Christian Persecution

[Ringo84]

No, because if I did, it still would not be believed by you and this is not what the forums are for. It's not hard to find, look for yourself. I am not here to prove myself on anything. All anyone has to do is look at the state of our schools and they clearly show something is wrong.

My main point in saying anything at all in this thread is to agree 1) That Christians are not "persecuted" persay in the US, but that there is a severe degradation in our Christian foundation.
And to say that I have seen where prayer and the Bible have been banned from schools. Is it in every school in the country. No, as I said before. Thank God that there are still some schools that have some common sense.
It is up to you to determine what you believe, because no matter what anyone tells you or shows you, you won't believe it anyway. You have your mind made up. I'm not here to debate what is going on in the schools. The schools and what happens in there shows for themselves.
I am here to encourage people to pray for our schools, to pray for our kids and to not have their heads in the sand as to what is going on in the school.

On another note: I also have seen wonderous things happen in schools because of prayer and because of kids who are absolutely willing to fight for their right to have a bible study. Prayer at the pole is another good thing that happens once a year, though still not at every school, but there are encouraging signs.
We have 5-6 years to reach these kids before they become an adult, and the chances of them turning to God after becoming an adult become even slimmer. This is our next generation we are talking about. Try talking to them. Find out why they are cutting themselves. Find out why they are so sexually active. Find out why they are shooting each other, raping each other. Find out why they are so lost.
People need to quit arguing symantics and the what if's and what are's and get into the pits and find out for yourself what is going on in the schools and with our kids from elementary to College.
Like I said, you don't have to look far.

Sennaria

And to say that I have seen where prayer and the Bible have been banned from schools. Is it in every school in the country. No, as I said before. Thank God that there are still some schools that have some common sens

Thanks for saying this. Absolutely. There may be some schools that are taking religious neutrality so far. But has the Bible and prayer been banned nationally in public school? No.
Ringo

 

[Sennaria]

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Thanks for saying this. Absolutely. There may be some schools that are taking religious neutrality so far. But has the Bible and prayer been banned nationally in public school? No.
Ringo

Ahhhh the symantics thing again. I never meant to imply that it was "officially" banned.......however, unofficially yes very much so. I apologize if anything I said was taken to mean the government or anyone else has passed laws or legislation doing so. I never meant to imply that, that would be ludicrous. But the lawsuits and ACLU have done a good enough job to keep it stifled.

 

[Sennaria]

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Wrong. Prayer is not banned in public school any more than lead pencils are banned. There has never been any law against prayer in general (only mandatory prayer).


[/size][/color][/font]Never said there was, if it was read into something I said I apologize.

OK, but the religious neutrality in public school isn't to protect only Christian students. It's to protect ALL students. It is not the job of the public school system to save children. That's the church's job.

[/size][/color][/font]
I never meant to imply that it was the schools place to do that either, of course it is the church's, the family etc job. But it isn't the schools place to prohibit the practice thereof either - kids cannot even sing. And I do NOT as I said before say this about just Christians, anyone should be able to practice their faith, Freedom of Religion and all.

It's not that Christians aren't allowed to practice their religion in public schools. It's that the public school system should not officially endorse a particular religion. It's simply too problematic.
Ringo

It goes without saying that they should not endorse, I don't believe I ever said that they should.

 

[Ringo84]

Ahhhh the symantics thing again. I never meant to imply that it was "officially" banned.......however, unofficially yes very much so. I apologize if anything I said was taken to mean the government or anyone else has passed laws or legislation doing so. I never meant to imply that, that would be ludicrous. But the lawsuits and ACLU have done a good enough job to keep it stifled.

Sorry, Sennaria. I think I'm so used to arguing these issues (which I feel very strongly about, as you can probably tell) with fundies who buy into the whole "Christians are so persecuted! Bible banned, prayer banned" mindset that I often jump to conclusions. This thread was directed more at them than anyone else, but your input is welcome.
Ringo

 

[Sennaria]

Sorry, Sennaria. I think I'm so used to arguing these issues (which I feel very strongly about, as you can probably tell) with fundies who buy into the whole "Christians are so persecuted! Bible banned, prayer banned" mindset that I often jump to conclusions. This thread was directed more at them than anyone else, but your input is welcome.
Ringo

I understand. And I feel that we can agree on one thing. Comparatively, US Christians, at this time, have no idea within our borders what true persecution is. The holocaust is persecution, China has persecution and India and other countries like that which have religious persecution, what we have should be a breeze.

