Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Well again, I just explained to you that I don't think you have a 'hidden agenda.' I used the term in a different idiomatic way than that which you seem to have interpreted it.



My apologies, Hmm. I'm not actually attempting to be disruptive. I'm asking what I think are pertinent questions. But if you disagree with my line of thinking, then please tell me what it is that you'd like for us to discuss further.

Is there anything about U.R. that you want us to talk about that hasn't already been discussed as yet in this thread?

I give up.

 

[Lazarus Short]

... well yeah. At least one among you is implying that the Bible and its contents have to be questioned and that, furthermore, it's only by the proper measure of having the Holy Spirit that anyone is going to come to fully see that U.R. is correct.

Am I wrong about this?

It's quite the rabbit hole. For myself, I see only the text original, and maybe the first few copy generations, to be perfect. Copyist errors crept in over the centuries, and translations into other languages rendered "perfect" rather suspect. Further, some translations are more "perfect" than others, especially in this present age of paraphrases. The Spirits of God, maybe all seven of them, are necessary for understanding - I remember when I tried to read the KJV as a teenager, long before I became a Christian, it just seemed to be gibberish. I used my God-given common sense to "fully see that U.R. is correct" but I'm sure the Spirit(s) were involved.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's quite the rabbit hole. For myself, I see only the text original, and maybe the first few copy generations, to be perfect. Copyist errors crept in over the centuries, and translations into other languages rendered "perfect" rather suspect. Further, some translations are more "perfect" than others, especially in this present age of paraphrases. The Spirits of God, maybe all seven of them, are necessary for understanding - I remember when I tried to read the KJV as a teenager, long before I became a Christian, it just seemed to be gibberish. I used my God-given common sense to "fully see that U.R. is correct" but I'm sure the Spirit(s) were involved.

ok. That's an interesting answer. So, on the one hand, you seem to suggest that our attempts to understand the Bible and its underlying message of U.R. places us, or at least finds us initially, in a "rabbit hole." I generally agree with this.

But on the other hand, I'm not sure that then bringing in the use of common sense and a sense of surity about the involvement of the Holy Spirit actually gets us out of the "rabbit hole." From what I've seen, too many Christians claim to have understanding via the activity of the Holy Spirit yet ardently disagree with each other (sometimes vehemently) about this or that bit of Scripture. On my part, there's one thing I "KNOW," and that is that I don't understand the Bible in all of its literary fullness and I'm not sure that I ever will.

For me, there have always been a lot of messages within the Bible's ancient pages that seem to remain aloof of providing or indicating the direction to any final resolve in obtaining a perfect understanding. And if we're all still in a cognitive and epistemological "rabbit hole," then I also tend to think that it's kind of difficult to come down firmly on the side of any of the theories of 'Final States' in regard to the topic of Salvation and Hell, whether that theory is U.R., Annihilationism or E.C.T.

So, I treat all of these perspectives as focal points for an ongoing inquiry rather than a destination to reach in the here and now.

 

[rjs330]

Do you really believe that a modern English paraphrase, of a biased translation, accurately represents what Jesus actually said?

I know, I know... where does that leave you? (with a rational mind, I suppose) The tendency is to regurgitate scriptures without THINKING about what they mean in the larger picture.

My friend, I have a degree in biblical literature. Which means I have studied using the original language. I understand how it works. I have looked at these verses and studied them using the original. So I know where misunderstanding can take place.

Jesus said this.

Then the people who have done what God wants will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and make you our guest, or needing clothes and provide them?When did we see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’The King will say to them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you did these things for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did them for me!’“Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, ‘Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels! - Matthew 25:37-41 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:37-41 - Complete Jewish Bible

Scripture also says this

Then the One sitting on the throne said, “Look! I am making everything new!” Also he said, “Write, ‘These words are true and trustworthy!’”And he said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘A’ and the ‘Z,’ the Beginning and the End. To anyone who is thirsty I myself will give water free of charge from the Fountain of Life.He who wins the victory will receive these things, and I will be his God, and he will be my son.But as for the cowardly, the untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those involved with the occult and with drugs, idol-worshippers, and all liars — their destiny is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, the second death.” - Revelation 21:5-8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:5-8 - Complete Jewish Bible

I am afraid it is the UR believers that struggle with understanding scripture because they want God to fit their understanding. It is difficult to wrap our heads around a God who is filled with love and yet a righteous judge who punishes those who reject his son. God is not slack in his judgement. His ways are not our ways. His judgements are pure and right. He is not flawed by human understanding.

