Christian revelation in a totally non-Christian context

[nojnoj]

Have there ever been cases of someone living in an entirely non-Christian environment, with no experience of Christian teaching or culture whatsoever, who has been converted by an explicitly Christian revelation?

It seems that, invariably, a person who experiences something spiritually transcendent, interprets it according to the religion of their society or formative background.

It would be very powerful argument for a particular religion if what the person experienced was overtly manifested in terms of that religion AND that religion was alien to that person's social/cultural environment, almost as if to say, "No, your society's religion is wrong - this is the true path".

 

[drich0150]

The Apostle Paul was such a person.

He grew up in a "non Christian" environment, Persecuted and had Christians put to death, until his Divine revelation.

 

[salida]

This guy sure did and others like him-

(testimony of a former muslim to a christian)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgLFm0CQGQ&NR=1

 

[salida]

I can give you many more also.

 

[bling]

A person does not need “details” of Christianity to be saved.

I have not experienced what you are asking for (all my mission work has been where people had already heard some about Christ), but I know of missionaries that have seen something of what you are asking for.

What happens in going to a village that has never heard of Christ is there will sometimes be those that have seen the hypocrisy in their own religion and teachers, believe there would have to be this all powerful and all Loving God and have but the trust (faith) in that God. For them to learn of Christ and what He did and to realize the god they desired is truly God is “Good News” to them, but that does not mean they were not “saved” prior to this good news.

If these people were given a complete “revelation” about Christ, it would remove the privilege and honor I can have in taking it to them. The system of having Christ go to people one on one, eyeball to eyeball, (Christ living and working through individuals) is the best, quickest, and really only way to do it. We do not follow the method, so that is the reason it does not work. To go to individuals through visions and dreams has a huge danger of puffing the person up with pride (having special knowledge) when God is trying to help them overcome their pride, so they can humbly accept Charity.

This is a huge subject.

 

[nojnoj]

This guy sure did and others like him-
(testimony of a former muslim to a christian)

I googled "afshin javid" & "Pudu" on the Malaysian domain, and there's no trace of him aside from a couple of pages (his website and Christian sites repeating his claim). Need more evidence, as he looks suspect.

In addition, having said that, there are conversions from one religion to others, especially Christian to Muslim or vice versa. In the case of Muslims, Yeshua is considered a prophet already ("PBUH", etc), and this guy A.J. would have been schooled in some aspects of Christianity as part of his alleged training (i.e. "know your enemy"). So Jesus wasn't an unknown quantity.

I'm not advocating for Islam, but there are plenty of converts the other way, e.g. Cat Stevens, Richard Thompson. But again, converts these days pick up books and read about it, rather than suddenly having an unexpected religious vision on the way to Walmart.

 

[nojnoj]

The Apostle Paul was such a person.

He grew up in a "non Christian" environment, Persecuted and had Christians put to death, until his Divine revelation.

He was exposed to early Christians and Christian teachings - part of his job - so he may have been influenced over some period of time by the dignity of those Christians he allegedly persecuted. He was also an epileptic, in all likelihood, and such fits are often accompanied by weird sensations and hallucinations.

Doesn't prove he didn't have a divine revelation, but there are big question marks.

 

[Mess]

Have there ever been cases of someone living in an entirely non-Christian environment, with no experience of Christian teaching or culture whatsoever, who has been converted by an explicitly Christian revelation?

It seems that, invariably, a person who experiences something spiritually transcendent, interprets it according to the religion of their society or formative background.

It would be very powerful argument for a particular religion if what the person experienced was overtly manifested in terms of that religion AND that religion was alien to that person's social/cultural environment, almost as if to say, "No, your society's religion is wrong - this is the true path".

Apparently a lot of people in the Islamic part of the world are having dreams of Jesus, and convert because of those. Another such testimony is that of Dr. Daniel Shayesteh, who long before he became a Christian had received a prophecy that in later life he would become a Christian. The man went from radical, fundamentalistic Muslim who was a revolutionist leader of Iran to an inspiring Christian. His wife had a dream about Jesus before she actually knew he had become a Christian, so when he told her he had become a Christian she shared her experience with him.

 

[nojnoj]

A person does not need “details” of Christianity to be saved.
I have not experienced what you are asking for (all my mission work has been where people had already heard some about Christ), but I know of missionaries that have seen something of what you are asking for.
...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yes, this is the sort of thing I was asking about.

What you describe (in the bit I've snipped) is really a "general revelation" someone might have about (a) the indadequacies of someone's pre-existing religion and (b) the possibility of an all-encompassing, loving (monotheistic) God.

That's fine by me, but these would not be religious doctrine-specific. The "fabric and structure" this person then learns to ascribe to his/her religious revalations or discoveries (i.e. doctrine) will depend on the religion of the missionary who counsels them. After all, there were Islamic "?missionaries" working in Southern Asia and Austronesia; rustic, isolated villagers there would learn to interpret their experience through Islamic eyes. In South America, it would be Christianity. In Bali, Hinduism, and so forth.

