Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

Romans 1:18-23

That is the stock answer. But it says nothing about salvation. Only that the creator is revealed in the creation. Is that understanding enough to save a person?

My question below remains unanswered.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There are countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus Christ. What about them?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

That is the stock answer. But it says nothing about salvation. Only that the creator is revealed in the creation. Is that understanding enough to save a person?

My question below remains unanswered.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There are countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus Christ. What about them?

Acts 4:12

 

[2PhiloVoid]

They have to because if a person tortured another person it would be a crime. It's a very odd conception of God to believe that we have a higher moral standard for ourselves than God does of Himself.

So, is there a "right" conception of God? Is there a Supreme Ethics that we all must recognize, emanating from some metaphysical drop point out of the Ether?

I have to ask since it seems to me that your rhetorical flourish here mirrors some of those which various atheists have spouted over the past few years here on CF (and elsewhere), in both the Ethics section of CF and the now closed Christian Apologetics section.

 

[eleos1954]

Is there such a thing as non-Christians who try to live righteous lives, and perhaps try to worship God with the wrong image? Do they deserve an infinity of torment?

But ECT advocates repeatedly said that "human" logic has no place in their thinking.

There is no such thing as infinity of torment as some teach.

righteous lives - according to who's standard? Theirs or Gods?

God is Love .... Love is putting others before yourself .... easier said than done.

There are none who have not some consciousness of right and wrong. Paul says, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the written law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves; which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.” Romans 2:14, 15.

It is not possible, by the light of nature alone, to know the fullness of the truth as it is in Jesus, but there is not a man upon earth who does not have enough knowledge of what is right to justly condemn him if he does not profit by that knowledge.

It is true that men may “not like to retain God in their knowledge,” and may ignore the good and practice the bad so persistently as to completely deaden all sensibility, and be given over “to a mind void of judgment” (Romans 1:28); but the fact that this is done only proves the truth of the statement that all men have naturally a certain amount of knowledge of right and wrong.

There will be some who are saved that never heard of Jesus ... God looks at the heart. He is the only one who knows it.

The standard is in everyone's heart whether they choose to attribute that standard to God or not.

No one is righteous ... Jesus (who is God) will impute His righteousness as He chooses ... only God knows a person's heart.

 

[eleos1954]

If that was true, why do we have equally intelligent and informed scholars still arguing about it some 2,000 years on?

Different interpretations of scripture.

 

[Hmm]

An interesting article here on Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev's recent speech at the Catholic Church's first World Congress in support Christian universalism.

The Congress Catches Fire!

To quote from the article:

"In an amazing, even surprising ecumenical moment in the Catholic Church's first World Congress on Divine Mercy, Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev, bishop of Vienna and Austria as well as temporary administrator of the Diocese of Budapest and Hungary, took Divine Mercy to its logical conclusion. God is Love, all He created and sustains is always loved by Him. Even the creation that rejects Him continues in existence by His love. This unfathomable Divine Mercy can even make hell* "Gehenna," temporary, according to Bishop Hilarion, who spoke on Day 3 of the Congress (Friday, April 5) at St. John Lateran Basilica.
...
Saint Isaac believed that knowing the merciful God in this way would cause more love of God in people, not less."

 

[eleos1954]

The beginning of your quote above says, "God is not a monster ...."
The end of your quote says, ".... some will be lost."

You also say, ".... God is love." and ".... some will be saved ...."
If God is love, why are only "some" being saved?
The balance of "some", is most. So, the claim that ".... some will be lost." is in error.
If only "some" are saved, then MOST will be lost. Is that love? (or poor planning?)

Explain what happens to those you say will be lost, in the context of God NOT being a monster.

There are those who would not be happy in heaven (example: lucifer and the 1/3 fallen angels). The lost chose their own way rather than the ways of the Lord. Self-centered verses other-centered.

Our earth is in a uproar .... someday complete peace will come (when Jesus returns)

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The lost will be destroyed .... never to exist again.

With the destruction of the wicked, the same fire will purify the earth. No trace of sin will remain. From the ashes of the cleansing fire God will create the new earth.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10.

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. . . . Behold, I will make all things new.” Revelation 21:1, 5.

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14, 15.

When the last particle of sin has been consumed, then will the prophecy be fulfilled, “And they shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:3.

The evil work of Satan is ended for ever. No more temptation, no more sin. God’s tried and faithful people will abide in the security and peace of the new earth for eternity. The earth is recreated to its former perfection.

 

[ozso]

An interesting article here on Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev's recent speech at the Catholic Church's first World Congress in support Christian universalism.

The Congress Catches Fire!

To quote from the article:

"In an amazing, even surprising ecumenical moment in the Catholic Church's first World Congress on Divine Mercy, Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev, bishop of Vienna and Austria as well as temporary administrator of the Diocese of Budapest and Hungary, took Divine Mercy to its logical conclusion. God is Love, all He created and sustains is always loved by Him. Even the creation that rejects Him continues in existence by His love. This unfathomable Divine Mercy can even make hell* "Gehenna," temporary, according to Bishop Hilarion, who spoke on Day 3 of the Congress (Friday, April 5) at St. John Lateran Basilica.
...
Saint Isaac believed that knowing the merciful God in this way would cause more love of God in people, not less."

One thing I've learned is that Orthodoxy is a lot closer to UR than Protestantism.

