Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I honestly don't see the difference...

Quite amazing that this has been an acceptable arrangement for all this time. But with such grim consequences threatened for noncompliance, I suppose that makes sense as an inescapable tyranny.

But then to bow in willing worship and exclaim adoration... seems madness. Extolling the love and mercy of God, yet believing that the vast majority of humanity will be incinerated.

And the haughty superiority this breeds in the minds of those fortunate few who look down on "the damned" God-haters who "have it coming."

Who when challenged want to remind us of the "total depravity" of humankind. As if God created humankind to be irredeemable. Picking a few to call his own while the rest go in the dustbin of ECT. (where they belong)

That this mess would be identified as a mental illness seems quite appropriate to me. Both on the perpetrators and the compliant. With whom I used to number myself.

 

[ozso]

Exactly. I call this spiritual extortion.
Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather that is making us an offer we can't refuse.

That's why I certainly prefer annihilation as an alternative to UR. That's basically simply, you get eternal life in the presence of God, only if that's what you really want.

 

[ozso]

That's right, the old Swiss rosti pit is yesterday's hero in the more progressive congregation. Someone's probably done a PhD on the historical changes to the imagery of hell. A hell for every occasion. But yes, I've found some degree of patronising acceptance in my very limited experience, ie we're just misguided but well-intentioned, in need of a bit of righteous kolasin for the present aion.

I'm guessing they were going by C.S. Lewis' view (or similar) that the gates of hell are locked from the inside, and if a bus bound for heaven drove down to hell, no one would want to get onboard.

 

[Hmm]

That's why I certainly prefer annihilation as an alternative to UR. That's basically simply, you get eternal life in the presence of God, only if that's what you really want.

I agree, annihilation would be preferable to eternal torture. But I think it's equally uncredible because who wouldn't really want to be with God once all their delusions and selfish desires have been stripped away and they see God for who He is? Many people don't get to know God in this life for many, many reasons, not least because they are put off by how He is often portrayed, so this is the purpose of "hell" where God can gradually break through to them and bring them into a glad acceptance of Christ. We are, after all, made in the image if God and, to me and I think this is the universalist view, part of what this means is that we will all gladly embrace God as someone who we truly want to be with once we are able to see Him clearly. And we'll all get to this point, if not in this life, then in the next.

Why this thought annoys people is a mystery to me and is the purpose of the thread, still yet to be answered some hundred pages in.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's why I certainly prefer annihilation as an alternative to UR. That's basically simply, you get eternal life in the presence of God, only if that's what you really want.

Unfortunately, that makes the human will sovereign over God's will. The Infernalists like to say that "God is a gentleman", he will not force anyone to go to heaven. Which puts the power of salvation in the will of humankind.

As I understand it, UR puts the power of salvation where it belongs, in the hands and will of God. Everyone is already saved by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. The already saved individuals are each on their own path toward that end when they will realize the full benefit. Some of us on this side of the afterlife and others in the afterlife.

And we tend to think that those who don't decide on this side of the afterlife will have a tougher time in the clean-up process than those who are already on the path. But I wonder if it will be harder on us. Of those whom much is given, much is expected. Harder to measure up to that than the ignorance of unbelief. (a legitimate excuse)

 

[Saint Steven]

... I think it's equally incredible because who wouldn't really want to be with God once all their delusions and selfish desires have been stripped away and they see God for who He is. ...

Exactly.
Anyone who supposedly "hates" God hasn't met him yet.

 

[Hmm]

Infernalists like to say that "God is a gentleman", he will not force anyone to go to heaven.

Of course this begs the question of what kind of gentleman will allow his children to run into a busy road to pick up their ball and not stop them. I don't think the argument that he was respecting their free will hold up in court!

And we tend to think that those who don't decide on this side of the afterlife will have a tougher time in the clean-up process than those who are already on the path. But I wonder if it will be harder on us. Of those whom much is given, much is expected. Harder to measure up to that than the ignorance of unbelief. (a legitimate excuse)

Interesting point. It's true to say in general that we don't have a say in what our ultimate destination is - this is reconciliation with God as Scripture so clearly says - but we do have a say in how we are going to get there, whether along the long and windy road or via the new direct motorway.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's used to justify violence and abuse as with the Spanish Inquisition where the logic was, We love you so much that, rather than let you burn in hell forever for your false beliefs, we're going to torture you for your own good, even to death, in the hope that you'll change your mind.