Therefore, let us be terrified of the possibility that, even though the promise of entering his rest remains, any one of you might be judged to have fallen short of it;for Good News has also been proclaimed to us, just as it was to them. But the message they heard didn’t do them any good, because those who heard it did not combine it with trust.For it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. It is just as he said, “And in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest.” He swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe.For there is a place where it is said, concerning the seventh day, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”And once more, our present text says, “They will not enter my rest.” - Hebrews 4:1-5 Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 4:1-5 - Complete Jewish Bible

God does not judge by flip of a coin. If you think that is what we are saying then you have no understanding. And it only shows a lack of understanding God. His mercy has been shown to us through his son. His love shown to us by his son. If we CHOOSE to reject his mercy and love then for God is is perfectly just to punish those who have. For he KNOWS the thoughts, ways, motives and actions of every person. Therefore his judgement is true. Nothing is hidden from God. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repent. But he also knows that most people won't. And he knows why.

Those who trust in him are not judged; those who do not trust have been judged already, in that they have not trusted in the one who is God’s only and unique Son.“Now this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light. Why? Because their actions were wicked.For everyone who does evil things hates the light and avoids it, so that his actions won’t be exposed.But everyone who does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions are accomplished through God.” - John 3:18-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:18-21 - Complete Jewish Bible

 

[rjs330]

How do you deal with this contradiction in the "scripture" you quoted?

It plainly says that God did not send Jesus to judge the world, but rather to save the world. Sent to save, not judge. And to save what? The world.

Was Jesus sent to save half the world? Or the micro-fraction claimed by Infernalists? Or, as it says, was he sent to save the world, the WHOLE world.

And if this was his mission, and I believe it was, did he succeed, or fail?

Did Jesus fail to save the world that God sent him to save? (nope)

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

It is easily understood if you read the rest of the passage.

Those who trust in him are not judged; those who do not trust have been judged already, in that they have not trusted in the one who is God’s only and unique Son.“Now this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light. Why? Because their actions were wicked.For everyone who does evil things hates the light and avoids it, so that his actions won’t be exposed.But everyone who does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions are accomplished through God.” - John 3:18-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:18-21 - Complete Jewish Bible

And why did you put the word scripture in quotes?

Scripture is interpreted by scripture. Therefore it never contradicts itself but understands and interprets itself. Individual verses are understood by full context of the surrounding scriptures and other scripture though out the Bible.

Yes Jesus was sent to save the world, but his salvation can be rejected by the world. It is NEVER seen as automatic as is pointed out by context. They did not trust in the son for salvation. For whosoever BELIEVES in him. Jesus clearly taught that not everyone will.

 

[rjs330]

The love versus judgment or mercy versus judgment argument reminds me of what I wrote about Psalm 136:

Psalm 136
Here I read (26 times!) this: “…his mercy endureth for ever.” Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it badly, even in ignorance, He relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, “Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are.” (Yes, I did read her book.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus’ early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy. You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God’s mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God’s mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to ECT, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is more merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let me say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), but eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and the Hell theory cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.

God's mercy does endure for ever for those that fear him.

