Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

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Posted previously.
This is the way the early church understood Philippians 2:11. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] the First Apology Chap. LII. — Certain Fulfilment of Prophecy.
… For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonored and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” (Eze_37:7, Eze_37:8; Isa_45:24) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.” (Zec_12:3-14; Isa_63:17, Isa_64:11)
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Chap. X. — Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” (Eph_1:10) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven” and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” (Phi_2:10, Phi_2:11) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” (Eph_6:12) and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.​

 

[Ceallaigh]

This is the way the early church understood Philippians 2:11. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Chap. X. — Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” (Eph_1:10) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven” and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” (Phi_2:10, Phi_2:11) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” (Eph_6:12) and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] the First Apology Chap. LII. — Certain Fulfilment of Prophecy.

… For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonored and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” (Eze_37:7, Eze_37:8; Isa_45:24) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.” (Zec_12:3-14; Isa_63:17, Isa_64:11)

@Der Alte What's the source of these English translations?

 

[misput]

"So, countless billions who never heard the name of Jesus will burn forever with no hope of escape?"

No, the scripture teaches we are all judged according to what we know or have, this is perfect justice and even this is tempered with mercy according to our reaction to it. There is no magic in the name of Jesus, it goes much deeper than that.

 

[o_mlly]

You may be right but it's not my personal experience. I have a love for God but that love is not something I "freely accepted". I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. It came as a gift and I didn't have to freely accept it any more than I had to accept my love for my family, friends, dog or cheese on toast.

? One does not accept the gift they give; only the gifts they receive.

Only God is good (Mark 10:18). If to love God is good then the movement of one's soul to love God comes first from God (John 15:5).

 

[Saint Steven]

You may be right but it's not my personal experience. I have a love for God but that love is not something I "freely accepted". I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. It came as a gift and I didn't have to freely accept it any more than I had to accept my love for my family, friends, dog or cheese on toast.

Great post, thanks.

If love for God is seen as a prerequisite, then it isn't genuine. I like the question you inferred, what is the source for this love? It's not something we "accept", but rather an expression of our good pleasure with it. Especially the cheese on toast. - lol (so satisfying)

And I think the cheese on toast, though a bit humorous, is a fitting picture of the satisfaction of all of humankind in the restoration and redemption of all things. Cheese on toast being what I would call a comfort food, which relates to home, the longing of every human heart, to be safe and warm and feed. The ultimate expression of love and the fulfillment of human need.

Why wouldn't God's story for humankind end this way? What's not to like?

 

[Hmm]

? One does not accept the gift they give; only the gifts they receive.

I don't know why you say this. I've didn't say anything about accepting the gift you give which, as you say, doesn't make sense.

The point I was trying to make was this. I agree with you that we need some sort of response to God's love. But this isn't a moral work so that if you love God, you're a good person and go to heaven and conversely you go to hell if you don't love him. We can't make ourselves love God so it's not a work.

I think the universalist take on this is that God made us in his image and so we are designed to love him. It is in our nature to do so. But with the Fall we have become disconnected from our true nature and often vacillate between doing good and doing wrong, and between loving God and not loving Him. We only understand things partially now but when God removes all our ignorance, our pride and all our selfish delusions we will be restored to how God intended us to be and we will then love him freely because it is our nature to do so - this is the response that we make, it's something that we will willingly and naturally do. Something like this is probably true for all Christian traditions - the difference with universalism is it says that God will apply this restoration to everyone. He will not give up on anyone. This is not God forcing us to love him as was your original comment, it's bringing us to up to be the best person we can be, the person that he created us to be. Wanting the best for someone and helping them become the best person they can be and to achieve their full potential is the very definition of love.

Only God is good (Mark 10:18). If to love God is good then the movement of one's soul to love God comes from God (John 15:5).

Agreed.

 

[Saint Steven]

The point I was trying to make was this. I agree with you that we need some sort of response to God's love. But this isn't a moral work so that if you love God, you're a good person and go to heaven and conversely you go to hell if you don't love him. We can't make ourselves love God so it's not a work.

I think the universalist take on this is that God made us in his image and so we are designed to love him. It is in our nature to do so.

Yes.
Our love for God is like the love of a small child for their parent. Very interesting to see the way small children manifest their love for their parents. Lavishing them with hugs and kisses for no apparent reason other than spontaneous displays of affection from the heart.

Even as an adult believer I like to envision my relationship with the Father as an open lap that I am welcome to sit in whenever I want. I reach up to indicate my intention, and he hoists me up. A great place for a peaceful nap.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Wanting the best for someone and helping them become the best person they can be and to achieve their full potential is the very definition of love.

Right. That is at the core of UR.

One of the arguments for UR that I often make is that God requires us to love our enemies. Jesus even tells us that this is godly behavior. (Matthew 5:48)

A similar argument just occurred to me in reading your posts. God also requires us to respond positively to human need. And like your quote above, "Wanting the best for someone and helping them become the best person they can be..."

