Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

OK. I was saying that the fire and torment is internal and not external.
This should help:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

I still don't understand how the "lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were" can be internal and not external. Do you mean hell is a state of mind?

 

[Hmm]

All Christians answer "no" to that. The separation from God I have found is most precisely a separation from the life of indwelling grace (God dwelling in the depths of your being), which is simply called "life." The eternal death/damnation is forever being separate from this, and so experience the fury and rage of God aptly described by various images (which in reality is the sinners own view of God's loving action on them, and in damnation God also willing such should take place with them). The only question I think is if anyone ends up like that.

There's also the logical question of whether a loving God could take his "fury and rage" out on someone forever. The two things are incompatible to me.

 

[Abaxvahl]

There's also the logical question of whether a loving God could take his "fury and rage" out on someone forever. The two things are incompatible to me.

To me God's love might as well just be defined as everything He is, is like, and wills. So if He wills it (like the destruction of the Canaanites) it is love, justice, mercy, perfect goodness, etc, all at once. So the matter is only about figuring out what He wills, never of analyzing it to see if it's loving or not, since it by default is.

 

[Hmm]

To me God's love might as well just be defined as everything He is, is like, and wills. So if He wills it (like the destruction of the Canaanites) it is love, justice, mercy, perfect goodness, etc, all at once. So the matter is only about figuring out what He wills, never of analyzing it to see if it's loving or not, since it by default is.

To me, that would be putting God"s power above his love which can lead to contradictions such as ECT. I think God is love and he cannot will or do anything that is not loving directed. That's not to say that he can't punish us but any punishment will be corrective in nature and for our ultimate benefit even though it may be painful.

 

[Abaxvahl]

To me, that would be putting God"s power above his love which can lead to contradictions such as ECT. I think God is love and he cannot will or do anything that is not loving directed. That's not to say that he can't punish us but any punishment will be corrective in nature and for our ultimate benefit even though it may be painful.

How do you define love then?

 

[Hmm]

How do you define love then?

Just the usual meaning we use in every day life: wanting the best for the other person, kindness, fairness etc. We are commanded to love like this and we can succeed to a limited extent, while God is the supreme embodiment of perfect love.

If we were to torment or torture someone for a moment, let alone, eternity it would not be a loving act, it would be criminal assault and that would be true for God too which is why the concept of ECT is simply misguided. We are made in his image and we has given us the ability to know to some extent what he means by love. Love for him is not the opposite of love for us otherwise how can we ever enter a loving relationship with him?

 

[Abaxvahl]

Just the usual meaning we use in every day life: wanting the best for the other person, kindness, fairness etc. We are commanded to love like this and we can succeed to a limited extent, while God is the supreme embodiment of perfect love.

If we were to torment or torture someone for a moment, let alone, eternity it would not be a loving act, it would be criminal assault and that would be true for God too which is why the concept of ECT is simply misguided. We are made in his image and we has given us the ability to know to some extent what he means by love. Love for him is not the opposite of love for us otherwise how can we ever enter a loving relationship with him?

I see. ECT to me is just judgment from God that even the Saints participate in, for instance the rejoicing of the just and washing their hands in the blood of sinners when vindicated, or judging them in the Psalms. I do not see why God also does not do this and anyone who is just has God's life in them and are good/loving, so it can not be incompatible. The torment comes from being deprived of the life of God in you and letting this be/willing it to be can not be incompatible with God's love as many walk around the Earth for generations in that dead state, so having this state be eternal I do not see how it is incompatible with God's love since He is doing it currently. Not only that willing the death of someone even for us isn't in itself incompatible with loving them. So if there is a comparison it does not go for one or the other to me.

 

[Hmm]

he Saints participate in, for instance the rejoicing of the just and washing their hands in the blood of sinners when vindicated, or judging them in the Psalms. I do not see why God also does not do this

You may be right, I don't know, but I don't see the God who was perfectly revealed to us in Christ as someone who would rejoice while washing his hands in the blood of anyone. Perhaps that makes me a bad or a non-Christian, I don't know and don't care.

 

[Andrewn]

I see. ECT to me is just judgment from God that even the Saints participate in, for instance the rejoicing of the just and washing their hands in the blood of sinners when vindicated, or judging them in the Psalms. I do not see why God also does not do this and anyone who is just has God's life in them and are good/loving, so it can not be incompatible.

What a horrible picture of God and the saints you present as if it were literal. You can have your religion and I will have mine.

 

[Abaxvahl]

What a horrible picture of God and the saints you present as if it were literal. You can have your religion and I will have mine.

