Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Major1]

That saw cuts both ways, friend.
Your presuppositions proceed you. - lol

And this again is exactly why I encouraged you to not respond to my posts.

 

[Major1]

Just to be clear, I don't expect you to LIKE what I post. My hope is only that you would make an attempt to UNDERSTAND what I post.

We don't seem to be there yet. I haven't given up on you.

GIVE UP Steve.

I know exactly what you are and where you are coming from.

I have tole you several times that you are wasting your time and energy to try and convince me of your false teaching of Universalism.

I have produced more papers and teaching booklets on your opinion than you will be able to read over the last 50 years. I am a died in the wool, old fashioned believer in the written word of God and if you want to continue to post your false thoughts........it is your time but just know that you are never going to change me and my understanding!!!!

But fell free to try!

Luke 16:22-23 is either true or it is false.........
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

 

[Major1]

But what did our Lord JESUS Christ say about His eternal Kingdom, the Kingdom of GOD? Well. JESUS is GOD, understand? JESUS is the Word made flesh. The Word is GOD, understand? Hebrews 1:v.1-3 and 8:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (in these last TWO Days or last 2.000 years) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed HEIR of ALL things, by whom also GOD made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding ALL things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

8 Unto the Son he-God the Father-saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Matthew 25:v.31 to 46
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, ... then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

What JESUS said above will fulfill LITERALLY in this current Day, the third Day after He had been sent by the Father to preach the Gospel of GOD's kingdom, which will be established from now on, day by day, in this seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the millennium of Vengeance.

Don't you know?We are in the beginning of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:v.8 combined with 1Tim.4:v.1-2, and 2Tim.4:v.3-4 among others.

Be careful or GET READY

Nothing but PRETERISM nonesense!

 

[ozso]

Truth always causes division.

Please understand that you saying "I have a favorite doctrine" does not make that truth.

The ONLY doctrine I have as a favorite is that Jesus Christ has saved me from the destiny of the Lake of Fire.

I meant side doctrines, like OSAS.

 

[ozso]

That would then be called......."False Teaching".

Yeah, it's pretty much been you accusing them, and them accusing you, of "false teaching".

 

[ozso]

That is not so MAXX.

Because I agree with some of the theology does not mean I am a Calvinist.

The TULIP of Calvinism is the acronym that represents the five primary points that represent as the word TULIP>:
Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints. Hence, they are called the five points of Calvinism. The five points “emerged from the Synod of Dort (1618– 19).”

Do you not agree that man is totally depraved as is told to us in the Scripture.

Do you also accept the the grace of God is irrestable when applied by God as seen in the Scriptures.

Do you also accept that as believers we have the ability to persevere through all the challenges of life?

Now we can disagree and discuss Unconditional election which is always the problem and limited atonement but does that mean everything should be rejected.....or do you.

It doesn't matter. Calvinist, OSAS, or whatever you're into outside of the fundamentals of the core gospel, there will be many Christians saying it isn't biblical and is false teaching etc.

And what's with the giant text?

 

[ozso]

GIVE UP Steve.

I know exactly what you are and where you are coming from.

I have tole you several times that you are wasting your time and energy to try and convince me of your false teaching of Universalism.

I have produced more papers and teaching booklets on your opinion than you will be able to read over the last 50 years.

I've seen little evidence of that. You seemed to know very little about it when you started laying into people in this thread. It all looked like uninformed retorts to me.

 

[ozso]

And this again is exactly why I encouraged you to not respond to my posts.

Don't worry, knowing Steve he'll probably put you on ignore soon.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I do not understand your question!!!

If God says that the lost will be tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally then that ends the conversation.

Luke 16:22-23.......
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

This thread has gone on for 120+ pages, so the conversation, such as it is, is NOT ended.

Anyway, if the "lost" are "tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally," as you say, then explain to me how God ever becomes "All in all" (see I Corinthians 15:28) or how Jesus the Christ will be able to boast, "Behold, I make all things new."

The verse to which you refer, Revelation 20:15, only states that the "lost" will be cast into the LoF - it does not specify for how long, for only the devil/beast/false prophet get the forever and ever bit, and I'm not too sure about the time duration there.

Your stance makes John the Baptist out to be a liar when he said Jesus the Christ would take away the sins of the world.

BTW, I consulted an ordinary KJV for this post.

 

[Der Alte]

This thread has gone on for 120+ pages, so the conversation, such as it is, is NOT ended.
Anyway, if the "lost" are "tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally," as you say, then explain to me how God ever becomes "All in all" (see I Corinthians 15:28) or how Jesus the Christ will be able to boast, "Behold, I make all things new."
The verse to which you refer, Revelation 20:15, only states that the "lost" will be cast into the LoF - it does not specify for how long, for only the devil/beast/false prophet get the forever and ever bit, and I'm not too sure about the time duration there.
Your stance makes John the Baptist out to be a liar when he said Jesus the Christ would take away the sins of the world.
BTW, I consulted an ordinary KJV for this post.

