faith. It is clear that you are zealous and strive to be right. However, given your rejection of something which is as important as Scripture, your faith leads you to believe in many false things.

How dare you claim scripture outside the Bible to be as Holy and as Infallible as the Word of God written down in the Bible.

Jude 1
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Since our faith is defined by Scripture, Jude is essentially saying that Scripture was given once, for the benefit of all Christians. Not given with constant additions several hundred years later.

I truely hope you reconsider what you have said, I am quite bothered by your faith and how it collides with the truth of the Scripture.

Lifesaver · Jul 16, 2004

Dark_Lite said:
If you put Christian in its barest form as a "follower of Christ," then many people are Christians. However, when you use it the common form of "orthodox Christianity," this is when it changes.

And given the fact that the path is narrow, are the unorthodox walking by it?

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Dark_Lite said:
Crispy... you know... the ironic thing about your entire argument is this:

If there was no Catholic Church, you wouldn't have a Bible to quote stuff out of.

Think about that for awhile. I mean really think about it.

How do you know? How do you know that if the Catholic Church didnt exist, that another Church would or would not assemble all the Correct Scripture into 1 bible? You dont. Do not use that as an excuse to make Catholicism the truth, if that is indeed what you are trying to do(only a guess?). Catholics didnt create the scripture, they only assembled it into mainstreem. Also how do you know if the Catholics were corrupt or not back then?

Cerridwen · Jul 16, 2004

I couldn't honestly tell you about Christian Wiccans, Lifesaver. I disagree with their theology, as I've said before. However, because I am Wiccan, I won't say that their choice is invalid, because I don't have the authority to decide what's valid or not for anyone but myself. I don't consider them to be Wiccan in the traditional sense, nor do I consider them to be Christian in the traditional sense. From my understanding of their beliefs, they don't follow all parameters of Christianity or all parameters of Wicca. It's difficult for me to see how the beliefs can reconcile one another, as I think that there are fundamental differences at the very cores of Wicca & Christianity. That being said, though, people can call themselves whatever they want, & it's not for me to tell them otherwise. I just try to kind of take the idea of "Christian Wicca" with a grain of salt, because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

Lifesaver · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie said:
No, I said I WAS IMPERFECT, not God nor the Holy Spirit.

You said you are guided by the Holy Spirit.
And yet, you fall into error.
What kind of guiding is this, if not an imperfect one?

How dare you claim scripture outside the Bible to be as Holy and as Infallible as the Word of God written down in the Bible.

Not Scripture, Crispy. Sacred Oral Tradition.
How dare you claim it is not of God?
That is why your faith is so irrational and contradictory, believing in personal interpretation, Jack Chick and having no basis on which to know which book are inspired and which are not.

I truely hope you reconsider what you have said, I am quite bothered by your faith and how it collides with the truth of the Scripture.

My faith collides only with Crispie's interpretation of Scripture, which, by her own admission and public slip, is imperfect and does not lead to the full truth, which can only be found in the Catholic Church.
I am quite pleased to collide directly against partial truths and contradictions, and the fact that this bothers you is already a step in the right direction. Worse would it be if you, like Jack Chick and others of your faith, had become impervious to, and immovable by, any kind of reason and logic.

Dark_Lite · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie said:
How do you know? How do you know that if the Catholic Church didnt exist, that another Church would or would not assemble all the Correct Scripture into 1 bible? You dont. Do not use that as an excuse to make Catholicism the truth. Catholics didnt create the scripture, they only assembled it into mainstreem. Also how do you know if the Catholics were corrupt or not back then?

Well, since you want to get into the realm of the unknowable, let us move to that realm.

Regardless of how it works out, in the end this church would still have to claim some sort of tradition to set the Bible up. If looked at purely objectively, the point in history where the Bible was assembled is the following: A bunch of ancient men assembling from a choice of scripture, perhaps suiting it to their own needs, or perhaps not. This leaves the group, or the Church, the necessity to claim a form of tradition or authority to declare what they have set up to be true. So in the end, you'll still end up with the same problem you have today.

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Lifesaver said:
You said you are guided by the Holy Spirit.
And yet, you fall into error.
What kind of guiding is this, if not an imperfect one?

Not Scripture, Crispy. Sacred Oral Tradition.
How dare you claim it is not of God?
That is why your faith is so irrational and contradictory, believing in personal interpretation, Jack Chick and having no basis on which to know which book are inspired and which are not.

