Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

But...only those of us who are not UR-ites can say it and truly mean it. How many times in a discussion here does someone from the Hell no! crowd say words do not mean what they are translated as in most versions?
They say,"'Aionios' does not mean 'eternal.'" It supposedly means the nonsense phrase "age during." They take a simple adjective and turn it into a noun and a preposition.
They say "Kolasis" does not mean "punishment." it supposedly means "correction." Although the only other occurrence of "kolasis" in the NT, 1 John 4:18 says the one who has "torment"/"kolasis" is "not made perfect." No correction.
The ball is in your court. But I'm pretty sure it is game, set, match.

Yep Der Alte is the incontrovertible winner. You can all go home now folks.

 

[Der Alte]

Yep Der Alte is the incontrovertible winner. You can all go home now folks.

Did I say anything that was untrue?

 

[ozso]

Did I say anything that was untrue?

How would I know? I'm stupid and ignorant. Whereas you're smarter, older, better educated, more knowledgeable etc.

 

[ozso]

When I clicked on new posts, I saw there's a thread titled "Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching".

That's just one of many doctrines/theologies, including UR, which receives that kind of criticism. Along with I'm sure it being said that it goes against the word of God, is the attempt of man to rewrite the word of God and so on.

All across the board is one doctrine/theology after another that's said to be a mistranslation of Greek. Improper hermeneutics. Lacks exegesis. Is full of eisegesis. Is man-made and so on.

If you believe in it, then you don't believe the word of God. You're rejecting the word of God. You're calling God a liar. You don't have the Holy Spirit.
You don't read the Bible. You need to read the Bible. You don't understand the Bible. That's not in their Bible and so on.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Nothing whatsoever surprises me that is said from those who reject the word of God.

You will not find one single thing I have said which I did not back up with Scripture from the word of God.

Why do you assume that your "opponents" on this thread "reject the word of God"?

It's good that you back up what you say with Scripture references. In the commentary I wrote to decide between ECT, annihilation and UR (and along the way, discredited "hell"), I backed up every major point with Scripture references, both OT and NT.

 

[ozso]

Why do you assume that your "opponents" on this thread "reject the word of God"?

It's good that you back up what you say with Scripture references. In the commentary I wrote to decide between ECT, annihilation and UR (and along the way, discredited "hell"), I backed up every major point with Scripture references, both OT and NT.

No sir. You are rejecting the word of God by changing it to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[Hmm]

No sir. You are rejecting the word of God by changing it to make it say what you want it to say.

This is the constant refrain from Team Hell. I think everyone, Christian universalists and non-universalists alike, has said here that they believe that Christ is the only route to salvation but this is not believed for some reason if it comes from a universalist. I think the reason is that universalism dissociates God from eternal torture which to them it's a core belief (even though it's not part of the Nicene Creed). It's very hard to let go of such a belief because it means accepting that what they have been taught about ECT is wrong and ECT looms behind every aspect of their faith. How often have we heard people say that they wouldn't be a Christian if there wasn't a hell? It would make them feel that they have got it completely wrong and no-one wants to feel that.

 

[ozso]

This is the constant refrain from Team Hell. I think everyone, Christian universalists and non-universalists alike, has said here that they believe that Christ is the only route to salvation but this is not believed for some reason if it comes from a universalist. I think the reason is that universalism dissociates God from eternal torture which to them it's a core belief (even though it's not part of the Nicene Creed). It's very hard to let go of such a belief because it means accepting that what they have been taught about ECT is wrong and ECT looms behind every aspect of their faith. How often have we heard people say that they wouldn't be a Christian if there wasn't a hell? It would make them feel that they have got it completely wrong and no-one wants to feel that.

There's a current thread titled I was never interested in Christianity out of love for God. where the OP basically said choosing to be a Christian was based on either being a believer or frying in hell forever.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You said.......
Good, so if the victory of Christ is a gift of God which those who believe can partake, then the total victory is surely the same gift partaken in by all creatures.

NO!

John 3:16....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Thanks for an apposite verse. We partake by believing, and all shall believe. That's what makes the victory absolute, life abundant, death defeated. It's really quite elementary. So reason with me Watson, though your sins are as scarlet they shall be white as wool.