But I'm not sure that that is not frustrating in itself, because, why should we wait until it does turn into a true persecution. You must admit, that there is a vast difference in the schools and in public life now than there was say 30 years ago. What will it be like 30 years from now, if people don't open their eyes and be aware?? This is not just a school issue, it's about our whole countries morals.

Right now, any "banning"that does go on...it can be fought if we don't kowtow (spelling in question) to it, and we still have the right to fight anything that goes on. Public outcry still goes far and means something.
Just like the fact that Christmas Carols (I mean songs like Silent Night, Oh Come all Ye Faithful) that have been around for eons cannot be sung anymore at Christmas Pageants (or should I say Winter Festivals? *eyeroll*) If the Christian public would truly cry out, they would be back. And yes, why not have a Hannakeah Pagent if one is wanted or any other faiths pageants. Because none of these "Religious" Pageants need to force participation and I'm sorry but Christmas Pageants have been around for generations and generations. Now they cannot even be called that anymore for the most part, yet we have Halloween carnivals! It may be subtle but it is there and will continue to grow, unless people finally say enough. But then again, this is not persecution, if anything it is a bed we lie in for not speaking out and acting earlier, now we have to try and turn the tide back. It's always easier to stop something before it gets momentum, this eroding away has momentum so it will be harder to stop.

Going on also, why is the Pledge of Allegiance not said anymore every morning?? That is an Allegiance to our country? Patriotism is hardly taught anymore, and I just think this is totally sad. The country has turned its back on its Christian roots and we must take at least partial responsibility for looking the other way.
But I ramble on.........I think I shall go home to my family now.

Thank you for the discussion Ringo! I think overall we are on the same page, unless I am mistaken.

 

[churchrat]

Sennaria, you took the words right out of my mouth! I think we all recognize that we have it well, but we want to continue to have the rights we enjoy, and there are some out there who seem opposed to Christianity, want to drive us "underground". Can we be denied our Constitutional rights? Well, there did used to be a Right to Bear Arms in there as well, not really sure what happened to it.

On the other hand, I do think we're unaware of just how bad it still is in the rest of the world. I was considering starting a website to catalog whatever reports of Christian persecution I could find, but I never got it off the ground. Maybe someone else has made one in the meantime; I should google search.

 

[soblessed53]

[/size][/color][/font]

Wrong. Prayer is not banned in public school any more than lead pencils are banned. There has never been any law against prayer in general (only mandatory prayer).

[/size][/color][/font]

OK, but the religious neutrality in public school isn't to protect only Christian students. It's to protect ALL students. It is not the job of the public school system to save children. That's the church's job.

[/size][/color][/font]

It's not that Christians aren't allowed to practice their religion in public schools. It's that the public school system should not officially endorse a particular religion. It's simply too problematic.
Ringo

Gee what is a Supreme Court Decision if it is not a law? And there are more than once instance of visible group prayer being forbidden,not just kids before or after a group study,but also before ALL school sporting events,which used to be the norm.

 

[soblessed53]

No, because if I did, it still would not be believed by you and this is not what the forums are for. It's not hard to find, look for yourself. I am not here to prove myself on anything. All anyone has to do is look at the state of our schools and they clearly show something is wrong.

My main point in saying anything at all in this thread is to agree 1) That Christians are not "persecuted" persay in the US, but that there is a severe degradation in our Christian foundation.
And to say that I have seen where prayer and the Bible have been banned from schools. Is it in every school in the country. No, as I said before. Thank God that there are still some schools that have some common sense.
It is up to you to determine what you believe, because no matter what anyone tells you or shows you, you won't believe it anyway. You have your mind made up. I'm not here to debate what is going on in the schools. The schools and what happens in there shows for themselves.
I am here to encourage people to pray for our schools, to pray for our kids and to not have their heads in the sand as to what is going on in the school.