My view is this: Yes, a raw spiritual experience may well come from a divine source; but the explanation of it in religious terms virtually always works by pre-existing religions trying to mold it into their own doctrine and worldview.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

The examples presented to the OP don't seem to genuinely follow the standards they put forth, since all the contexts are suggestive of conversions within a context that already had familiarity with the teachings of Jesus and his historical existence within their own religious framework. Jews and Muslims converting to Christianity is not exactly unusual, considering Jesus has some degree of importance to both traditions, even if the regard is not the same as in Christianity. Likewise, people could convert from Christianity to Islam or Judaism because of the similar shared values and commonality of figures like Abraham and Jesus among others.

The example the person wants is something more like a person as separated from Christianity as possible having a revelation of a figure that is unmistakeably identical to Jesus without having known about the story of Jesus. This is difficulty because of the viral spread of Christianity across the known world even just a couple of hundred years after it began to spread in the Middle Eastern areas. One would have to find a revelation from a group of people that existed historically before Jesus' birth to really find any significant justification to the OP's standards.

 

[drich0150]

He was exposed to early Christians and Christian teachings - part of his job - so he may have been influenced over some period of time by the dignity of those Christians he allegedly persecuted.

Actually He was on the Road to Damascus to hunt down and persecute more Christians when God/Jesus struck Him down with blindness and gave Him his revelation. The story presented by history does not coincide with your hypothesis.

He was also an epileptic, in all likelihood, and such fits are often accompanied by weird sensations and hallucinations.

That is a completely baseless accusation. There is nothing besides speculation and conjecture, from those who can not account for the 180 that Saul of tarsus underwent to become Paul the Apostle. "They" are looking for a way to dismiss a miracle/Personal contact with God through the conventional avenues of popular science. Simply because it is beyond their current understandings. (Kinda like how the world was flat a few hundred years ago.)

Doesn't prove he didn't have a divine revelation, but there are big question marks.

Their will always be big question marks for all who do not know God..

 

[razeontherock]

Have there ever been cases of someone living in an entirely non-Christian environment, with no experience of Christian teaching or culture whatsoever, who has been converted by an explicitly Christian revelation?

It would be very powerful argument for a particular religion if what the person experienced was overtly manifested in terms of that religion AND that religion was alien to that person's social/cultural environment, almost as if to say, "No, your society's religion is wrong - this is the true path".

YES and - - YES!


These are (some of the) things that let us KNOW. "Faith" does not mean 'make believe,' and modern day dictionaries bear NO resemblance to the Biblical term.

 

[razeontherock]

My view is this: Yes, a raw spiritual experience may well come from a divine source; but the explanation of it in religious terms virtually always works by pre-existing religions trying to mold it

No, not virtually always. And now I'm about to mess Bling's theology all up, since he said this scenario would be problematic: (don't worry Bling, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger)

there was a short-term, temporary Preacher of Jesus Christ who met Him while he and his family were starving. He lived in a completely uncivilized area of SA; jungle in every respect. At this time he had no contact w/ the Gospel and had never heard of it.

He "knew" G-d was telling him to kill this HUGE boa, cut it open, and drag the deer inside it to his family. Don't ask me how he "knew" this, and he didn't even try to explain it. I also forget the details of why this was so taboo, but it's significant that the deer was still alive. By the time you cooked it, nothing that had been contacted by the snake's digestive process would be a factor.

Anyway it was a big deal that he obeyed G-d, which was apparently counted to him as righteousness much as in Abraham's situation. (Abraham also fits the mold you're asking about btw, just quite some time ago


He was "shown" the whole Gospel, and told to seek out Christian missionaries which were quite a long way away from where he was; a difficult journey. The time period before he was approved to preach was very short, because he already knew essentially everything he needed to know. He just needed to be "socialized."

He preached for a while but quickly got homesick, and disappeared back into the jungle. (I'm pretty sure the family already referenced was extended family, NOT wife and kids)

North American indigenous people had dreams, visions, and visitations. They knew the whole story, and had symbols including crosses, knowing exactly what it meant. The only thing they didn't know was His Name. This has everything to do w/ why white man's arrival was successful, and why our betrayal of their friendship so horrendous.

Very compelling evidence!

 

[nojnoj]

Actually He was on the Road to Damascus to hunt down and persecute more Christians when God/Jesus struck Him down with blindness and gave Him his revelation.

That's a faith interpretation, rather than historical. Is there a non-Biblical source for information about S/Paul of Tarsus? If he suddenly about-faced, to become the principal and inspirational leader of the people he was supposed to be persecuting, I expect the matter would have interested his superiors.