May I ask, who is it in particular that you'd like to see burn in hell forever, Major? We all have sins which may take more than a lifetime to overcome.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was talking about on an individual basis. However personally I've tended to hear the term eternal separation more often than not by those at churches I've attended.

That's right, the old Swiss rosti pit is yesterday's hero in the more progressive congregation. Someone's probably done a PhD on the historical changes to the imagery of hell. A hell for every occasion. But yes, I've found some degree of patronising acceptance in my very limited experience, ie we're just misguided but well-intentioned, in need of a bit of righteous kolasin for the present aion.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There's a current thread titled I was never interested in Christianity out of love for God. where the OP basically said choosing to be a Christian was based on either being a believer or frying in hell forever.

That's exactly where it leads - you can't love a god who rules by threat of the worst kind of violence and who has the temerity to tell you he loves you and it's your fault if you end up in hell for not reciprocating. 'See what I did to my son, he got off easy...you're next pal!' That's so sick, diabolical, gaslighting, psychopathic and all-round disturbed. And what of the normative standards of behaviour it establishes...?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Did you feel that? Whooooosssh. Right over your head.

Yes, seems I always miss whatever point it is you're at pains to make Der Alter.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

What JESUS said above will fulfill LITERALLY in this current Day, the third Day after He had been sent by the Father to preach the Gospel of GOD's kingdom, which will be established from now on, day by day, in this seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the millennium of Vengeance.

The fire destroys the curse of sin and death. You don't take victims and smash them for no good reason. You want to save them, it's mercy upon all, its restoration time, that's what the Omega Plan is all about, not VEEEAAANNGGGEAANNCCE!

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. (Rev 15:1)

So after the 7 plagues, wrath ist kaput? Agreed?

So by the time the Great White Throne Judgment comes around, God has quit smiting. Instead, He's intent on making all things new, encouraging the sinner to overcome, which happens when we see the nations and kings of the earth return repentant to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates (Rev 21:24-26) for healing with the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

See, Jesus puts the 'salve' in salvation. Infernalists (on the other hand) put the balm in balmy.

And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. Amen. (Rev 22:21).

 

[ozso]

It just came to me more clearly, that based on three long threads, many became Christians as an alternative to hell. Somehow I don't think that's quite what God had in mind.

I'm blessed in that I was introduced to Jesus when I was 5 (or earlier) and it was just simply Jesus loves me this I know and He's got the whole world in His hands.

When my older sister came into my room one night when I was around 8 years old and led me in praying the "sinner's prayer" or something similar, I did it because I loved Jesus, not because I had be taught what would happen to me if I didn't.

 

[Saint Steven]

The material things are figures of spiritual things.

Anything useful there? Seems a bit esoteric.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Yes, that is a little strange.
How does that relate to Jesus' prophecy about his resurrection?
The sign of Jonah. Three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Hmm]

There's a current thread titled I was never interested in Christianity out of love for God. where the OP basically said choosing to be a Christian was based on either being a believer or frying in hell forever.

It's an interesting thread. The OP starts like this:

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed, that's probably the biggest message in the NT and that's what Christians overall focus with when preaching.

and then towards the end says this:

Now let me be clear. I do not hate God. I just don't feel love for God

But how could they? It's no more possible to love a God who you believe will subject you to eternal torture for you believing the wrong thing at the moment of death than it is to love Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un. "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Edited. I've just seen that @Shrewd Manager has made the same point.

 

[Saint Steven]

But how could they? It's no more possible to love a God who you believe will subject you to eternal torture for you believing the wrong thing at the moment of death than it is to love Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un. "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Exactly. I call this spiritual extortion.
Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather that is making us an offer we can't refuse.

 

[Hmm]

And what of the normative standards of behaviour it establishes...?

It's used to justify violence and abuse as with the Spanish Inquisition where the logic was, We love you so much that, rather than let you burn in hell forever for your false beliefs, we're going to torture you for your own good, even to death, in the hope that you'll change your mind.

 

[Saint Steven]

See, Jesus puts the 'salve' in salvation. Infernalists (on the other hand) put the balm in balmy.

Wow. That's a good way to remember it. Thanks.

 

[Hmm]

Exactly. I call this spiritual extortion.
Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather that is making us an offer we can't refuse.

Yes, I honestly don't see the difference (note, this will need amending for Calvanist Reprobates to an offer they can't accept).