Christian Question.

[Hieronymus]

God is a title, you don't have to abbreviate or avoid using it.
Jesus Christ is a name of God, but that you apparently don't abbreviate or avoid using?
(just saying..)

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Friend, Logic is NOT Scripture. Scripture is the very WORD and history of G_OD working with man and how He dealt with SATAN. Read Revelation, there you will see that Satan is NOT loved by G-d but Satan is the enemy of The Lord Jesus Christ and Father G-d! To say G-d loves him is like saying Hitler is a beloved Saint of the Roman Catholic church. And that is impossible! What you are saying is very close to blaspheme! be careful what you say that G-d loves. That is my opinion.

I'm not sure what Satan being an enemy of God has to do with God not loving Satan. It is perfectly acceptable (in fact, commanded) that we love our enemies. While I'm not advocating that we should "love" Satan, we should also not allow the enmity which humanity has with Satan to distort our understanding of God's unconditional love for all that God has created, including Satan. After all, if God cannot love the enemies of God, we have no more hope of salvation than the devil does, as we are enemies of God in our sinfulness.

Moreover, consider this: If God does not love all that God has created, we must conclude that God repents of God's own creative purposes, and that God is capable of being altered by that which God has created. If you want to start throwing around charges of blasphemy and heresy, perhaps you should examine the ends of your own "opinions" before casting stones...

 

[farout]

I'm not sure what Satan being an enemy of God has to do with God not loving Satan. It is perfectly acceptable (in fact, commanded) that we love our enemies. While I'm not advocating that we should "love" Satan, we should also not allow the enmity which humanity has with Satan to distort our understanding of God's unconditional love for all that God has created, including Satan. After all, if God cannot love the enemies of God, we have no more hope of salvation than the devil does, as we are enemies of God in our sinfulness.

Moreover, consider this: If God does not love all that God has created, we must conclude that God repents of God's own creative purposes, and that God is capable of being altered by that which God has created. If you want to start throwing around charges of blasphemy and heresy, perhaps you should examine the ends of your own "opinions" before casting stones...

Just where does Satan end up? If Satan is so loved by G-d then is not eternal punishment rather odd? Perhaps the book of Revelation might be of a greater understanding of Satan's final resting place. Surely a G-d who loved Satan so much would not send him to a place of burning sulfur, where there is pain so bad there is gashing of teeth, would He? Would Jesus have had to endure the cross if G-d loved Satan? I am not casting stones, I am just repeating what our Loving G-d has said about Satan.

I agree G-d loved Satan at first, but Satan turned against the LORD G-d Almighty, and his desire was to revolt against G-d and some angels did this with Satan. They will be casted into the lake of fire along with the souls whom rejected Jesus Christ will be there for eternity. The fact that G-d has prepared this place of eternal punishment for Satan his angels and those who reject Jesus Christ shows clearly what love G-d once had has now changed to that of rejecting him forever!

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Just where does Satan end up? If Satan is so loved by G-d then is not eternal punishment rather odd? Perhaps the book of Revelation might be of a greater understanding of Satan's final resting place. Surely a G-d who loved Satan so much would not send him to a place of burning sulfur, where there is pain so bad there is gashing of teeth, would He? Would Jesus have had to endure the cross if G-d loved Satan? I am not casting stones, I am just repeating what our Loving G-d has said about Satan.

That Satan is punished does not mean that God does not love Satan. Saying that God hates Satan creates an eternal blackmail against the nature of God, as God must exist in a state of self-contradiction in order to maintain hatred over and against the eternal loving-ing-ness of God's nature. It also means that God's good purposes in creation are eternally thwarted, as God is eternally diminished in love in order to maintain an eternal hatred against that which God has created.

I agree G-d loved Satan at first, but Satan turned against the LORD G-d Almighty, and his desire was to revolt against G-d and some angels did this with Satan. They will be casted into the lake of fire along with the souls whom rejected Jesus Christ will be there for eternity. The fact that G-d has prepared this place of eternal punishment for Satan his angels and those who reject Jesus Christ shows clearly what love G-d once had has now changed to that of rejecting him forever!

So you ARE saying that God has changed. God is, therefore, not immutable, but prone to change in the same way that the contingent creation is. You have undermined one of the most critical concepts of Christian theology.

Has it occurred to you that "forever" is perhaps not the same as "eternal"? Some careful word studies on the passages regarding the "duration" of punishment can reveal some very interesting conclusions, one of them being that the NT writers may not have intended the meaning of "eternal" to be understood as "never-ending", but more in the sense of "age-long". If the latter is even a consideration, it is perfectly easy to reconcile God loving the "damned", as their punishment is not out of blood-lust or pure penal execution, but is rather the result of a loving discipline and correction that is ultimately intended to bring about restoration and reconciliation.

 

[farout]

That Satan is punished does not mean that God does not love Satan. Saying that God hates Satan creates an eternal blackmail against the nature of God, as God must exist in a state of self-contradiction in order to maintain hatred over and against the eternal loving-ing-ness of God's nature. It also means that God's good purposes in creation are eternally thwarted, as God is eternally diminished in love in order to maintain an eternal hatred against that which God has created.