 

[Hmm]

One thing I've learned is that Orthodoxy is a lot closer to UR than Protestantism.

Yes, they took more of a lead from the universalist Gregory of Nyssa rather than Augustine, who couldn't speak Greek and actually said he despised the language, as the Western church did.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, they took more of a lead from the universalist Gregory of Nyssa rather than Augustine, who couldn't speak Greek and actually said he despised the language, as the Western church did.

... this is why I arbitrarily "cut off" my acceptance of ANY top authority as emanating from any Christian voices after the first 100 years (or the first few generations) after Christ. There's just too much back and forth about this or that among the 'faithful' in history afterward.

Still, that doesn't mean we can't all learn some things or be inspired by some of the things that various Christian leaders and thinkers have said through the ages after the apostles left the scene. We just don't have to take what post-apostolic voices have said as "Absolute Gospel Truth."

Whoops! Did I step on everyone's toes? My apologies.

 

[Der Alte]

Is there such a thing as non-Christians who try to live righteous lives, and perhaps try to worship God with the wrong image? Do they deserve an infinity of torment?
But ECT advocates repeatedly said that "human" logic has no place in their thinking.

@Hmm
The last sentence first. Where is it written that we, mere mortals, get to decide what is just, fair, reasonable, etc. for God?
By our human standards what God did in the time of Noah many folks would say was not just, fair, reasonable etc.
God destroyed 1000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old by drowning.
Was God just, fair, reasonable etc. when He destroyed 100s maybe 1,000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old by fire in the time of Lot?
Was God just, fair, reasonable when He commanded Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thing, 100s maybe 1,000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old?
When Kim, Jong Il supreme leader of North Korea died citizens were required to mourn publicly and if some official decided someone was not showing enough grief that person was punished
In north Korea when anyone is sentenced for a crime they punish the criminal and three generations of his/her family.
And I think most reasonable, rational people consider that horrible but God did not just kill 3 generations but everyone.

 

[Hmm]

Does love move the Lover to dominate the will of the loved one? If we choose "not God" then what can our Lover do?

Of course you can't make somebody love you, and I don't think anyone is arguing that. Love.for God is like faith, it's a gift from God. Grace comes before love just as it does with faith and it solicits it. So it's not a work, it's something that grace works in us.

The universalist view is that God will work by his grace so that everyone eventually has that love (and faith and trust) response. It has nothing to do with domination because loving God is what will make us the most happy. And either God gives this love and faith to everyone, to no-one or, Calvinist-like, gives it to a random few. I don't see any other option.

 

[o_mlly]

And either God gives this love and faith to everyone, to no-one or, Calvinist-like, gives it to a random few. I don't see any other option.

God offers His love to everyone but His gift must be freely accepted. Else His love remains unrequited and the unification willed by the Lover for the beloved does not happen.

 

[Hmm]

God offers His love to everyone but His gift must be freely accepted. Else His love remains unrequited and the unification willed by the Lover for the beloved does not happen.

You may be right but it's not my personal experience. I have a love for God but that love is not something I "freely accepted". I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. It came as a gift and I didn't have to freely accept it any more than I had to accept my love for my family, friends, dog or cheese on toast.

 

[Andrewn]

There are countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus Christ. What about them?

And a lot of people who have been abused by Christian clergy and lay people. And people to whom the Gospel was misrepresented. And, and, and.

No point in talking logic.

 

[Saint Steven]

Acts 4:12

So, countless billions who never heard the name of Jesus will burn forever with no hope of escape?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That is the stock answer. But it says nothing about salvation. Only that the creator is revealed in the creation. Is that understanding enough to save a person?

My question below remains unanswered.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There are countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus Christ. What about them?

 

[Saint Steven]

There are those who would not be happy in heaven...

If it's anything like going to most churches, I can see why.

 

[Andrewn]

There is no such thing as infinity of torment as some teach.

You believe in eternal annihilation. I guess this is a step better than ECT.

There will be some who are saved that never heard of Jesus ... God looks at the heart. He is the only one who knows it. The standard is in everyone's heart whether they choose to attribute that standard to God or not. No one is righteous ... Jesus (who is God) will impute His righteousness as He chooses ... only God knows a person's heart.

I think so, too. But I also think that they will come to know Jesus and worship Him in the afterlife.

 

[ozso]

@Hmm
The last sentence first. Where is it written that we, mere mortals, get to decide what is just, fair, reasonable, etc. for God?

Their argument isn't against God - it's against Der Alte's interpretation.

By our human standards what God did in the time of Noah many folks would say was not just, fair, reasonable etc.
God destroyed 1000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old by drowning.
Was God just, fair, reasonable etc. when He destroyed 100s maybe 1,000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old by fire in the time of Lot?
Was God just, fair, reasonable when He commanded Israel to invade Canaan and kill every living thing, 100s maybe 1,000s of people; men, women, children, infants, young, old?
When Kim, Jong Il supreme leader of North Korea died citizens were required to mourn publicly and if some official decided someone was not showing enough grief that person was punished
In north Korea when anyone is sentenced for a crime they punish the criminal and three generations of his/her family.
And I think most reasonable, rational people consider that horrible but God did not just kill 3 generations but everyone.

How do those examples come anywhere close to the doctrine of everlasting torment?

 

[Saint Steven]

The lost will be destroyed .... never to exist again.

That makes you an Annihilationist.

What does it mean for someone to be "lost"?