The suggestion of epilepsy is reasonable, as his conversion episiode coincides with many symptoms of epilepsy. It's arguable either way. I don't see epilepsy as something to "accuse" someone of.

I can't help feeling, though, that if a prominent figure from a Dharmic religion claimed to have these experiences, you'd be expressing the same doubts as me. There seems to be a set of double standards which all religions are guilty of.

 

[nojnoj]

No, not virtually always. And now I'm about to mess Bling's theology all up, since he said this scenario would be problematic: (don't worry Bling, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger)

there was a short-term, temporary Preacher of Jesus Christ ...

Thanks for the story, razeontherock - it's certainly a compelling one.

I'll admit that I'm probably asking for too much here: in order to satisfy myself about a "trans-religious" conversion, I'd have to experience it directly myself, compare it with the religious interpretation given to it, and judge whether the latter is contrived, i.e. is there an attempt to fit the revelation to the religion?

 

[razeontherock]

Your basic premise in this thread is valid. G-d certainly works within the confines of what our minds can relate to. Drich and I have both experienced Him expanding that, in intentionally mind-blowing ways.

He's like that

 

[bling]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yes, this is the sort of thing I was asking about.

What you describe (in the bit I've snipped) is really a "general revelation" someone might have about (a) the indadequacies of someone's pre-existing religion and (b) the possibility of an all-encompassing, loving (monotheistic) God.

That's fine by me, but these would not be religious doctrine-specific. The "fabric and structure" this person then learns to ascribe to his/her religious revalations or discoveries (i.e. doctrine) will depend on the religion of the missionary who counsels them. After all, there were Islamic "?missionaries" working in Southern Asia and Austronesia; rustic, isolated villagers there would learn to interpret their experience through Islamic eyes. In South America, it would be Christianity. In Bali, Hinduism, and so forth.

My view is this: Yes, a raw spiritual experience may well come from a divine source; but the explanation of it in religious terms virtually always works by pre-existing religions trying to mold it into their own doctrine and worldview.

We sometimes look at the world from our perspective and ask “why?”

It is much more complex than we realize and yet it is also very simple.

Yes, people are influenced by the religions that are being taught and almost every religion has some truth in it that helps sell it. Whatever the false teaching/religion might be (this includes a lot of people calling themselves Christian) it can be held in contrast to true Christianity.

The Bible tells us that people are held accountable for what they do know and not what they do not know. The question than is why teach them more?

Missionaries are spreader of “Good News” to those that have seen the hypocrisy of all their other religions and the inconsistency of religious people and their teachings about a Loving Creator. These people (seekers) that “do not know about Jesus” provide a wonderful, fulfilling opportunity for believers to have the honor and privilege of teaching (allowing the Holy Spirit to work through them teaching others). I learned about Jesus through people and since I cannot “pay them back or pay God back for that gift”, I would like to bless others the way I was blessed.

The complexity comes with what we are trying to communicate to others. It is not really a philosophy or message, but the Love of Jesus and the fact that Love can be in them. We are trying to introduce Jesus to people first hand living through us, so they want that Love themselves.

You suggest it would be “more” believable if some remote group of people had a person with a miraculous revelation about Christ. But think about that:

Why did you not get the same revelation (does God not Love you)?

If that is a good way for people to find out about Christ than why not have that method for everyone?

Would some not need “faith” to believe in the existence of God, since you would have this Scientific verification of a miracle?

The list goes on to show the way it should work is the best and only way.

 

[drich0150]

That's a faith interpretation, rather than historical. Is there a non-Biblical source for information about S/Paul of Tarsus? If he suddenly about-faced, to become the principal and inspirational leader of the people he was supposed to be persecuting, I expect the matter would have interested his superiors.

Josephus mentions Saulus a kinsmen of Agrippa (Paul's conversion in his works.)

I can't help feeling, though, that if a prominent figure from a Dharmic religion claimed to have these experiences, you'd be expressing the same doubts as me. There seems to be a set of double standards which all religions are guilty of.

Double standards are not intrinsic to religion. Either way one is welcome to question what ever he finds. 1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. However It is the fool who endeavors to find his own brand of righteousness in the answers he seeks.

 

[nojnoj]

Thanks bling for your thoughts on the matter, and to everybody who has replied. I appreciate your answers.

 

[razeontherock]

Here's a cut n paste from a thread I just read:

"The Holy Spirit is picking up the pace on giving dreams and visions to spiritual leaders of pagan religions, especially Muslims, that He knows are receptive to the message. There are also reports fltering in where missionaries are finding tribes with no access to the Gospel whose religion is so close to Christianity that the only thing they don't know is the name of the Savior. When asked how they came to this religion, they say that it's the only way that makes sense to them and it's been the tribe's religion for as long as anybody knows."

No, there aren't specifics. I could re-trace my steps and via PM put you in touch with that poster if you want.