So you ARE saying that God has changed. God is, therefore, not immutable, but prone to change in the same way that the contingent creation is. You have undermined one of the most critical concepts of Christian theology.

Has it occurred to you that "forever" is perhaps not the same as "eternal"? Some careful word studies on the passages regarding the "duration" of punishment can reveal some very interesting conclusions, one of them being that the NT writers may not have intended the meaning of "eternal" to be understood as "never-ending", but more in the sense of "age-long". If the latter is even a consideration, it is perfectly easy to reconcile God loving the "damned", as their punishment is not out of blood-lust or pure penal execution, but is rather the result of a loving discipline and correction that is ultimately intended to bring about restoration and reconciliation.

What you are saying is not Orthodox Christianity. You have the right to say anything you wish. But the Bible is clearly at odds with your belief. Have a nice day. I am done.

 

[DreyDay]

I have spent a long time trying to become a better person and a better christian.
Who can say if I have or have not changed. I am not a judge.

After some time in my life, I do feel that I have changed for the better.. But I am confused. The Bible teaches love and forgiveness, After some time, One can begin to really feel these things in their heart.

I ask you all, Is it wrong, To feel sorry for the Devil? I realize what the devil is, and what he has done to God and man,, but My heart was taught to love and to forgive, And I do feel sorry for a soul that is so damned without any chance for salvation..

Is this wrong to feel? Am I wrong?

Dude. You're weird. Why are you even worried about this?

 

[farout]

Dude. You're weird. Why are you even worried about this?

That's a good question. One who is concerned for the enemy of G-d I do not understand.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

What you are saying is not Orthodox Christianity. You have the right to say anything you wish. But the Bible is clearly at odds with your belief. Have a nice day. I am done.

Huh? What have I said that contradicts orthodox Christian belief? That God loves God's creation unconditionally and without change is a fundamental concept in Christian belief. To deny it, as you have, is what is unorthodox, not to mention your necessary denial of the immutability of the divine nature.

 

[Shadowprophet]

Then it is a question I must answer, Some people could say, Why not just jump on the band wagon and do like others do,, Because I was raised that if the blind follow the blind they shall both fall.. So, I was raised like most people I assume. But I Want to do things right. I want to become the best christian I can be. We were taught That Christ was the example that we are to live by, And that he was perfect. Even Jesus showed mercy to the demons he cast into swine and did not cast into oblivion.

To be different is everyone's unique right, I was never Told that I had to hate. and If I do not have to hate, I will not.. Hate is darkness, It is a poison that taints the soul with a useless emotion that has no place in my heart. I want no part of hate.. I can abstain from Satan and his ways.. But I will not hate because it opens the door to darkness..

if the choices we make in life are the paths we follow,, Which way does the path of hate lead?

 

[farout]

Then it is a question I must answer, Some people could say, Why not just jump on the band wagon and do like others do,, Because I was raised that if the blind follow the blind they shall both fall.. So, I was raised like most people I assume. But I Want to do things right. I want to become the best christian I can be. We were taught That Christ was the example that we are to live by, And that he was perfect. Even Jesus showed mercy to the demons he cast into swine and did not cast into oblivion.

To be different is everyone's unique right, I was never Told that I had to hate. and If I do not have to hate, I will not.. Hate is darkness, It is a poison that taints the soul with a useless emotion that has no place in my heart. I want no part of hate.. I can abstain from Satan and his ways.. But I will not hate because it opens the door to darkness..

if the choices we make in life are the paths we follow,, Which way does the path of hate lead?

We are to hate evil and love good. We are to love G-d and Jesus Christ. We are to remember Satan goes about like a lion seeking to destroy those he can. There is NORHING to love about Satan. To love Satan is to not love G-d. You do one or the other, but it is impossible to do both.

 

[Shadowprophet]

Yes I never did say I loved Satan, I asked if it was wrong to feel sorry for his condemned soul.. I even gave an example of how Jesus himself showed mercy to demons. I don't feel I have to be all Gorilla Warfare with hate. It says to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. I don't feel I Have to actively hate and grow harsh in spirit.. Everything we do every action we take has a reaction.. I Abstain from the devil and his temptations. If I follow Gods word and do as the lord want's of me, I can follow his rule and still not hate.. It is a dark emotion that I do not like ,, no..I do not have to harden my spirit and feel hate. I deny this.


Let me make this perfectly clear so that no one misunderstands me, I LOVE THE LORD GOD WHO CREATED THIS UNIVERSE AND GAVE ME LIFE AND TOOK MY SINS AWAY FROM ME BY SENDING HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AS A SACRIFICE TO DIE AND PAY THE PRICE OF MY SINS. BECAUSE THE PRICE OF SIN IS DEATH. AND THE LORD GODS SON JESUS PAID THAT PRICE. FOR ALL WHO ACCEPT HIM.

And I do not have to hate from my heart.. No one can make me do so..

 

[Lance & Rite]

The devil is always an interesting concept. Does God want him to be evil? What about Judas?

