Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Job 33:6]

Part of me thinks that universalism would resolve the whole dilemma with the problem of evil observed in the Calvinism versus arminianism debate.

If God saved all, and if salvation were far greater than the pains of the world, then just as sin entered the world through one man, and all were understand, so too truly would all be saved through an in one man, Jesus Christ. God would then truly save all whom his son was sent to save, And then being predestined to an ultimate salvation would align with this concept.

But in the end, scripture has verses about hell, and so the idea of universalism seems to be unbiblical.

 

[Albion]

I see that as an inaccurate appraisal. Universalists appeal to scripture and the writings of early church fathers, rather than just making stuff up that sounds good to them.

To some degree, you are right. However, they do not go with the testimony of Scripture, preferring to make a few inconclusive verses "proof texts" for their view while ignoring the weight of Scripture which very much goes the other way. In addition to that, we hear--yes we do--a lot of comments saying what the title of this thread says ("What's not to like?") and in other ways using some variety of the following as their argument: "I choose to think that God is love and does not throw away the people he's made, etc., etc. etc."

So, in sum, you have a point, but only to the extent that no generalization includes every last person.

 

[Clare73]

Part of me thinks that universalism would resolve the whole dilemma with the problem of evil observed in the Calvinism versus arminianism debate.

If God saved all, and if salvation were far greater than the pains of the world, then just as sin entered the world through one man, and all were understand, so too truly would all be saved through an in one man, Jesus Christ. God would then truly save all whom his son was sent to save, And then being predestined to an ultimate salvation would align with this concept.

But in the end, scripture has verses about hell, and so the idea of universalism seems to be unbiblical.

Indeed. . .
Matthew 25:46--eternal punishment (see post #497, this thread) and
2 Thessalonians 1:9--everlasting destruction (ruin).

 

[Hillsage]

How can you say that when the courtesy shown in this thread proves otherwise? /s

This thread, admittedly has done better, than the hundred or so I've been on here, since 2009. So my generalization was meant for this whole website AND for so many different threads, other than 'UR/Ultimate Reconciliation or UNIVERSALISM' (I prefer UR) where I've been called everything from heretic and unbeliever to just someone deceived and unknowledgable.

So I'm sorry if you think I'm just pigeonholing this one thread.

 

[Hmm]

So I'm sorry if you think I'm just pigeonholing this one thread.

I don't think that at all - the /s after my remark was meant to indicate sarcasm! I think the allegations of heresy etc on this thread has been a disgrace. But it just confirms to me that universalism is right so I don't mind

 

[Hillsage]

I don't think that at all - the /s after my remark was meant to indicate sarcasm! I think the allegations of heresy etc on this thread has been a disgrace. But it just confirms to me that universalism is right so I don't mind

/S is sarcasm????? OK, I'm 72 and that's new. And who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Oh wait, I've said that ,to myself, a 1,000 times on this website since 09.

 

[BNR32FAN]

JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

To this my reply is 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth. Yes He gave them the power or authority to become children of God but that doesn’t mean they are destined to become children of God, nor does it mean that they can’t fall away later after they have become a child of God. Romans 2:4-5 Paul says that thru God’s kindness and patience He is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness and unwillingness to repent they are storing up His righteous judgement on judgement day. In John 15:1-7 Jesus made it perfectly clear that even His faithful 11 apostles were capable of falling away. 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul also made it clear that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and as a result Christ would deny them. We know for a fact that Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were called by God and they were in Christ. We also know for a fact that Paul and Timothy were also called by God and we’re in Christ as well. So if we know that they can choose to turn away from Him then we know that they have free will over their salvation. Not everyone who has received God’s grace will remain in Christ. We know this because Jesus specifically said this in John 15:6 and those who failed to remain in Him couldn’t have come to Him in the first place unless they were drawn by The Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't think I would have been saved if I believed UR was true. I didn't want to be a Christian you know, until I believed I was not going to enter heaven. First then I turned to God and was saved. So I believe there are others in the position I was. If I had believed UR was true, I think I would have stayed my course in Buddhism, in the religion I loved.

So, you are a Christian out of fear of hell?
This is the problem with Damnationism.
That may be as dangerous as what you are claiming about UR.
Did you say some magic words to get out of hell free? (mild sarcasm)

 

[ozso]

To some degree, you are right. However, they do not go with the testimony of Scripture, preferring to make a few inconclusive verses "proof texts" for their view while ignoring the weight of Scripture which very much goes the other way. In addition to that, we hear--yes we do--a lot of comments saying what the title of this thread says ("What's not to like?") and in other ways using some variety of the following as their argument: "I choose to think that God is love and does not throw away the people he's made, etc., etc. etc."

