Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

You misnderstand me. I was asking you why you assume that this belief has to be achieved in this life. I agree with you that we need to believe, and love and trust, God to be reconciled with God but there's no reason this has to occur on planet Earth before we shuffle off our mortal coil? John 3:16 certainly doesn't say or even suggest that.

Isaiah 38:18
18 For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
Psalms 6:5
5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psalms 30:9
9 "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Psalms 88:11
11 Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?
Psalms 115:17
17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence;
Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Luke 16:26
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
John 9:4
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

 

[Clare73]

You confess that the Chinese navy is powerful but you do not believe that the Chinese navy is loving and benevolent. You would prefer a situation in which the Chinese navy is not powerful.

Got nothing to do with "loving and benevolent," has to do only with agreeing with the facts, just as confessing that 'Jesus Christ is Lord' is agreeing with the fact that he is Master and Ruler of all creation, and which does not mean being in favor of it.

The big difference is that God will show all people that He is loving and benevolent. Everyone will be glad to confess that God is powerful.

The text specifies what will be confessed; i.e., Christ's lordship.

 

[ozso]

And OBTW my lengthy post with the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud etc. has never been shown to be wrong.

It's been refuted. You seem to disregard or forget that.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[ozso]

Isaiah 38:18
18 For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
Psalms 6:5
5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psalms 30:9
9 "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Psalms 88:11
11 Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?
Psalms 115:17
17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence;
Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Luke 16:26
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
John 9:4
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

And yet,

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

 

[Clare73]

"Essentials of the faith" Tell me Albion, just where would that required
position be found in the BIBLE?
It seems to me that 'your position' is also, just a "rationalization".
And "Holy Scriptures" is just the deification of a book IMO.

I take it you don't agree with Paul's description:
"holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation" and
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. . ." (2 Timothy 3:15-16)?

Edit:
Correction 100's of differently translated BOOKS.

 

[Clare73]

No mention there that this belief has to happen in this life, and you have to ignore much of the rest of scripture to make your interpretation work.

Now that's rich!

"Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1)

 

[Albion]

I take it you don't agree with Paul's description: "holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvatioin" and "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. . ." (2 Timothy 3:15-16)?

Right on target, Clare. Yes, any of us can say that we would like universal salvation to be what lies ahead. In fact, that is basically what the title of the thread said in starting us off on this debate--"What's not to like?" This is basically about what we'd like to be the truth, whether or not it is.

However, what we like never ties God's hands. And it's really vain to think that it does!

But if a person chooses that course of action, he cannot do it and also claim to believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God (which, however, almost every last Christian denomination officially professes).

 

[Clare73]

You misnderstand me. I was asking you why you assume that this belief has to be achieved in this life. I agree with you that we need to believe, and love and trust, God to be reconciled with God but there's no reason this has to occur on planet Earth before we shuffle off our mortal coil? John 3:16 certainly doesn't say or even suggest that.

REALLY rich!

 

[Clare73]

Right on target, Clare. Yes, any of us can say that we would like universal salvation to be what lies ahead. In fact, that is basically what the title of the thread said in starting us off on this debate--"What's not to like?" This is basically about what we'd like to be the truth, whether or not it is. However, what we like never ties God's hands. And it's really vain to think that it does!

But if a person chooses that course of action, he cannot do it and also claim to believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God (which, however, almost every last Christian denomination officially professes).

That road leads to its own destination, and it's not a good one.

 

[Hillsage]

No mention there that this belief has to happen in this life, and you have to ignore much of the rest of scripture to make your interpretation work.

Your 'opinion' stands on older shoulders than you may realize.

Martin Luther
"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want free-will to be given me…But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him."

Dillenberger, John Ed. Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings. New YORK: Garden City, 1961. 199.

"God forbid that I should limit the times of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine Mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."

Martin Luther
The After Life by Henry Buckle pg. 168

Though I do disagree with Martin, on one point. No one has to "WIN" faith". It is a gift that is given when you hear him call you, as you were "predestined" or "for ordained" to do. And if you weren't called, in this age, then your promise lies in "THE AGES TO COME".

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, yes in the AGES to come even the false doctrine of 'the unforgiveable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' will have exceeded the age of its limits.

MAT 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Thank God Eph 2:7 was written AFTER the gospel of Matt. Do the math, seekers of 'the truth'.

 

[ozso]

Right on target, Clare. Yes, any of us can say that we would like universal salvation to be what lies ahead. In fact, that is basically what the title of the thread said in starting us off on this debate--"What's not to like?" This is basically about what we'd like to be the truth, whether or not it is.

However, what we like never ties God's hands. And it's really vain to think that it does!

But if a person chooses that course of action, he cannot do it and also claim to believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God (which, however, almost every last Christian denomination officially professes).

I see that as an inaccurate appraisal. Universalists appeal to scripture and the writings of early church fathers, rather than just making stuff up that sounds good to them. I don't see the doctrine of universal reconciliation having all that much if any less to back it up, than the doctrine of everlasting torment. As I see it, it does come down to a matter of preference regarding which one seems correct.

I found this to be quite helpful in getting a good objective understanding on the three Christian views of hell:

 

[ozso]

That road leads to its own destination, and it's not a good one.

Believing or not believing in either UR or ECT will not save or condemn anyone.

 

[Clare73]

"Love God" involves believing in and trusting Him, no?

You cannot separate God and Jesus in loving God, or in salvation to eternal life. Jesus is God.
Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6).

"Love God" means believing in and obeying God, in the One he has sent, who states that all those who do not believe in the Son are condemned already
(John 3:18), that the wrath of God remains on them (John 3:36).

There is no loving God apart from loving and obeying Jesus Christ, the One he as sent.

 

[Clare73]

That road leads to its own destination, and it's not a good one.

Believing or not believing in either UR or ECT will not save or condemn anyone.

Agreed. . .

 

[ozso]

Agreed. . .

Your comment seemed to imply that "the road that leads to destruction" (Matthew 7:13) applies to those who believe in UR.

 

[ozso]

There's been plenty of times I've thought UR is just wishful thinking since I first took a look at it many years ago. But so far I haven't objectively seen the arguments for it crumble, or the arguments against it destroy it. It seems to me in most if not all cases when I consider a doctrine to be incorrect, those who believe in it, believe that it sets them apart as special in God's eyes. It tells them that they are the few chosen ones. The doctrines I find incorrect are usually if not always exclusionary. "Yay for us, too bad for them".

UR however is pretty much the opposite of that.

 

[Clare73]

Hmm... it's so hard to choose! I think I'll go for this one:

View attachment 306442

The eyes have fallen out. . .no eyes on the toast.

 

[Clare73]

Your comment seemed to imply that "the road that leads to destruction" (Matthew 7:13) applies to those who believe in UR.

Rejecting in Scripture what we "do not like" is the road to which I am referring.

 

[Clare73]

I haven't objectively seen the arguments for it crumble, or the arguments against it destroy it. It seems to me in most if not all cases when I consider a doctrine to be incorrect, those who believe in it, believe that it sets them apart as special in God's eyes. It tells them that they are the few chosen ones. The doctrines I find incorrect are usually if not always exclusionary. "Yay for us, too bad for them".

That seems somewhat simplistic to me
("simplistic" not to be confused with "simple").

UR however is pretty much the opposite of that.

Surely you aren't saying that is your standard for God's truth. . .are you?