That's right, but it goes further imho, it seeps into the core of family values, human relationships, and also into things like the corrupt system of indulgences against which God raised up men like Savonarola and Luther. It's the 'principle' of blackmail, taking and ransoming hostages, spiritual extortion as @Saint Steven points out. I really don't think I can overstate its pernicious effects throughout history. Now here we are, the world held hostage by Mystery Babylon under threat of the pestilence that stalks by night.

That's also why we rejoice in Christ - because as a ransom for all he took captivity captive, exposing and disarming the powers and principalities - these are the kinds of cells he jailbreaks us from, restoring our sight can see through the tawdry panic-merchandise of the devil. All glory to God!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Exactly.
Anyone who supposedly "hates" God hasn't met him yet.

That's exactly right. I've used the poor example of a stranger who saves your kid from drowning at the beach when you're distracted. You cannot but love that stranger and feel a deep debt of gratitude. It's just how we're made. And Jesus has done that elevated to the nth degree.

Open to any better examples lol?

 

[ozso]

I agree, annihilation would be preferable to eternal torture. But I think it's equally uncredible because who wouldn't really want to be with God once all their delusions and selfish desires have been stripped away and they see God for who He is? Many people don't get to know God in this life for many, many reasons, not least because they are put off by how He is often portrayed, so this is the purpose of "hell" where God can gradually break through to them and bring them into a glad acceptance of Christ. We are, after all, made in the image if God and, to me and I think this is the universalist view, part of what this means is that we will all gladly embrace God as someone who we truly want to be with once we are able to see Him clearly. And we'll all get to this point, if not in this life, then in the next.

Why this thought annoys people is a mystery to me and is the purpose of the thread, still yet to be answered some hundred pages in.

One argument to that well thought out summary I can think of is, what about the fallen angels? They experienced God in heaven and yet chose to rebel against Him.

 

[Hmm]

One argument to that well thought out summary I can think of is, what about the fallen angels? They experienced God in heaven and yet chose to rebel against Him.

Good question! I wonder if the "new heaven and earth" which is what the Bible promises is somehow different than the initial heaven - Eden as far as humankind goes and whatever existence the angels had. I don't know enough to comment on that but perhaps the new heaven is in some ways better than the old heaven in that we recognise our need for God, in the same way that the prodigal son came to appreciate his life with his father after experiencing a sinful life and learning that that wasn't what he really wanted?

 

[Saint Steven]

That's exactly right. I've used the poor example of a stranger who saves your kid from drowning at the beach when you're distracted. You cannot but love that stranger and feel a deep debt of gratitude. It's just how we're made. And Jesus has done that elevated to the nth degree.

Open to any better examples lol?

Perhaps it centers around the definition of humane behavior. What I would consider a God-given sympathy toward our fellow humans. We are quick to label the opposite as inhumane.

But somehow the whole idea is lost in Christian religion. Suddenly humans are the "enemy" of God. Worthless "sinful" trash, as a whole, that are seemingly irreconcilably worthless in God's sight. Total depravity, as they say.

I take individually wrapped granola bars with me on my driving route for work. I see several people on corners with their cardboard signs asking for help. I will give them a granola bar. I used to give cash. But this seems a better idea. A fellow last week was so hungry he ate half the bar before the light changed. So I gave him another one. He said "God bless you" with the first one.

There's a guy at one intersection that I have trained to take a bar while I am moving. I'm back about 5 or 6 cars and I hold it up so he can see it. Then we do the baton hand-off while I pass. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

One argument to that well thought out summary I can think of is, what about the fallen angels? They experienced God in heaven and yet chose to rebel against Him.

Familiarity breeds contempt?

It makes you wonder how that could even happen. And if we will face a similar temptation when we arrive. If the angels could fall, why couldn't we?