To see someone thirsty, hungry, naked, or injured requires our attention to help them in their need. Yet some expect God to deal harshly, citing hatred for God, with those not currently in the Body of Christ.

If we are required to love our enemies and to meet the needs of those in want, how much more would God respond positively to these situations?

 

[Hmm]

Right. That is at the core of UR.

One of the arguments for UR that I often make is that God requires us to love our enemies. Jesus even tells us that this is godly behavior. (Matthew 5:48)

A similar argument just occurred to me in reading your posts. God also requires us to respond positively to human need. And like your quote above, "Wanting the best for someone and helping them become the best person they can be..."

To see someone thirsty, hungry, naked, or injured requires our attention to help them in their need. Yet some expect God to deal harshly, citing hatred for God, with those not currently in the Body of Christ.

If we are required to love our enemies and to meet the needs of those in want, how much more would God respond positively to these situations?

Yes, I find the power of universalism is that it naturally brings all these biblical strands and aspects of God together. God is love and his justice is merciful and his mercy is just etc. He's not in opposition with himself as we usually are with ourselves.so we need to stop projecting.

 

[Der Alte]

@Der Alte What's the source of these English translations?

I have the standard collection in my Bible program ESword which OBTW is free. I have been using it for more than 20 years.

Here are links to two online collections.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

Early Church Fathers

 

[eleos1954]

That makes you an Annihilationist.

What does it mean for someone to be "lost"?

Annihilation - is what His Word teaches. God is not a torturer ... there will be those who will choose not to turn from sin and doing evil .... and yes ... in the very end they will be destroyed and never to exist again .... in order to eliminate sin and He gives them over to their choices.

Luke 15:1–2 is the framework for understanding three parables of action and words of mercy — the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin and the Lost Sons.

 

[Saint Steven]

Luke 15:1–2 is the framework for understanding three parables of action and words of mercy — the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin and the Lost Sons.

That's ironic.
The "lost" parables are all UR texts. The lost are found.
And the lost and found is the framework of UR.

 

[misput]

Right. That is at the core of UR.

One of the arguments for UR that I often make is that God requires us to love our enemies. Jesus even tells us that this is godly behavior. (Matthew 5:48)

A similar argument just occurred to me in reading your posts. God also requires us to respond positively to human need. And like your quote above, "Wanting the best for someone and helping them become the best person they can be..."

To see someone thirsty, hungry, naked, or injured requires our attention to help them in their need. Yet some expect God to deal harshly, citing hatred for God, with those not currently in the Body of Christ.

If we are required to love our enemies and to meet the needs of those in want, how much more would God respond positively to these situations?

It is not the thirsty, hungry, naked, or injured, that anyone expects God to deal harshly with (we do not even know if they are in the body of Christ for sure) it is the ones who are causing or turning their back on them that we expect God to deal harshly with.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's ironic.
The "lost" parables are all UR texts. The lost are found.
And the lost and found is the framework of UR.

Further, if they are lost/annihilated, how does God ever become All in all? No damnationist or annihilationist has yet to deliver a decent answer to this dilemma.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It is not the thirsty, hungry, naked, or injured, that anyone expects God to deal harshly with (we do not even know if they are in the body of Christ for sure) it is the ones who are causing or turning their back on them that we expect God to deal harshly with.

"Harshly" does not necessarily mean ECT or annihilation. Again, God must bring the lost/wicked/reprobate to reconciliation if He is to become All in all.

 

[Saint Steven]

... God is not a torturer ...

Aren't you accusing God of incinerating live humans?

 

[misput]

"Harshly" does not necessarily mean ECT or annihilation. Again, God must bring the lost/wicked/reprobate to reconciliation if He is to become All in all.

Saying "God must" is a pretty tall statement, we do not know what God must do.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Saying "God must" is a pretty tall statement, we do not know what God must do.

It's simple logic: If God intends to become All in all, and He has stated that He will be, then He must refrain from subjecting people to "hell" or annihilation. He describes Himself as a Refiner of Men, but that does not mean that He uses literal fire, the destructive kind. When we do see Godfire, whether at the Burning Bush or on the Day of Pentecost, it is not destructive. At the most, it burns away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble. God also describes Himself as Soap, and the gentleness of soap cannot be misinterpreted.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I have the standard collection in my Bible program ESword which OBTW is free. I have been using it for more than 20 years.

Here are links to two online collections.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

Early Church Fathers

NT translations are thoroughly scrutinized, but I wonder how much translations of ECF writings are. Not that I'm balking at what you posted. But I started wondering about that.

 

[Saint Steven]

NT translations are thoroughly scrutinized, but I wonder how much translations of ECF writings are. Not that I'm balking at what you posted. But I started wondering about that.

They didn't pass muster for the canon. Maybe that's all we need to know? - lol