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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Der Alte

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I'm not sure what you expect me to say. I just see Christ very differently than you.
You claim that a loving, forgiving, benevolent etc. God would not, could not punish anyone forever.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Noah and his family?
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Lot and his family.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He commanded the nation Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thing?
-Why didn't the loving, forgiving, benevolent God just forgive them as you believe he will forgive all the evil people at judgement day?
 
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Hmm

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You claim that a loving, forgiving, benevolent etc. God would not, could not punish anyone forever.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Noah and his family?
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Lot and his family.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He commanded the nation Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thin?
-Why didn't the loving, forgiving, benevolent God just forgive them as you believe he will forgive all the evil people at judgement day?

Your questions are loaded. The truth is, He didn't commit the crimes you are accusing Him of. As I said, I see Jesus very differently than you.and I don't know how to engage with you at all. I think the best strategy is to.agree to disagree.

Edit: typo correction.
 
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Abaxvahl

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The pagan Romans wrought on Jerusalem in 70 AD - Jesus the Christ did not do it, but He warned the inhabitants of the city of what the future held for them. It was their own fault.

I see this as no different than when He previously wielded Assyria against Israel. It was their own fault then too but also a judgment. Matthew 24 details it and uses similar language to the judgments of God on a nation/city in the OT except applied to Jesus. But this is not an eschatology thread...
 
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Der Alte

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Your questions are loaded. The truth is, He didn't commit the crimes you are accusing Him of. As I said, I see Jesus very differently than you.and I don't know how to engage with you at all. I think the best strategy is to.agree to disagree.
Edit: typo correction.
Please show me where I used the word "crime?"
I summarized two instances when God, Himself, destroyed thousands of people first with water, the second with fire and when God commanded the nation of Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thing. In all three events: men, women, children, infants, old, young were killed.
Genesis 6:13 - Genesis 7:23 Genesis 19:24-29, Numbers 21:3 Numbers 34-35 et al.,
You have read the OT haven't you?
 
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Der Alte

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I refer you to the post I sent some moments ago. We see Jesus so differently that it's best to agree to disagree. I don't know how I can say that more clearly.
1 Peter 3:15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:​
Do as you will but that will not deter me from pointing out error where ever, when ever I see it. Which as I have observed will be often.
 
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Andrewn

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I see this as no different than when He previously wielded Assyria against Israel. It was their own fault then too but also a judgment. Matthew 24 details it and uses similar language to the judgments of God on a nation/city in the OT except applied to Jesus. But this is not an eschatology thread...
You speak like a Fundamentalist. Have you always been Catholic? Do you watch a lot of Christian TV?
 
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Abaxvahl

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You speak like a Fundamentalist. Have you always been Catholic? Do you watch a lot of Christian TV?

How do I speak like a Fundamentalist? That is incredibly vague to me. I have not always been Catholic and I do not watch a lot of Christian TV, or really any.
 
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eleos1954

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

Jesus died to save us FROM on our sin ..... not IN our sin.

When one receives Jesus then through the Holy Spirit He will help them to overcome sin .... this is a life-long process. We will stumble and fall at times bust Jesus is always there to help us get up and begin again.

God is not a monster .... God is love.

Love is putting others before self of which Jesus (who is God) did. John 3:16

His Word is quite clear .... some will be saved .... some will be lost.
 
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Andrewn

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Jesus died to save us FROM on our sin ..... not IN our sin.
Is there such a thing as non-Christians who try to live righteous lives, and perhaps try to worship God with the wrong image? Do they deserve an infinity of torment?

But ECT advocates repeatedly said that "human" logic has no place in their thinking.
 
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Hmm

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His Word is quite clear

If that was true, why do we have equally intelligent and informed scholars still arguing about it some 2,000 years on?
 
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Saint Steven

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I understand what you're saying. Edom still met destruction though, ultimately. Sure, the end for an unbeliever may not be as bad as the Bible put it. God could merely choose to wipe them painlessly from existence. Like Edom though, ultimately, one who does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior will not see the Kingdom of God. How God chooses to actually do it is his prerogative.
Will everyone who passes from this life have the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ? (since that is your criteria for salvation)

Saint Steven said:
You might find this interesting.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.
 
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Saint Steven

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God is not a monster .... God is love.

Love is putting others before self of which Jesus (who is God) did. John 3:16

His Word is quite clear .... some will be saved .... some will be lost.
The beginning of your quote above says, "God is not a monster ...."
The end of your quote says, ".... some will be lost."

You also say, ".... God is love." and ".... some will be saved ...."
If God is love, why are only "some" being saved?
The balance of "some", is most. So, the claim that ".... some will be lost." is in error.
If only "some" are saved, then MOST will be lost. Is that love? (or poor planning?)

Explain what happens to those you say will be lost, in the context of God NOT being a monster.
 
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Hmm

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But ECT advocates repeatedly said that "human" logic has no place in their thinking.

They have to because if a person tortured another person it would be a crime. It's a very odd conception of God to believe that we have a higher moral standard for ourselves than God does of Himself.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Will everyone who passes from this life have the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ? (since that is your criteria for salvation)

They have all the opportunity to accept Christ while living and awake. After one dies, the next thing that they are around for is the Great Judgement after Armegeddon. Nowhere in the bible does it make any time for argument or anything. We are awoken, taken before Christ, and if our names are written in the Lambs Book of Life we are saved. If not, we are thrown in the Lake of Fire. Whether for eternity or just to completely perish does not matter. What does matter is that nowhere in Revelation 20 nor in Revelation 21 does it say that they will only be burned for a little bit and then welcome into Heaven. It says that this punishment is the second death, the perishing that John 3:16 warns against. It's not "my criteria" it is the Bible's.
 
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Saint Steven

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They have all the opportunity to accept Christ while living and awake. ...
There are countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus Christ. What about them?
 
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ozso

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You claim that a loving, forgiving, benevolent etc. God would not, could not punish anyone forever.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Noah and his family?
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He killed thousands; men, women children, infants, old, young etc. except for Lot and his family.
-Where was the loving, forgiving, benevolent God when He commanded the nation Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thing?
-Why didn't the loving, forgiving, benevolent God just forgive them as you believe he will forgive all the evil people at judgement day?

How does that come remotely close to people being tormented for eternity?
 
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Hmm

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They have all the opportunity to accept Christ while living and awake. After one dies, the next thing that they are around for is the Great Judgement after Armegeddon. Nowhere in the bible does it make any time for argument or anything. We are awoken, taken before Christ, and if our names are written in the Lambs Book of Life we are saved. If not, we are thrown in the Lake of Fire. Whether for eternity or just to completely perish does not matter. What does matter is that nowhere in Revelation 20 nor in Revelation 21 does it say that they will only be burned for a little bit and then welcome into Heaven. It says that this punishment is the second death, the perishing that John 3:16 warns against. It's not "my criteria" it is the Bible's.

No, it's your interpretation of the Bible and one that isn't shared by many people who, I imagine, are as equally intelligent and informed as you and yet come to a totally different conclusion. Strange eh?
 
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