My faith collides only with Crispie's interpretation of Scripture, which, by her own admission and public slip, is imperfect and does not lead to the full truth, which can only be found in the Catholic Church.
I am quite pleased to collide directly against partial truths and contradictions, and the fact that this bothers you is already a step in the right direction. Worse would it be if you, like Jack Chick and others of your faith, had become impervious to, and immovable by, any kind of reason and logic.

1.Guidence is DIFFERENT than control, do you not know this?

2.Funny thing is...Jack Chick uses bible verses for every claim he makes in his tracts about Jesus Christ and what the bible says. I know why the books of the bible are right is because they are all consistent(both new and old testament), non contradictory, and given by God to us. Youd rather believe that claims passed down from church to church are equal, to the Word of God given all at near the same exact time by chosen people of God then to only believe what God originally gave us, what we truely needed, and non extra.

3. Look at you, full of pride, claiming that truths of the bible are contradictory, saying the Catholic Church is the only holder of the Truth of God, though NO WHERE in scripture does it say this. Would you like it if a church several hundred years old created their own "tradition" and claimed it to be part of Gods truth, and that it must be accepted? God gave us all we needed to know about our faith in the bible, and gave us the Holy Spirit in these days to help guide us to keep with the scripture, not to create new scripture.

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Over the years, church leaders have tried to weed the good books from
the bad, to ensure that the NT was as pure as possible. Here are the
factors they considered:

CREDIBILITY. When the gospels were written, many people were still
alive that recalled the events depicted in them. Those writings found
false were automatically eliminated.

WORD OF GOD. Did they claim to be the word of God? If not, they were rejected.

WRITTEN BY AN APOSTLE. Was it written by an apostle or a close
associate of an apostle? This was considered helpful for inclusion.
While this factor may be considered unfair, it was one way for
Christians to ensure that the information passed on to them was
correct. One would not expect an apostle to lie, after all.

AGREEMENT. Whether or not the book was in agreement with The Old
Testament also was factored in. Also, was it in agreement with NT
books already scrutinized and accepted?

ACCURACY OF TEXT. Texts were also compared to the earliest examples.
There are thousands of copies of the New Testament books, so it was
fairly easy to see which copies were accurate and which were not.

CONSISTENT. Were the books consistent with Jesus teaching? Many books
were rejected because they obviously did not concur with Christs
message.

HISTORICAL ACCURACY. Books with serious historical inaccuracies were
also rejected.

Lifesaver · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie said:
1.Guidence is DIFFERENT than control, do you not know this?

Crispie, your WHOLE faith is based on this guidance, and it has led you to terrible errors, such as the one you exposed in this thread.
Are you not concerned? Don't you have a suspicion that maybe it's just you reading the Bible and feeling things (like Mormons feel) and mistaking them for the Holy Spirit?
Afterall, your faith, by your own admission, does not lead you to the whole truth; you are only guided somewhat in the right direction.

2.Funny thing is...Jack Chick uses bible verses for every claim he makes in his tracts about Jesus Christ and what the bible says.

Where in the Bible does it say the Catholic Church is responsible for Freemasonry, Mormonism, the communist revolution, nazism, Jehova's witnesses, Islam, international bankers, the mafia, the council of foreign relations and paganism?
Because this is the intelectual calliber of the man you are using as teacher.

I know why the books of the bible are right is because they are all consistent(both new and old testament), non contradictory, and given by God to us.

And my question all along is how do you know they were "given by God to us"? That information is NOT in the Bible.
I know I can repeat this all I want, that you'll never give me an answer, because there is no answer you can give. Please, just rethink your beliefs and realise that if something is contrary to logic, it can't possibly be of God.

3. Look at you, full of pride, claiming that truths of the bible are contradictory,

This is a false accusation, for I never said it. It is the truths of Crispie which are contradictory. And as I continue to point out, they are not in the Bible.

saying the Catholic Church is the only holder of the Truth of God, though NO WHERE in scripture does it say this.

I suggest you re-read Matthew 16, when Jesus estabilishes His Church. He claims the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
If one little error is accepted as truth, then Hell has already prevailed. The Church HAS to be infallible, and you have just admitted that your church (all of those who are Christian) is not.

God gave us all we needed to know about our faith in the bible, and gave us the Holy Spirit in these days to help guide us to keep with the scripture, not to create new scripture.

Given the sheer number of different protestant denominations, all claiming different things in a real chaotic mess, the Holy Spirit must have been VERY unsuccesful.
But since He is God, He can't fail like that.
It's time for you to face reality: it's you who has been interpreting Scripture, or accepting the interpretation of Jack Chick. Don't put the Holy Spirit where there is error.

