Christian Persecution

[Ringo84]

I'm sorry, Voeglin, but you had me mistaken for an ACLU agent. No, that's OK. Happens all the time.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You know how we protect everyone's freedom here in the US, don't you? The separation of church and state. Religious neutrality. We ask broadcast stations to maintain at least a modicum of political neutrality. We ask corporations to maintain neutrality in dealing with internet information packets. It's NOT too much to ask that our government remain religiously neutral.

So many people have said, "but Christians aren't supposed to remain neutral - they have the freedom to vote, etc" that I'll nip that in the bud now. Nobody - probably not even the ACLU (I don't agree with all of their decisions, by the way) wants that. I'm asking the church establishment to step back - not Christians. At least when it comes to their personal faith.

But there's a difference between expressing personal faith and foisting it upon others. Erecting monuments of the Ten Commandments on federal property foists a symbol of faith. It also violates the principle of religious neutrality.

Now as for the issue you mentioned about mentioning God during a graduation, I can only say that I'm not sure about that. On one hand, I could see how that violates religious neutrality, since everyone in the graduating class probably isn't Christian. On the other hand, to silence the student in the way you described does, admittedly, seem Big Brother-like.

Do you have less rights than your forebears? No. Prayer was never banned. The Bible was never banned. Christianity was never banned. The Ten Commandments were never banned. Christmas was never banned. Faith was never banned. Except for judicial decisions that may or may not overstep boundaries (depending on who you ask),
no measure has ever been taken to ban faith of any kind on a national scale, excepting situations where faith is dangerous (child sacrifices, satanic rituals, etc).

It's admirable to stand up for your faith when you think it's being persecuted. But I think the time comes when we must realize that we have more religious freedom in this country than many other countries in the world. We should take pride in that and take a more proactive role in helping truly persecuted Christians, instead of sitting on our pity pots. And I'm not saying this directly to you, necessarily, but to American Christians in general.
Ringo

 

[soblessed53]

I think you, Ringo, and I have different views on persecution.

Must be so,because I certainly do not see how attacking Christians because they see, and complain about the anti-Christian changes in a country that used to openly embrace God,and now tries to throw a cover over Him,is worthy of ridicule or anger. Now,we have experienced nothing like foreign missionaries have yet.Do you expect us to keep silent until we do? When homosexuals and Muslims have more rights than Christians do in this country,it is because some already allowed too much to happen,BEFORE complaining loudly enough!


How dare anyone say prayer is not banned! There is a LAW AGAINST it,so I call that BANNED! No,of course it can't be prevented privately,but it most certainly has been outlawed publically in school at graduations,and sporting events,so less rights now?You better believe it!

 

[soblessed53]

.

 

[soblessed53]

I'm sorry, Voeglin, but you had me mistaken for an ACLU agent. No, that's OK. Happens all the time.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You know how we protect everyone's freedom here in the US, don't you? The separation of church and state. Religious neutrality. We ask broadcast stations to maintain at least a modicum of political neutrality. We ask corporations to maintain neutrality in dealing with internet information packets. It's NOT too much to ask that our government remain religiously neutral.

So many people have said, "but Christians aren't supposed to remain neutral - they have the freedom to vote, etc" that I'll nip that in the bud now. Nobody - probably not even the ACLU (I don't agree with all of their decisions, by the way) wants that. I'm asking the church establishment to step back - not Christians. At least when it comes to their personal faith.

But there's a difference between expressing personal faith and foisting it upon others. Erecting monuments of the Ten Commandments on federal property foists a symbol of faith. It also violates the principle of religious neutrality.

Now as for the issue you mentioned about mentioning God during a graduation, I can only say that I'm not sure about that. On one hand, I could see how that violates religious neutrality, since everyone in the graduating class probably isn't Christian. On the other hand, to silence the student in the way you described does, admittedly, seem Big Brother-like.

Do you have less rights than your forebears? No. Prayer was never banned. The Bible was never banned. Christianity was never banned. The Ten Commandments were never banned. Christmas was never banned. Faith was never banned. Except for judicial decisions that may or may not overstep boundaries (depending on who you ask),
no measure has ever been taken to ban faith of any kind on a national scale, excepting situations where faith is dangerous (child sacrifices, satanic rituals, etc).

It's admirable to stand up for your faith when you think it's being persecuted. But I think the time comes when we must realize that we have more religious freedom in this country than many other countries in the world. We should take pride in that and take a more proactive role in helping truly persecuted Christians, instead of sitting on our pity pots. And I'm not saying this directly to you, necessarily, but to American Christians in general.
Ringo

Prayer in Public School - The History
Prayer in public schools became an issue in 1960: Madalyn Murray O'Hair sued the Baltimore MD school system on behalf of her son William J Murray, because he was being forced to participate in prayer in schools. Ultimately, her actions and the actions of the American Atheist Organization resulted in the Supreme Court ruling of 1962.

