Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

It begins with a changed attitude toward ALL of humankind. If you understand that the person in line ahead of you who is giving the cashier grief will one day call Jesus Lord, it changes your whole perspective.

Great point. It means that we will start to see others more as God does because He knows that one day their knee will bow and they will whole-heartedly acknowledge Jesus as Lord.

 

[Lazarus Short]

When the prospect of living forever (with no risk of hell) really sinks in, and further, when it sinks in that the same glorious fate awaits everyone else, then these things happen:

great optimism

enduring patience

contentment with your present life, knowing it is only for a time

the ability to be friendly (or at least, tolerant) of people you really dislike

you look ahead, not behind

racism (if you had it) recedes

worries decrease

God ascends in your heart, while satan becomes seen as the minor character he is

probably other things I can't think of right now.

As the OP said, what's not to like?

 

[Hmm]

When the prospect of living forever (with no risk of hell) really sinks in, and further, when it sinks in that the same glorious fate awaits everyone else, then these things happen

That's crucial. Hitler's been brought up before so let's consider his mum. If Hitler was in an eternal hell, could his mum possibly feel that heaven was heavenly without him? She would still love him as her child even though hating what he did and so could she ever be happy knowing he was undergoing eternal torment. It's just not possible. You could conceive of a way where God erases all memory of him so that she would be happy but to me this is removing something fundamental about her - her love for her child - and so she wouldn't really be the same person.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

When the prospect of living forever (with no risk of hell) really sinks in, and further, when it sinks in that the same glorious fate awaits everyone else, then these things happen:

great optimism

enduring patience

contentment with your present life, knowing it is only for a time

the ability to be friendly (or at least, tolerant) of people you really dislike

you look ahead, not behind

racism (if you had it) recedes

worries decrease

God ascends in your heart, while satan becomes seen as the minor character he is

probably other things I can't think of right now.

As the OP said, what's not to like?

So, where does "fear and trembling" in the here and now come in in connection to our faith in all of this UR framework?

 

[Lazarus Short]

So, where does "fear and trembling" in the here and now come in in connection to our faith in all of this UR framework?

Perhaps because we will all be salted with fire...?

 

[Der Alte]

Perhaps because we will all be salted with fire...?

Another proof text that UR-ites often quote out-of-context because they obviously think it supports UR.
Where is it written that "being salted with fire" equals "salvation?" What does being salted by fire mean?

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Numbers 18:19
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.​

That which is unclean salt does not make it clean. That which is offered to God must be clean and must have salt offered with it.
Mark 9:49 has nothing to do with UR.

 

[Hmm]

Where is it written that "being salted with fire" equals "salvation?" What does being salted by fire mean?

...

Mark 9:49 has nothing to do with UR.

Why not?

Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Salt is a preservative so this implies that the fire is something that cleans or reforms. It can't mean everlasting hell fire because everyone will be salted with fire.

And from the next verse, we know that the salt is good:

Mark 9:50 "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Why then can't this mean that the fire is curative?

 

[Saint Steven]

... You could conceive of a way where God erases all memory of him so that she would be happy but to me this is removing something fundamental about her - her love for her child - and so she wouldn't really be the same person.

But then you end up with a God who has to lobotomize the inhabitants of heaven to make them happy. A virtual insane asylum. Doesn't sound like the promise of life to me.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why not?

Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Salt is a preservative so this implies that the fire is something that cleans or reforms. It can't mean everlasting hell fire because everyone will be salted with fire.

And from the next verse, we know that the salt is good:

Mark 9:50 "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Why then can't this mean that the fire is curative?

That's interesting. I've never been able to make the connection between "salted with fire" and "salt is good". (curative)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's crucial. Hitler's been brought up before so let's consider his mum. If Hitler was in an eternal hell, could his mum possibly feel that heaven was heavenly without him? She would still love him as her child even though hating what he did and so could she ever be happy knowing he was undergoing eternal torment. It's just not possible. You could conceive of a way where God erases all memory of him so that she would be happy but to me this is removing something fundamental about her - her love for her child - and so she wouldn't really be the same person.

Well, this is probably one reason why we're told to 'remove' preeminent loyalty to family members in the here in now as we follow Jesus. That way we're in a position to be beholden to the Lord and be later further transformed by Him as we go into eternity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Perhaps because we will all be salted with fire...?

Maybe. According to the UR position, what is this 'fire' specifically and how do we know whether or not it's connected to our own 'fear and trembling' in following the Lord?

 

[Der Alte]

Why not?
Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."
Salt is a preservative so this implies that the fire is something that cleans or reforms. It can't mean everlasting hell fire because everyone will be salted with fire.
And from the next verse, we know that the salt is good:
Mark 9:50 "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
Why then can't this mean that the fire is curative?

Did you even read my post? Evidently not.
Salted with fire is unquestionably a reference to Lev 2:13 and Num 18:19.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Numbers 18:19
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.​

Your proof text verse.

Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.​

Note, "every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" The sacrifice must first be clean to be offered. Everyone is NOT all mankind but everyone who is already a suitable sacrifice, already saved.
As per usual you ignored part of your quote. "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it?" What did Jesus say about salt losing it saltiness?

Mat_5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.​

 

[Hmm]

Salted with fire is unquestionably a reference to Lev 2:13 and Num 18:19.

It's not if you question it.

Your proof text verse.

So it's legit. for you to quote Lev 2:13 and Num 18:19 but if I quote Mark 9:49 it's proof texting?

In any event, what have the texts you quoted to do with ECT?

 

[Andrewn]

So, where does "fear and trembling" in the here and now come in in connection to our faith in all of this UR framework?

Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire." Salt is a preservative so this implies that the fire is something that cleans or reforms. It can't mean everlasting hell fire because everyone will be salted with fire.

Commenting on Gregory Nazianzen, ILE Ramelli wrote"

"Postmortem punishments are not retributive, but healing. The 'extreme baptism' in fire removes evil from the soul: in the other world, sinners 'will be baptized in fire, in an extreme baptism, more painful and longer, which devours matters chaff and consumes the lightness of every sin' This suffering will be long, but not eternal; it purifies the soul and once achieved this task it will come to an end. Gregory is reminiscent of 1Co 3:14-15, with the mention of chaff and straw and the declaration that people will be saved either at once or through fire."

For full treatment of Mar 9:49 see:

Mark 9 Meyer's NT Commentary

 

[Lazarus Short]

Maybe. According to the UR position, what is this 'fire' specifically and how do we know whether or not it's connected to our own 'fear and trembling' in following the Lord?

Some time AFTER I finally accepted UR, I had a growing sense of fire connected with God. I dove back into my KJV, looking up any words connected with fire, and found that there is an over-riding (and too often overlooked) metaphor about fire in the Bible. In short, we see humanity depicted as raw, unrefined ore. However, with the application of God's Fire, the ore is melted, the dross skimmed off and the silver and gold appear. The Smelter continues this process until, as one writer described it, He can see His Own reflection in the molten metal. It's a metaphor, and the Lake of Fire probably is too. I posted, somewhere on CF, my book chapter "Godfire" which goes into much more detail.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Mark 9:49 has nothing to do with UR.

On the contrary - Mark 9:49 has everything to do with UR. I see fire/Godfire as an agent to purify and save the "lost." OTOH, you see it as a means to punish and torment the lost...forever. In the end, the ECT position is very sad, but we do not serve a God of sadness.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some time AFTER I finally accepted UR, I had a growing sense of fire connected with God. I dove back into my KJV, looking up any words connected with fire, and found that there is an over-riding (and too often overlooked) metaphor about fire in the Bible. In short, we see humanity depicted as raw, unrefined ore. However, with the application of God's Fire, the ore is melted, the dross skimmed off and the silver and gold appear. The Smelter continues this process until, as one writer described it, He can see His Own reflection in the molten metal. It's a metaphor, and the Lake of Fire probably is too. I posted, somewhere on CF, my book chapter "Godfire" which goes into much more detail.

My favorite scripture on that subject. See below.

Both the refiner’s fire and the launderer’s soap are intended to purify, not as a punishment. I suppose some will be like giving the cat a bath. - lol

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Lazarus Short]

My favorite scripture on that subject. See below.

Both the refiner’s fire and the launderer’s soap are intended to purify, not as a punishment. I suppose some will be like giving the cat a bath. - lol

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

It's easy to argue against fire as a purifier, but soap? Soap can be nothing but a purifier, and if fire is closely associated with soap, as it is here, how there be any more doubt?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's easy to argue against fire as a purifier, but soap? Soap can be nothing but a purifier, and if fire is closely associated with soap, as it is here, how there be any more doubt?

Possibly, but the hermeneutical question remains: is this intrepretive notion of yours one that reflects 1st century Jewish idiomatic expressions? OR is this interpretive notion of yours one that fits an anachronistically applied 21st century Western Nation's sensibility regarding laundry detergents?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

@Shrewd Manager


If anything, I might find Kierkegaard was partially at at fault since it doesn't seem he took any hard stance against UR ...

And fortunately for me, it's only his treatment of Lessing's Ditch that really gets my attention, along with the fact that I agree with him that theology is difficult to really handle in any truly systematic way. The rest of what Kierkegaard has said is, I think, optional and not something I rely on.

Idk to what extent Kierkegaard suffered from phariseeism. As in the hypocrisy, the leaven. If we can't remove the log from our own eye, we might never get to help out our pals from the northern climes.

Jesus expends quite some effort in characterising and rebuking the pharisee mentality. It's best we try to understand what it is and how we might avoid the snares by which they are taken. Matt 23 is perhaps the prime example, when our Lord unloads on the pharisees and law teachers shortly before he is glorified. Devouring widow's houses, making new recruits worse infernalists, loading burdens on others, acting like whited sepulchres - a day in the life of the man robed in purple.

As per the King's Manifesto: 'Verily I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'