Lifesaver · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie said:
Over the years, church leaders have tried to weed the good books from
the bad, to ensure that the NT was as pure as possible. Here are the
factors they considered:CREDIBILITY. When the gospels were written, many people were still alive that recalled the events depicted in them. Those writings found
false were automatically eliminated.
WORD OF GOD. Did they claim to be the word of God? If not, they were rejected.
WRITTEN BY AN APOSTLE. Was it written by an apostle or a close
associate of an apostle? This was considered helpful for inclusion.
While this factor may be considered unfair, it was one way for
Christians to ensure that the information passed on to them was
correct. One would not expect an apostle to lie, after all.
AGREEMENT. Whether or not the book was in agreement with The Old
Testament also was factored in. Also, was it in agreement with NT
books already scrutinized and accepted?
ACCURACY OF TEXT. Texts were also compared to the earliest examples.
There are thousands of copies of the New Testament books, so it was
fairly easy to see which copies were accurate and which were not.
CONSISTENT. Were the books consistent with Jesus’ teaching? Many books
were rejected because they obviously did not concur with Christ’s
message.HISTORICAL ACCURACY. Books with serious historical inaccuracies were also rejected.

And since none of this is in the Bible, you have fallen in contradiction once again. If you still don't believe in Tradition, then your situation is even worse, for you are relying on the interpretation and weeding of men who can fall into error even when guided by the Holy Spirit (according to you) and who did not have the Bible to set as a standard to decide which books would be a part of the Bible.

seebs · Jul 16, 2004

Lifesaver said:
And given the fact that the path is narrow, are the unorthodox walking by it?

Quite possibly. Certainly, if it's very narrow, it cannot be the case that all of the orthodox are walking by it.

Most likely, the distinctions God draws are not the ones we draw.

Lifesaver · Jul 16, 2004

seebs said:
Quite possibly. Certainly, if it's very narrow, it cannot be the case that all of the orthodox are walking by it.

Indeed; the narrower it is, the more orthodox one has to be to be walking by it. And we do not know its precise width.

In Reply to Crispie:

Here is some information to give you a new perspective on Jack Chick. Now it's already too late for me to keep here debating, but I hope you read this well. Good night.
http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp

Servant of the Kingdom · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie said:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Lol, man these Chick Tracts own. This is the reason why I dont think Catholicism is even Christian, just a manipulation of Christianity.

It's sad to think you have made fun out of us, sad because it is in the first place sinful, sad because the tract is loaded with falsities and half truths. Do you think starting to witness by writing LOL is a good way?

Rae · Jul 16, 2004

if you made the Holy Lady Mary and the Old man St Peter you almost have a catholic prayer

Maybe Martin Page is a Catholic. But I can't be sure since the song I took those lyrics from is about the Grand Canyon, referred to by the Native Americans in the West as the "House of Stone and Light." I've never seen an explanation for who the people or what the images in the song are, other than what House of Stone and Light means. You might be right.

Rae · Jul 16, 2004

Ok how about this one:
Exodus 22;18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Is this a serious death threat, Brinley? Are you suggesting the Christians here should kill anyone who calls her or himself a Witch?

And can you not see that modern day Witchcraft could not possibly be what this author had been referring to? It did NOT exist when this verse was written.

Filia Mariae · Jul 16, 2004

Are people seriously citing Jack Chick tracts as a source of information?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Sigh, I can only say this about what I have learned recently. Catholicism is its own religion, and Christianity is another Reigion. Now I know why so many catholics disregard much of the bible that I show to them, since they also believe in other additions to Gods word made by the Church. So no more shall I debate against Catholic beliefs, since Catholics dont even use the Bible in its purest form as the Truth of God, the only scripture to be given by God. I can only say this, I hope you realize your beliefs are on an addition created by the Church, not by the founders and creator of Christianity. And remember, the Church is under the authority of Christ, and is all the members of Gods family, not a government(Vatican) who dictates the truth of God.

Crispie · Jul 16, 2004

Carly said:
Are people seriously citing Jack Chick tracts as a source of information?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

The only reason you say that is because he is against Catholicism, and only uses scripture in all he preaches about God in the tracts. I strongly agree with many of the Tracts, though I have not read them all.

Servant of the Kingdom · Jul 16, 2004

Crispie I used to play D&D and the first time I saw a chick track on this I honestly thought it was a joke to put christians down.

That "Only Scripture" of yours is a pre-judgement.

Do you want to listen of what we want to say? Do you want to know what we believe? Do you care or are you so sure about being right that finding truth will not move from your position?

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