The Supreme Court's previous last major school-prayer ruling was announced in 1992, and barred clergy-led prayers -- invocations and benedictions -- at public school graduation ceremonies. "The Constitution forbids the state to exact religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school graduation," the court said then. The ruling was viewed by many as a strong reaffirmation of the highest court's 1962 decision banning organized, officially sponsored prayers from public schools.


But in 1993, the justices refused to review a federal appeals court ruling in a Texas case that allowed student-led prayers at graduation ceremonies. That appeals court ruling, which is binding law in Louisiana and Mississippi, conflicts with another federal appeals court's decision barring student-led graduation prayers in nine Western states.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/praye...lic-school.htm

 

[Maynard Keenan]

I'll simply address school prayer.

If the government allows teacher-led prayer, it can't tell the teachers to whom they can pray or they clearly violate the constitution. One teacher could lead the class in some standard Christian prayer. Perhaps a Catholic teacher leads a Hail Mary. A muslim teacher prays to Allah. A pagan leads the class in prayer to multiple gods.

Aside from this, I see any teacher led prayer being unconstitutional. A teacher is a government employee acting on official duty. They are in front of a captive audience. Their job is to teach the kids and young children are not going to accurately separate academic teaching from religious leadership.

 

[Ringo84]

Must be so,because I certainly do not see how attacking Christians because they see, and complain about the anti-Christian changes in a country that used to openly embrace God,and now tries to throw a cover over Him,is worthy of ridicule or anger. Now,we have experienced nothing like foreign missionaries have yet.Do you expect us to keep silent until we do? When homosexuals and Muslims have more rights than Christians do in this country,it is because some already allowed too much to happen,BEFORE complaining loudly enough!


How dare anyone say prayer is not banned! There is a LAW AGAINST it,so I call that BANNED! No,of course it can't be prevented privately,but it most certainly has been outlawed publically in school at graduations,and sporting events,so less rights now?You better believe it!

Must be so,because I certainly do not see how attacking Christians because they see, and complain about the anti-Christian changes in a country that used to openly embrace God,and now tries to throw a cover over Him,is worthy of ridicule or anger. Now,we have experienced nothing like foreign missionaries have yet.Do you expect us to keep silent until we do? When homosexuals and Muslims have more rights than Christians do in this country,it is because some already allowed too much to happen,BEFORE complaining loudly enough!

The key word in that entire block of text is "Now,we have experienced nothing like foreign missionaries have yet". That's exactly my point. American Christians have a lot to be thankful for in this country. And I don't believe for a New York minute that things will ever become as bad as they are abroad, considering how much history this country admittedly has with religion. I don't know why some American Christians have a persecution complex, but I suggest they get over it.

How dare anyone say prayer is not banned! There is a LAW AGAINST it,so I call that BANNED! No,of course it can't be prevented privately,but it most certainly has been outlawed publically in school at graduations,and sporting events,so less rights now?You better believe it!

PRAYER IS NOT BANNED. There is no national law against it. It has not been banned in public school - that's mandatory schoolwide prayer, where they force kids to pray to God despite their religious background. You are absolutely wrong. The only place where Christians in the US have less rights is in their heads.

Sorry. I can't let such misrepresentations stand without a challenge. I don't have a problem with you, really, but I will defend these principles as much as I can.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Prayer in Public School - The History
Prayer in public schools became an issue in 1960: Madalyn Murray O'Hair sued the Baltimore MD school system on behalf of her son William J Murray, because he was being forced to participate in prayer in schools. Ultimately, her actions and the actions of the American Atheist Organization resulted in the Supreme Court ruling of 1962.

The Supreme Court's previous last major school-prayer ruling was announced in 1992, and barred clergy-led prayers -- invocations and benedictions -- at public school graduation ceremonies. "The Constitution forbids the state to exact religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school graduation," the court said then. The ruling was viewed by many as a strong reaffirmation of the highest court's 1962 decision banning organized, officially sponsored prayers from public schools.


But in 1993, the justices refused to review a federal appeals court ruling in a Texas case that allowed student-led prayers at graduation ceremonies. That appeals court ruling, which is binding law in Louisiana and Mississippi, conflicts with another federal appeals court's decision barring student-led graduation prayers in nine Western states.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/praye...lic-school.htm

Key words:

"The Constitution forbids the state to exact religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school graduation," the court said then.