How do you interpret it? I view it this way in the light of what Jesus wrought on Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

[Der Alte]

There's also the logical question of whether a loving God could take his "fury and rage" out on someone forever. The two things are incompatible to me.

Where is it written that we mere mortals get to decide what is just, reasonable etc. for God to do?
If only some number less that 100% of a society are sinners do you think it is just, reasonable, proper to destroy 100% of that society; old, young, men, women, children, infants?
That is what God did in the time of Noah, In the time of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain.
And God commanded Israel to invade Canaan and destroy every living thing.
In North Korea if a person is convicted of a crime the NK government punishes 3 generations of his/her family. Is that not horrible?
God didn't just kill 3 generations he killed all generations.
People can twist scripture all they want but Jesus said these shall go away into "Aionios" eternal, ever lasting unending punishment. Not correction.
I have shown conclusively many times from scripture that "aonios" does mean eternal, everlasting unending.
And I have shown conclusively many times from scripture that "kolasis," translated "punishment" in the KJV, does mean punishment NOT "correction."

 

[Hmm]

In North Korea if a person is convicted of a crime the NK government punishes 3 generations of his/her family. Is that not horrible?
God didn't just kill 3 generations he killed all generations.

I'm not sure what you expect me to say. I just see Christ very differently than you.

 

[Clare73]

There's also the logical question of whether a loving God could take his "fury and rage" out on someone forever. The two things are incompatible to me.

Temporal logic doesn't apply to the eternal because there is no length in forever. It's all now.

 

[Clare73]

To me, that would be putting God"s power above his love which can lead to contradictions such as ECT. I think God is love and he cannot will or do anything that is not loving directed. That's not to say that he can't punish us but any punishment will be corrective in nature and for our ultimate benefit even though it may be painful.

Temporal logic does not apply to the infinite or to the eternal.

 

[Clare73]

You may be right, I don't know, but I don't see the God who was perfectly revealed to us in Christ as someone who would rejoice while washing his hands in the blood of anyone. Perhaps that makes me a bad or a non-Christian, I don't know and don't care.

A better apprehension of the nature of evil would help.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure what you expect me to say.
I just see Christ very differently than you.

Seeing him as he is in light of all Scripture doesn't seem to be a goal.

That choice comes at a price.

 

[Hmm]

A better apprehension of the nature of evil would help.

Well, think about the human experience of extreme evil and suffering such as at Auschwitz. The experience of the victims there was often that it stripped them of any meaning to life. This makes the notion of ECT troubling to say the least because hell in this concept seems to be the epitome of this kind of suffering depriving the victim not only of whatever goodness in their life there may have been - and there's always some goodness, Hitler loved his dog for example - but also of any hope for future good. Such hopelessly is psychologically ruinous. When Auschwitz was liberated for instance, the inmates did not on the whole.leap around celebrating, they were deeply traumatised and this often lasted for the whole of their life. So how can ECT be thought of as a good way to treat a human being made in the image of God? Is Jesus really no better than Hitler?

 

[Clare73]

Well, think about the human experience of extreme evil and suffering such as at Auschwitz. The experience of the victims there was often that it stripped them of any meaning to life. This makes the notion of ECT troubling to say the least because hell in this concept seems to be the epitome of this kind of suffering depriving the victim not only of whatever goodness in their life there may have been - and there's always some goodness, Hitler loved his dog for example - but also of any hope for future good. Such hopelessly is psychologically ruinous. When Auschwitz was liberated for instance, the inmates did not on the whole.leap around celebrating, they were deeply traumatised and this often lasted for the whole of their life. So how can ECT be thought of as a good way to treat a human being made in the image of God? Is Jesus really no better than Hitler?

The flawed human contra-Biblical UR doctrine fails to apprehend the nature of evil in the condemned wicked, thinking they can be "persuaded" to submit to their enemy (Romans 5:10), and failing to realize that the same sun which softens butter also hardens clay; i.e., the fire only hardens them in their evil (Revelation 16:9-11, Revelation 16:21), it never softens them.

Too much earthly human thinking rather than divine thinking in your false human UR doctrine.

 

[o_mlly]

I think God is love and he cannot will or do anything that is not loving directed.

Does love move the Lover to dominate the will of the loved one? If we choose "not God" then what can our Lover do?

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous,
it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own
interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood
over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but
rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,
endures all things.
Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:4-13).​

 

[Lazarus Short]

How do you interpret it? I view it this way in the light of what Jesus wrought on Jerusalem in 70AD.

The pagan Romans wrought on Jerusalem in 70 AD - Jesus the Christ did not do it, but He warned the inhabitants of the city of what the future held for them. It was their own fault.