Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Clare73]

That's a distinction without a difference as far as I can see. But I'm happy to agree on "age lasting" if it helps maintain the happy home.

There's a distinction for me if the next age for us is movement into eternity.

Agreed.

But surely given your definitions above "eternal punishment/kolasis aionios" means an "age lasting pruning", IOW a time limited duration of correction?

As I said above, not if it's the next age for us, movement into eternity.

 

[Clare73]

The problem that UR advocates gloss over is that that passage, and other similar passages, takes place _after_ resurrection of the body while the punishment and purification are supposed to take place _before_ the resurrection.

A re-packaging of purgatory?

I thought they meant after the final judgment when one's sentence was given. . .????

I guess I need UR advocates to explain what they believe as happening before vs after resurrection of the body.

Christ's return, resurrection of the body and the final judgment are significant events and their position in UR should be explained rather than glossed over.

 

[Clare73]

No it is not see my posts #779-780 above this thead where I conclusively show , by scripture alone, that aionios means "eternal, everlasting etc.

Agreed. . .

Kolasis does NOT mean dock, curtail, prune. Here is the complete definition of kolasis from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons available.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

Scholars don't sit around making up definitions. They consult historical documents. In this definition I highlighted in blue the sources the BDAG scholars consulted.

How many sources have you found for dock, curtail, prune etc?

Kolasis [akin to kolazo (to curtail, prune, dock--from kolos = docked); then to check, restrain, punish]
means punishment and is used only twice in the NT: Matthew 25:46; 1 John 4:18, where I demonstrate that kolasis means "punishment."

If it does not say "eternal punishment" then Matt 25:46 is mistranslated

Agreed. . .

 

[Der Alte]

Agreed. . .
Kolasis [akin to kolazo (to curtail, prune, dock--from kolos = docked); then to check, restrain, punish]
means punishment ....

Where did this info come from? I think it is Strong's. What some folks don't realize or maybe don't want to admit is that a word derived from another word as this word "Kolasis[akin to kolazo(to curtail, prune, dock--from kolos=docked)" often does not have the same meaning as the root word.

 

[Andrewn]

I have been told that that my arguments can be easily answered but alas I have seen little to no evidence of that.
Did you not say, "This becomes more clear if we translate the phrase "life of eternity" or "life of the age to come."
If "aionios zoe" means "Life of the age to come." Then the other phrase "aionios kolasis" must mean "punishment of the age to come." But my argument still holds for "aionios zoe" neither word is in the genitive case which they must be to be translated "Life of..."

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherfoundation/what-does-aionion-mean/

I don't see the problem. I think Rev 20:112-15 and Matt 25:31-46 are the same event. Lake of fire Rev 20:15 and eternal punishment Mat 25:46 same thing.

You seem to believe that unbelievers will be judged and go to Gehenna, then will be resurrected, judged again and go to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Clare73]

Where did this info come from? I think it is Strong's. What some folks don't realize or maybe don't want to admit is that a word derived from another word as this word "Kolasis[akin to kolazo(to curtail, prune, dock--from kolos=docked)" often does not have the same meaning as the root word.

Right, and I indicated the meaning of kolasis is "punishment."

 

[Andrewn]

A re-packaging of purgatory?

Not really. The Catholic concept of Purgatory is that it is a place or a state for believers who did not live perfect lives. I think UR advocates like other Protestants believe that most born again Christian souls would go to Paradise after physical death. Gehenna, OTOH, is for non-born again sinners and unbelievers.

I thought they meant after the final judgment when one's sentence was given. . .????

You're saying that the punishment / purification is both before and after the resurrection. Perhaps you understand UR better than I do. I posted the same question in several threads and UR advocates haven't answered.

 

[Clare73]

Not really. The Catholic concept of Purgatory is that it is a place or a state for believers who did not live perfect lives. I think UR advocates like other Protestants believe that most born again Christian souls would go to Paradise after physical death. Gehenna, OTOH, is for non-born again sinners and unbelievers.


You're saying that the punishment / purification is both before and after the resurrection. Perhaps you understand UR better than I do. I posted the same question in several threads and UR advocates haven't answered.

Where do Christ rejectors go before the resurrection?