So, in sum, you have a point, but only to the extent that no generalization includes every last person.

What you're calling the weight of scripture isn't ignored. I've seen it addressed. And pretty satisfactorily as well. I'm not saying I'm positive they're right, but from what I've seen all together no stone has been left unturned. From what I've seen they've offered more substance than you seem to be giving them credit for. I've really enjoyed how you've been amicable and objective in addressing the subject thus far. But I'm sensing maybe you're beginning to get frustrated at this point and starting to use typical ad hominem dismissals like, "I choose to think that God is love and does not throw away the people he's made, etc., etc. etc."

 

[Jipsah]

I'm confused as why people are forgetting that even John 3:16 states that one must believe in Jesus in order to receive eternal life. Otherwise they will receive death.

Death is one thing, ECT is quite another.

 

[ozso]

Rejecting in Scripture what we "do not like" is the road to which I am referring.

What I've seen is rejection of the interpretation of some scripture. What you're implying is disagreeing with the interpretation you hold to will send people to hell. That's trying to use fear to get people to drop their interpretation and adopt your interpretation.

 

[Jipsah]

There is not one verse of scripture which clearly states that all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that effect.

Just by way of review:

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Yeah, I think the stock response is "That's not what he was talking about!"

Right.

 

[Jipsah]

It is God who saves. And there are no obstacles to salvation with God. Remember, no one is saved by theology or doctrines. Only God can save.

Wait, what? But He can't just go around saving anyone He wants to, can He? I don't think that's allowed. I mean, He can save me, or you, but no way He can save that miserable old man Kim down the road.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Death is one thing, ECT is quite another.

Universal salvation is what the OP was addressing.

 

[ozso]

How else would all of us get along in the hereafter, since we sure don't here.

I think of it as sibling rivalry. My older brother and I didn't get along growing up and fought a lot, but would have given each other a kidney. And now that we are grown up, we get along quite well.

 

[ozso]

Wait, what? But He can't just go around saving anyone He wants to, can He? I don't think that's allowed. I mean, He can save me, or you, but no way He can save that miserable old man Kim down the road.

Even though I or you were that miserable old man Kim down the road when we were saved.

 

[Jipsah]

UR takes seriously the fact that Jesus is God. And when He said, "Forgive them, Father, for they do not know what they're doing." He really meant that his enemies be forgiven.

Yes! No hint of a future change of heart where God says "Aw, forget that 'forgive them', business. If they reject me they're gonna fry forever!"

UR also takes seriously that God is powerful and id He wants "that all people be saved and come to know the truth" then He will be able to accomplish his desire.

Exactly! God is God, for crying out loud! He spoke the universe and everything in it into being. If He wants everyone to be saved, which apparently He does ("The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.) then everybody is gonna be saved, end of. None of this "Oh, poor God, there's just nothing He can do" rubbish. This is God we're talking about! If He wants it, it's going to happen.

An engineer who builds products of which 95% ends up in the garbage is considered a failure. God is quite capable of fixing the products of his hands.

Tell me about it! Worse yet if that engineer knows even as he's designing it that the product is going to fail in an apalling manner a majority of the time. Yet that's what we're supposed to believe about God. He can't make His own creation do what He wants it to do. Again, rubbish.

 

[Jipsah]

I don't think I would have been saved if I believed UR was true.

Sounds like "Believe in Christ or we'll kill you" would make a good evangelism technique, then.

 

[Jipsah]

Even though I or you were that miserable old man Kim down the road when we were saved.

Who, me? I'm kinda like this guy:

"You know just the other night these cops pulled me over outside a bar
They turned on their lights and ordered me out of my car
Man, I was only kidding when I called 'em a couple of dicks
But still they made me do the stupid human tricks
Now I'm stuck in this cell with a bunch of dumb hicks
And I still don't why
I think I'm an alright guy"

 

[ozso]

I don't think I would have been saved if I believed UR was true. I didn't want to be a Christian you know, until I believed I was not going to enter heaven. First then I turned to God and was saved. So I believe there are others in the position I was. If I had believed UR was true, I think I would have stayed my course in Buddhism, in the religion I loved.

Universalism doesn't say there's no hell. Just that hell doesn't consist of everlasting torment. Personally I'd be terrified of spending five minutes in hell. As for heaven, if I didn't really love God, I wouldn't want to be in the place where loving and worshiping God was the primary focus.