By David: Bless Adonai, my soul! Everything in me, bless his holy name!Bless Adonai, my soul, and forget none of his benefits!He forgives all your offenses, he heals all your diseases,he redeems your life from the pit, he surrounds you with grace and compassion,he contents you with good as long as you live, so that your youth is renewed like an eagle’s.Adonai brings vindication and justice to all who are oppressed.He made his ways known to Moshe, his mighty deeds to the people of Isra’el.Adonai is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in grace.He will not always accuse, he will not keep his anger forever.He has not treated us as our sins deserve or paid us back for our offenses,because his mercy toward those who fear him is as far above earth as heaven.He has removed our sins from us as far as the east is from the west.Just as a father has compassion on his children, Adonai has compassion on those who fear him.For he understands how we are made, he remembers that we are dust.Yes, a human being’s days are like grass, he sprouts like a flower in the countryside —but when the wind sweeps over, it’s gone; and its place knows it no more.But the mercy of Adonai on those who fear him is from eternity past to eternity future, and his righteousness extends to his children’s children,provided they keep his covenant and remember to follow his precepts. - Psalm 103:1-18 Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 103:1-18 - Complete Jewish Bible

The scripture always teaches that God's mercy in contingent on our faith and trust in him and his ways.

He who sits in heaven laughs; Adonai looks at them in derision.Then in his anger he rebukes them, terrifies them in his fury.“I myself have installed my king on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”“I will proclaim the decree: Adonai said to me, ‘You are my son; today I became your father.Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance; the whole wide world will be your possession.You will break them with an iron rod, shatter them like a clay pot.’”Therefore, kings, be wise; be warned, you judges of the earth.Serve Adonai with fear; rejoice, but with trembling.Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and you perish along the way, when suddenly his anger blazes. How blessed are all who take refuge in him. - Psalm 2:4-12 Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:4-12 - Complete Jewish Bible

The mercy of God is upon those that take refuge in him and trust in him. His wrath is against those who don't.

 

[rjs330]

It's quite the rabbit hole. For myself, I see only the text original, and maybe the first few copy generations, to be perfect. Copyist errors crept in over the centuries, and translations into other languages rendered "perfect" rather suspect. Further, some translations are more "perfect" than others, especially in this present age of paraphrases. The Spirits of God, maybe all seven of them, are necessary for understanding - I remember when I tried to read the KJV as a teenager, long before I became a Christian, it just seemed to be gibberish. I used my God-given common sense to "fully see that U.R. is correct" but I'm sure the Spirit(s) were involved.

There are 5800 Greek manuscripts that validate the authenticity if the bible. That's 2.6 million pages. It's been shown that the scriptural translations we have today are very accurate. With what is written.

And there is a multitude of resources that further aid our understanding of verb structure and word meanings from the ancient texts.

The translations can limit depth. Such as the word love. Study of the originals helps us understand that the English word love has more depth. But there is no reason today to not to be able to research this. The sames goes for the word Hell. There are different meanings to the word Hell. One of the meanings refers to a place of burning. Hell is also the place of the dead.

And we learn what particular place is being referred to by the original languages. And the understanding gets deeper by context.

 

[Andrewn]

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Doesn't God's love BELONG above his justice? Where does the Bible declare that "God is justice" rather than "God is love"? And how could you declare that the caricature of God you have bought is NOT duplicitous? You have created God as a two-sided coin. Is our destiny decided by a coin-toss? - lol

I was in my teens when I heard that God's justice and love worked against each other and he had to deceive his justice to satisfy his love. It was at that moment when I started to doubt that the Church taught absolute truth. Funny thing, I did not know this was called Satisfaction Theory and had not heard any teaching against it. It just did not seem to fit the God I had known since early childhood.

 

[Andrewn]

it's kind of difficult to come down firmly on the side of any of the theories of 'Final States' in regard to the topic of Salvation and Hell, whether that theory is U.R., Annihilationism or E.C.T.

Do you prefer metempsychosis?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Do you prefer metempsychosis?

Not really. But then again, I've never been under the impression that when it comes to reading the Bible my preference for the way I'd 'like' the outcome to be matters all that much.

 

[Saint Steven]

Alright. So, I'm convinced that you guys are convinced that U.R. is the right way to interpret an imperfect Bible.

So... prior to this, you weren't convinced that we were "convinced that U.R. is the right way to interpret an imperfect Bible." ???