I think the biggest question that is really relevant to us as humans is whether we can dole out necessary actions, such as punishments and consequences, without malice or even with a sense of forgiveness. A person can forgive someone's soul but sometimes still needs to judge the body.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Friend, Logic is NOT Scripture. Scripture is the very WORD and history of G_OD working with man and how He dealt with SATAN. Read Revelation, there you will see that Satan is NOT loved by G-d but Satan is the enemy of The Lord Jesus Christ and Father G-d! To say G-d loves him is like saying Hitler is a beloved Saint of the Roman Catholic church. And that is impossible! What you are saying is very close to blaspheme! be careful what you say that G-d loves. That is my opinion.

The idea that one can forsake logic just to please God is blasphemous. It doesn't make sense to operate without regards to what makes sense.

 

[keltoi]

Satan is already one of God's creations and, therefore, is loved by God.

This is based on the false presumption that God loves everyone which he doesn't.
Malachi 1:2-3 states "2Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau,"
To suggest that God doesn't hate is false, to suggest God loves Satan is also false.

 

[keltoi]

The idea that one can forsake logic just to please God is blasphemous. It doesn't make sense to operate without regards to what makes sense.

Greek Mind vs Hebrew Mind.
In other words the logic that has developed since Christ's resurrection has its basis in Greek though and culture patterns.
Hebrew thought and culture patterns don't need human logic because their culture was not concerned with human logic.
Read this article for clarification http://messianicpublications.com/tim-hegg/my-big-fat-greek-mindset-part-1/

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Greek Mind vs Hebrew Mind.
In other words the logic that has developed since Christ's resurrection has its basis in Greek though and culture patterns.
Hebrew thought and culture patterns don't need human logic because their culture was not concerned with human logic.
Read this article for clarification http://messianicpublications.com/tim-hegg/my-big-fat-greek-mindset-part-1/

Oh I have no doubt that historically Hebrew thought and culture patterns didn't follow the logical rules of the Greek philosphers. That's perfectly true.

However, the idea that one can therefore ignore logic in order to find truth . . . isn't logical.

 

[Shadowprophet]

I believe that there are certain things that God is privileged to that normal humans are not, He is privileged to Judge, We are not, He never told us we should hate, At least I don't believe he did. He is the God almighty. He is privileged to things I am not. I don't believe I am required to hate.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I have spent a long time trying to become a better person and a better christian.
Who can say if I have or have not changed. I am not a judge.

After some time in my life, I do feel that I have changed for the better.. But I am confused. The Bible teaches love and forgiveness, After some time, One can begin to really feel these things in their heart.

I ask you all, Is it wrong, To feel sorry for the Devil? I realize what the devil is, and what he has done to God and man,, but My heart was taught to love and to forgive, And I do feel sorry for a soul that is so damned without any chance for salvation..

Is this wrong to feel? Am I wrong?

I asked a similar question before about Judas Iscariot.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-judas-iscariot-saved.7936749/

There were very mixed responses. As to the Devil, we don't know his purpose in God's creation nor if God has some plan for the salvation of even diabolical beings. From our human perspective, he would be damned, but we are taught not to judge. I feel we can discuss this regarding human figures as we have some idea to the criteria for being saved, but as to supernatural beings I am not sure at all, so I leave it to God.

 

[keltoi]

Oh I have no doubt that historically Hebrew thought and culture patterns didn't follow the logical rules of the Greek philosphers. That's perfectly true.

However, the idea that one can therefore ignore logic in order to find truth . . . isn't logical.

Whose "logic" do you use to come to your conclusions of truth? Man's logic which is fundamentally flawed or God's logic which we will never understand the depths of? The Bible was written by Hebrews, yes the NT was written in Greek but by Hebrews, Greek logic is man's logic not God's logic.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Thanks for your answer guys..I was speaking to my dad last night and we sometimes have bible discussions,, My dad believes that it's possible that everyone who ends up going to hell, may end up being destroyed with the second death.. I was already afraid of hell. But if it's true that most who go there will receive the second death and have their souls destroyed. it makes me fear it even more. I had always assumed that Justice was everywhere and that people in hell would be punished according to their sins. kind of like people will be rewarded according to how they lived their life... Does anyone know, if it is true that everyone who goes to hell will get the second death?

I believe you need to do some re-reading of the Scriptures and pray for clarity. Perhaps a Bible Information Class...say at a conservative Lutheran church would help. In reading you here I see we very much disagree on our end times understanding and it's doing you damage.
You may be fearing damnation and that is where we start out in our walk...the tricky part is that Satan sometimes slips in and works on one's fears planting seeds of "God's not fair, God's not loving". Ignore it. Tell yourself that whatever your wonderful Almighty God says is right and best, fair and just, merciful and loving and just follow Jesus without all the doubts, evaluation and questionings of His integrity. He is not wrong and sinful, we are. Our hearts and minds need to be re-made, that is to say, God has not yet perfected you...pray for a right spirit as did King David.
Be strong and follow the teachings and gain understanding through more study and prayer.
(Sorry, my writing is a bit too disorganized, but I feel you'll get my intentions.)