 

[Andrewn]

Where do Christ rejectors go before the resurrection?

Gehenna, which is a compartment of Hades as in Luke 16:19–31.

 

[Hmm]

I think UR advocates like other Protestants believe that most born again Christian souls would go to Paradise after physical death. Gehenna, OTOH, is for non-born again sinners and unbelievers.

That's my understanding too.

You're saying that the punishment / purification is both before and after the resurrection. Perhaps you understand UR better than I do. I posted the same question in several threads and UR advocates haven't answered.

It's an interesting question. I'm fairly new to the rationale of Christian universalism so I've only read a limited amount about it but I've never yet seen it addressed. I'll let you know if I do though

 

[Hmm]

There's a distinction for me if the next age for us is movement into eternity.
As I said above, not if it's the next age for us, movement into eternity.

If we're united with God it will be for eternity because God is eternal. We'll probably be outside of time as we know it anyway because time is a dimension of this physical space-time universe. The question is, can there be an eternal existence separate from God and universalists would answer "no" to that. How can anything exist under its own power forever?

 

[Andrewn]

Where do Christ rejectors go before the resurrection?

Gehenna, which is a compartment of Hades as in Luke 16:19–31.

This view is upheld by Anglicans, Methodists, and probably all Western Christians (and Rabbinic Jews).

But I was doing some reading, after posting my response, and there is another view that I knew decades ago but had more or less forgotten or at least rejected.

According to that view, Gehenna is not a compartment of Hades but is the same thing as the Lake of Fire.

According to that view, both the body and soul receive their punishment _after_ the resurrection.

The rich man in Luk 16:19-31 was suffering torment but, according to that view, it was not the torment of Gehenna.

 

[Clare73]

Gehenna, which is a compartment of Hades as in Luke 16:19–31.

And that's where they go after the final judgment also?
So they are judged before the final judgment?

 

[Clare73]

If we're united with God it will be for eternity because God is eternal. We'll probably be outside of time as we know it anyway because time is a dimension of this physical space-time universe.

The question is, can there be an eternal existence separate from God and universalists would answer "no" to that. How can anything exist under its own power forever?

Are you implying the same kind of existence for Satan also?

 

[Clare73]

This view is upheld by Anglicans, Methodists, and probably all Western Christians (and Rabbinic Jews).

But I was doing some reading, after posting my response, and there is another view that I knew decades ago but had more or less forgotten or at least rejected.

According to that view, Gehenna is not a compartment of Hades but is the same thing as the Lake of Fire.

According to that view, both the body and soul receive their punishment _after_ the resurrection.

The rich man in Luk 16:19-31 was suffering torment but, according to that view, it was not the torment of Gehenna.

So fire before and after the resurrection?

 

[Abaxvahl]

If we're united with God it will be for eternity because God is eternal. We'll probably be outside of time as we know it anyway because time is a dimension of this physical space-time universe. The question is, can there be an eternal existence separate from God and universalists would answer "no" to that. How can anything exist under its own power forever?

All Christians answer "no" to that. The separation from God I have found is most precisely a separation from the life of indwelling grace (God dwelling in the depths of your being), which is simply called "life." The eternal death/damnation is forever being separate from this, and so experience the fury and rage of God aptly described by various images (which in reality is the sinners own view of God's loving action on them, and in damnation God also willing such should take place with them). The only question I think is if anyone ends up like that.

 

[Andrewn]

So fire before and after the resurrection?

This is what continuous torture advocates believe.
According to that 2nd view I presented, there is no fire in Hades. Only after the resurrection in the LOF.

I'm only offering both views. You select one of them. .

 

[Clare73]

This is what continuous torture advocates believe.
According to that 2nd view I presented, there is no fire in Hades. Only after the resurrection in the LOF.
I'm only offering both views.
You select one of them. .

Thanks.

Guess I will have to go with "continuous torture" in light of Jesus presenting fire in Hades (Luke 16:23).

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

OK. I was saying that the fire and torment is internal and not external.
This should help:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[Hmm]

Are you implying the same kind of existence for Satan also?

Yes, I don't believe Satan exists under his own power. Do you think he has the ability to keep himself in existence forever? All existence is dependent on God.