What was it that changed our minds? (since we were so indecisive) - lol

Sorry, Phil. Your post was such a good set-up.

 

[Saint Steven]

So, now what's next on the agenda for study? Where do you guys want to take us from here?

It seems as if we have failed to convince you. So, that would mean some unfinished business, I suppose.

We're convinced that you are convinced that we are convinced, but we're not convinced that we are convinced that you are convinced. So, if you could convince us that you are convinced, that would be great. But I'll have to warn you, we aren't easily convinced, as you already observed. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

So, now what's next on the agenda for study? Where do you guys want to take us from here?

Are you familiar with the difference between the western/Latin Church and the eastern Orthodox views on this subject?

 

[Hmm]

It seems as if we have failed to convince you. So, that would mean some unfinished business, I suppose.

We're convinced that you are convinced that we are convinced, but we're not convinced that we are convinced that you are convinced. So, if you could convince us that you are convinced, that would be great. But I'll have to warn you, we aren't easily convinced, as you already observed. - lol

Lol. It's not a matter of being convinced by intellectual argument anyway. It's obvious to a child that God wouldn't torment people forever.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Lol. It's not a matter of being convinced by intellectual argument anyway. It's obvious to a child that God wouldn't torment people forever.

You do realize, don't you, that your comment here is a form of "poisoning the well"?

It's not very nice to insinuate that your interlocutor is essentially ignorant, naricissistic, sociopathic or otherwise deficient in moral character simply because he or she doesn't immediately jump to your favored conclusion.

I mean, for all of the talk about just having a discussion, you sure do resort to 'hard ball' tactics in dealing with those who don't see eye to eye with you. Why is that, Hmm?

 

[Saint Steven]

You do realize, don't you, that your comment here is a form of "poisoning the well"?

It's not very nice to insinuate that your interlocutor is essentially ignorant, naricissistic, sociopathic or otherwise deficient in moral character simply because he or she doesn't immediately jump to your favored conclusion.

I mean, for all of the talk about just having a discussion, you sure do resort to 'hard ball' tactics in dealing with those who don't see eye to eye with you. Why is that, Hmm?

That's quite an over-reaction. Tooth and claw.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's quite an over-reaction. Tooth and claw.

Yes, I agree. So, you might suggest to Hmm that he stop doing that, Steven. His tooth and claw seem to be predominant here lately.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I agree. So, you might suggest to Hmm that he stop doing that, Steven. His tooth and claw seem to be predominant here lately.

I didn't take that post as being a slam on you. But maybe there was a cumulative effect of several posts that set you off. I suppose you could blow his mind by forgiving him. (Ephesians 4:32) This is actually the heart of UR. God will blow our minds with his forgiveness. Maybe that's the next thing to learn. (you asked)

Lol. It's not a matter of being convinced by intellectual argument anyway. It's obvious to a child that God wouldn't torment people forever.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I didn't take that post as being a slam on you. But maybe there was a cumulative effect of several posts that set you off. I suppose you could blow his mind by forgiving him. (Ephesians 4:32) This is actually the heart of UR. God will blow our minds with his forgiveness. Maybe that's the next thing to learn. (you asked)

Ok. So then, do we want to next center upon the way that forgiveness is conceptualized and applied within the framework of UR?

You'll have to forgive me in advance since I'm sure that my view about 'forgiveness' is biased since I come at it from a whole other frame of reference. That, and the fact that maybe (just maybe), I've watched too many episodes of Criminal Minds with my wife ...

So, the floor belongs to you guys here. Maybe share with us about how you personally conceptualize and apply forgiveness from a UR perspective, and maybe cite some of your sources from those who support your viewpoint in this application.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ok. So then, do we want to next center upon the way that forgiveness is conceptualized and applied within the framework of UR?

That's a good idea, Phil. Thanks.
I'll start and let other weigh in as they are led.

It begins with a changed attitude toward ALL of humankind. If you understand that the person in line ahead of you who is giving the cashier grief will one day call Jesus Lord, it changes your whole perspective. You have probably seen my apologetic for this. (pasted below)

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)