Might mean another trip to the hot tub. Or we may even need regular maintenance? - lol (ouch)

 

[Hmm]

Perhaps it centers around the definition of humane behavior. What I would consider a God-given sympathy toward our fellow humans. We are quick to label the opposite as inhumane.

But somehow the whole idea is lost in Christian religion. Suddenly humans are the "enemy" of God. Worthless "sinful" trash, as a whole, that are seemingly irreconcilably worthless in God's sight. Total depravity, as they say.

I take individually wrapped granola bars with me on my driving route for work. I see several people on corners with their cardboard signs asking for help. I will give them a granola bar. I used to give cash. But this seems a better idea. A fellow last week was so hungry he ate half the bar before the light changed. So I gave him another one. He said "God bless you" with the first one.

There's a guy at one intersection that I have trained to take a bar while I am moving. I'm back about 5 or 6 cars and I hold it up so he can see it. Then we do the baton hand-off while I pass. - lol

That's real Christianity in action. Good on you. I'm sure much more pleasing to God than sitting around calling each other "dirty rags"!

 

[Major1]

Thanks for an apposite verse. We partake by believing, and all shall believe. That's what makes the victory absolute, life abundant, death defeated. It's really quite elementary. So reason with me Watson, though your sins are as scarlet they shall be white as wool.

May I ask, who is it in particular that you'd like to see burn in hell forever, Major? We all have sins which may take more than a lifetime to overcome.

Dear shrewd...........This may come as a shock to you, but I had nothing to do with the material found in the Bible.

"I" have many, many loved ones and friends who were lost and died. I would love to think that all of them would go to heaven.

To do that means that I would have to reject the word of God and place in its place WHAT I WANTED GOD TO HAVE SAID.

YOU seem to be able to do that but I just do not have tht ability or power.

God bless you my friend and thanks for the question.

 

[Major1]

Why do you assume that your "opponents" on this thread "reject the word of God"?

It's good that you back up what you say with Scripture references. In the commentary I wrote to decide between ECT, annihilation and UR (and along the way, discredited "hell"), I backed up every major point with Scripture references, both OT and NT.

I do not understand your question!!!

If God says that the lost will be tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally then that ends the conversation.

Luke 16:22-23.......
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

 

[Major1]

That's confusing because you cited the tenants of Calvinism as your core beliefs. This is the first time I recall you stating otherwise.

That is not so MAXX.

Because I agree with some of the theology does not mean I am a Calvinist.

The TULIP of Calvinism is the acronym that represents the five primary points that represent as the word TULIP>:
Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints. Hence, they are called the five points of Calvinism. The five points “emerged from the Synod of Dort (1618– 19).”

Do you not agree that man is totally depraved as is told to us in the Scripture.

Do you also accept the the grace of God is irrestable when applied by God as seen in the Scriptures.

Do you also accept that as believers we have the ability to persevere through all the challenges of life?

Now we can disagree and discuss Unconditional election which is always the problem and limited atonement but does that mean everything should be rejected.....or do you.

 

[Major1]

What doctrine isn't called something like "a manufactured opinion from the minds of those who do not accept what God said", by those who hold to another doctrine?

That would then be called......."False Teaching".

 

[Major1]

Here we go back again to you saying rejecting your favorite doctrine means rejecting the word of God.



That's what they all say. Those from every doctrine, theology and denomination all say that same thing.

Truth always causes division.

Please understand that you saying "I have a favorite doctrine" does not make that truth.

The ONLY doctrine I have as a favorite is that Jesus Christ has saved me from the destiny of the Lake of Fire.

 

[Major1]

Not true. It happened before, it can happen again.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

So you are are saying that Jonah DIED in the fish and are using that to say all men can die and then make a choice of Christ.

What Scripture can you show that Jonah DIED?

Ephesians 4 has nothing to do with anyone died and coming back to life to choose Christ. Jesus went to the PARADISE side of Sheol to speak to those in the Torments side.

Where in 1 Peter 4 do we see that anyone left TORMENTS?????
Read the words YOU posted......
"For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14 again says that Christ died and returned. That does not say one single thing about any one in Hell having a second chance.

Do you actually READ the Scriptures you post Steve???

Do you realize that what you post is exactly the opposite of what you believ????