On another note: I also have seen wonderous things happen in schools because of prayer and because of kids who are absolutely willing to fight for their right to have a bible study. Prayer at the pole is another good thing that happens once a year, though still not at every school, but there are encouraging signs.
We have 5-6 years to reach these kids before they become an adult, and the chances of them turning to God after becoming an adult become even slimmer. This is our next generation we are talking about. Try talking to them. Find out why they are cutting themselves. Find out why they are so sexually active. Find out why they are shooting each other, raping each other. Find out why they are so lost.
People need to quit arguing symantics and the what if's and what are's and get into the pits and find out for yourself what is going on in the schools and with our kids from elementary to College.
Like I said, you don't have to look far.

Sennaria

You are so absolutely right on all points! Excellent post! God Bless You

 

[Ringo84]

I understand. And I feel that we can agree on one thing. Comparatively, US Christians, at this time, have no idea within our borders what true persecution is. The holocaust is persecution, China has persecution and India and other countries like that which have religious persecution, what we have should be a breeze.

But I'm not sure that that is not frustrating in itself, because, why should we wait until it does turn into a true persecution. You must admit, that there is a vast difference in the schools and in public life now than there was say 30 years ago. What will it be like 30 years from now, if people don't open their eyes and be aware?? This is not just a school issue, it's about our whole countries morals.

Right now, any "banning"that does go on...it can be fought if we don't kowtow (spelling in question) to it, and we still have the right to fight anything that goes on. Public outcry still goes far and means something.
Just like the fact that Christmas Carols (I mean songs like Silent Night, Oh Come all Ye Faithful) that have been around for eons cannot be sung anymore at Christmas Pageants (or should I say Winter Festivals? *eyeroll*) If the Christian public would truly cry out, they would be back. And yes, why not have a Hannakeah Pagent if one is wanted or any other faiths pageants. Because none of these "Religious" Pageants need to force participation and I'm sorry but Christmas Pageants have been around for generations and generations. Now they cannot even be called that anymore for the most part, yet we have Halloween carnivals! It may be subtle but it is there and will continue to grow, unless people finally say enough. But then again, this is not persecution, if anything it is a bed we lie in for not speaking out and acting earlier, now we have to try and turn the tide back. It's always easier to stop something before it gets momentum, this eroding away has momentum so it will be harder to stop.

Going on also, why is the Pledge of Allegiance not said anymore every morning?? That is an Allegiance to our country? Patriotism is hardly taught anymore, and I just think this is totally sad. The country has turned its back on its Christian roots and we must take at least partial responsibility for looking the other way.
But I ramble on.........I think I shall go home to my family now.

Thank you for the discussion Ringo! I think overall we are on the same page, unless I am mistaken.

We mostly agree, though I think that you and I differ on a few points. I do think that schools often go too far with neutrality.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Gee what is a Supreme Court Decision if it is not a law? And there are more than once instance of visible group prayer being forbidden,not just kids before or after a group study,but also before ALL school sporting events,which used to be the norm.

Again, and for hopefully the last time: that law in 1962 banned MANDATORY school prayer. It did not ban prayer in general. The Supreme Court can't help the way in which their decision has been interpreted. But it was meant to prevent mandatory prayer.
Ringo

 

[Voegelin]

This is the same fight, albeit a more benign conflict than in the past, which has been going on since Anacharsis Cloots and the Culte de la Raison. The Soviets had E. Yaroslavsky and his Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov. Christians, and others, always have to fight to protect their freedom of worship because there are always those eager to take that freedom away.

Those who tell Christians they should not alarmed when their symbols are ordered torn down by a federal judge, not be alarmed when a HS student is denied her right to mention Jesus Christ in a speech, these same people are the ones who lecture us on the "slippery slope" regarding other forms of expression.

Congress tried to outlaw computer generated child pornography and the laws were contested by the same free speech activists who see nothing wrong with censoring religious expression.

Pass a law banning the burning of the American flag? Unconstitutional! Go to court to prevent a prayer at a school board meeting in some town nobody heard of? A defense of the constitution!