I'm looking for one verse, 2 or more, would be better, which states that the unrighteous dead will get a second chance after death. A bonus would be the Father, Himself, or, Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally, that the unrighteous dead will be saved, even after death. Or words to that effect.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
JPS Pro 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
​

 

[Hmm]

The verse to which you refer, Revelation 20:15, only states that the "lost" will be cast into the LoF - it does not specify for how long, for only the devil/beast/false prophet get the forever and ever bit, and I'm not too sure about the time duration there.

I agree but in any case to try to explain away the scripture you cites such as Paul's "All in all" and Jesus' "Behold, I make all things new" by an appeal to John's dreamlike Revelation is desperate stuff indeed. The opposite approach should be taken where the visionary prophecy of Revelation is interpreted in the light of the rest of scripture.

Are these really the best arguments Team Hell can come up with?

 

[ozso]

I do not understand your question!!!

If God says that the lost will be tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally then that ends the conversation.

Luke 16:22-23.......
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

You're confusing hades with the lake of fire. They're two different places.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree but in any case to try to explain away the scripture you cite such as Paul's "All in all" and Jesus' "Behold, I make all things new" by an appeal to John's dreamlike Revelation is desperate stuff. The opposite approach should be taken where the visionary prophecy of Revelation is interpreted in the light of the rest of scripture.
Are these really the best arguments Team Hell can come up with?

The "Hell no! team" cannot produce even one verse which states, unequivocally, that the unrighteous dead will be saved,, no matter what, even after death.
Let us consider Paul's "all in all in" light of his other statements.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

 

[Major1]

You're confusing hades with the lake of fire. They're two different places.

No sir I am not.

Hades/Sheol/Torments/Hell or what ever you want to call it is the location of all the lost souls of all the ages are confined. AFTER the 1000 year Rule of Christ those in Torments will be judged and placed in the Lake of Fire.

At this time, today....no souls are in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Major1]

This thread has gone on for 120+ pages, so the conversation, such as it is, is NOT ended.

Anyway, if the "lost" are "tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally," as you say, then explain to me how God ever becomes "All in all" (see I Corinthians 15:28) or how Jesus the Christ will be able to boast, "Behold, I make all things new."

The verse to which you refer, Revelation 20:15, only states that the "lost" will be cast into the LoF - it does not specify for how long, for only the devil/beast/false prophet get the forever and ever bit, and I'm not too sure about the time duration there.

Your stance makes John the Baptist out to be a liar when he said Jesus the Christ would take away the sins of the world.

BTW, I consulted an ordinary KJV for this post.

I did not say that the "lost" are tormented in the Lake of Fire.

NO ONE is in the lake of fire today. All the lost souls who have died are in Sheol/Hades/Hell/Torments and will stay there untill the 1000 year rule of Christ is over. Then they will be placed into the Lake of Fire.

Rev. 20:11-15........
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I also used the KJV and in Revelation 20:10 we see the answer to your question........"The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And YES......John the Baptist was correct in that Jesus takes away the sin of the world.

However, the KJV of the Bible that you like also says in John 3:16....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

To be SAVED from the eternal torments of Hell.....one must come to Jesus Christ AND CHOOSE HIM for the propitiation of their sins while are alive.

 

[ozso]

No sir I am not.

Hades/Sheol/Torments/Hell or what ever you want to call it is the location of all the lost souls of all the ages are confined. AFTER the 1000 year Rule of Christ those in Torments will be judged and placed in the Lake of Fire.

At this time, today....no souls are in the Lake of Fire.

That makes them two different places.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The "Hell no! team" cannot produce even one verse which states, unequivocally, that the unrighteous dead will be saved,, no matter what, even after death.
Let us consider Paul's "all in all in" light of his other statements.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Are you really not aware that God's Fire will burn away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble? Do you really imagine that those six things do not include all the works of the flesh that you list??

You connect the wrong dots.

 

[Major1]

That makes them two different places.

As I understand the Scriptures, that is correct.

Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination as recorded in the Bible.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I did not say that the "lost" are tormented in the Lake of Fire.

No? But you said this: "If God says that the lost will be tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally then that ends the conversation."

 

[Major1]

Don't worry, knowing Steve he'll probably put you on ignore soon.

What a blessing that would be for me!

I do not mind debate or discussion with intelligent and civil people such as yourself, however, redundant posts about opinions is not good for anyone.