The hypocrisy is simply outstanding.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

Those who tell Christians they should not alarmed when their symbols are ordered torn down by a federal judge

Federal judges aren't tearing down the symbols of Christians. Christians can have their own symbols and can't be touched. Federal judges tear down symbols put up and financed by the federal government. Taxpayer dollars shouldn't fund religious symbols.

not be alarmed when a HS student is denied her right to mention Jesus Christ in a speech

If you speak of the case from this spring, she wasn't denied her right ot mention Jesus. She was allowed to mention Jesus and how God affected her life. She was denied to the right to prostelitize to a captive audience in a ceremony funded by taxpayer dollars.

Congress tried to outlaw computer generated child pornography and the laws were contested by the same free speech activists who see nothing wrong with censoring religious expression.

I am sort of uncertain on where I stand on this one. However, child porn isn't banned because it is disgusting. It is banned because it is harmful to children. Drawing pictures of fictional kids doesn't harm children, and as long as it remains nothing more than drawing pictures of fictional children, I can live with this being legal.

Pass a law banning the burning of the American flag? Unconstitutional!

Of course it is! Free speech and expression is most importantly to protect unpopular political expression. Flag burning is political expression. We just don't lock people up for hurting people's feelings or even deeply offending them.

 

[Sennaria]

. The Supreme Court can't help the way in which their decision has been interpreted. But it was meant to prevent mandatory prayer.
Ringo

Thus lies the danger.
What is done on one day and meant to do one thing, down the line, will be tested and tried in the courts and eventually will be interpreted to do differently than the original intention. The original Supreme Court may not have meant it to do what it did, but the later justices sure took advantage of it. In not just a circumstance like this, but in many other decisions. It is the interpretation of law and lawsuits and judgments that opens the door to these decisions doing what they were not originally intended to do. Thus we must stay aware

Sennaria

 

[soblessed53]

I just found out myself that this is all part of the communist manifesto! Very interesting!

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

 

[Maynard Keenan]

The communist manifesto was a book written by Karl Marx in 1848.

 

[Ringo84]

Gee. The Separation of Church and State has been a part of this country since its founding. The Founding Fathers were Communists? That's news to me.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

This is the same fight, albeit a more benign conflict than in the past, which has been going on since Anacharsis Cloots and the Culte de la Raison. The Soviets had E. Yaroslavsky and his Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov. Christians, and others, always have to fight to protect their freedom of worship because there are always those eager to take that freedom away.

Those who tell Christians they should not alarmed when their symbols are ordered torn down by a federal judge, not be alarmed when a HS student is denied her right to mention Jesus Christ in a speech, these same people are the ones who lecture us on the "slippery slope" regarding other forms of expression.

Congress tried to outlaw computer generated child pornography and the laws were contested by the same free speech activists who see nothing wrong with censoring religious expression.

Pass a law banning the burning of the American flag? Unconstitutional! Go to court to prevent a prayer at a school board meeting in some town nobody heard of? A defense of the constitution!

The hypocrisy is simply outstanding.

Exactly what Maynard said, except let me comment on

Those who tell Christians they should not alarmed when their symbols are ordered torn down by a federal judge

That's spin. We're not talking about symbols erected on private property. We're talking religious symbols erected on federal property, thus suggesting preference towards a certain religious POV.
Ringo

 

[soblessed53]

The communist manifesto was a book written by Karl Marx in 1848.

Gee. The Separation of Church and State has been a part of this country since its founding. The Founding Fathers were Communists? That's news to me.
Ringo

I suggest you both read the link!

[SIZE=+2]Communist Goals (1963)[/SIZE]Documention belowCongressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

 

[Ringo84]

I suggest you both read the link!

[SIZE=+2]Communist Goals (1963)[/SIZE]Documention belowCongressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

What you're basically trying to do here is surreptitiously accuse those who stand up for religious freedom Communists. That's a sure sign that you're losing the argument and have very few more arguments to use for your point of view.

I'm no Communist - that should be obvious to anyone with half a brain. But if belief in religious freedom makes me a Communist, well then... I guess I'm a Communist then.
Ringo

 

[soblessed53]

This document states the communists goals in 1963,so all I'm saying is this was extremely enlightening,and for many this shoe most certainly fits!

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

Interested in checking off how much of this has already happened and what IS happening today?