Our government can't force people, regardless of their religious background and views, to pray to a Christian God. It's wrong. How would you feel if you were made to pray to Buddha every morning?

a strong reaffirmation of the highest court's 1962 decision banning organized, officially sponsored prayers from public schools.

"...decision banning organized, officially sponsored prayers from public school". Did you miss that?

Nobody has a problem with kids praying in school. The problem comes when the school tries to force kids to pray to God. It's wrong, and it violates religious neutrality.
Ringo

 

[soblessed53]

No one was ever "FORCED" to pray either! Just because the class did it,does not mean anyone HAD to do it. Do you suppose any child would have been punished if they hadn't? If so,that was all that needed to be changed.

You say no one has a problem with kids praying in school,that is NOT TRUE! I have heard kids say they were not allowed to have a circle prayer before or after their after school study group! Group visible prayer is not allowed on school grounds!

 

[soblessed53]

Key words:

"The Constitution forbids the state to exact religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school graduation," the court said then.

Our government can't force people, regardless of their religious background and views, to pray to a Christian God. It's wrong. How would you feel if you were made to pray to Buddha every morning?



"...decision banning organized, officially sponsored prayers from public school". Did you miss that?

Nobody has a problem with kids praying in school. The problem comes when the school tries to force kids to pray to God. It's wrong, and it violates religious neutrality.
Ringo

And the difference IS?
You said "prayer has never been banned"!

 

[Sennaria]

I think the debate here is all in symantics. Are Christians Persecuted here in the US as in other countries such as India or China? No, hardly at all.

What we do have here is an eroding away of the Christian foundation on which this country was founded. That is what is scary. So we should sit idly by on watch the principles on which this country was founded just go bye bye? Hardly.

I think another debate that is going on here, in regards to school prayer is the difference between what is written, what is law, and what is ACTUALLY PRACTICED. School Districts and schools are so fearful of being sued that they always err on the banning of Bibles or Christian Literature or T-Shirts or prayer. In reality, this does go on and it goes on every day. The schools will err on the side of NOT letting a group of kids sponsor a bible study et al. This does happen and it does happen every day.
Just because it doesn't hit the evening news (imagine that *eyeroll*) does not mean it is not occuring and occuring nationwide.

But again, like I said, this is not truly persecution. It is more an eroding of our countries Christian principles. However, if kept unchecked, one day, it will be a true persecution.

Sennaria

 

[soblessed53]

I think the debate here is all in symantics. Are Christians Persecuted here in the US as in other countries such as India or China? No, hardly at all.

What we do have here is an eroding away of the Christian foundation on which this country was founded. That is what is scary. So we should sit idly by on watch the principles on which this country was founded just go bye bye? Hardly.

I think another debate that is going on here, in regards to school prayer is the difference between what is written, what is law, and what is ACTUALLY PRACTICED. School Districts and schools are so fearful of being sued that they always err on the banning of Bibles or Christian Literature or T-Shirts or prayer. In reality, this does go on and it goes on every day. The schools will err on the side of NOT letting a group of kids sponsor a bible study et al. This does happen and it does happen every day.
Just because it doesn't hit the evening news (imagine that *eyeroll*) does not mean it is not occuring and occuring nationwide.

But again, like I said, this is not truly persecution. It is more an eroding of our countries Christian principles. However, if kept unchecked, one day, it will be a true persecution.

Sennaria

I agree, totally! It's good to see that someone else is aware of what is going on in our country.

 

[Ringo84]

No one was ever "FORCED" to pray either! Just because the class did it,does not mean anyone HAD to do it. Do you suppose any child would have been punished if they hadn't? If so,that was all that needed to be changed.

You say no one has a problem with kids praying in school,that is NOT TRUE! I have heard kids say they were not allowed to have a circle prayer before or after their after school study group! Group visible prayer is not allowed on school grounds!

No one was ever "FORCED" to pray either! Just because the class did it,does not mean anyone HAD to do it. Do you suppose any child would have been punished if they hadn't? If so,that was all that needed to be changed.

Yes they were. It was religious pressure: pray or you look like a dirty atheist in front of your friends and teacher. There's no need to put that kind of religious burden on kids in public school. If it's so important for the to become Christians, let the church seek an active role in attracting them, instead of having the public school do the church's work!

You say no one has a problem with kids praying in school,that is NOT TRUE! I have heard kids say they were not allowed to have a circle prayer before or after their after school study group! Group visible prayer is not allowed on school grounds!

One example is supposed to indicate hostitlity towards prayer? Please.

And the difference IS?
You said "prayer has never been banned"!

You don't understand. Officially mandated prayer means mandatory schoolwide prayer. THAT was banned. There's a big difference between that and prayer in general. Nobody has a problem with prayer in general.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

I think the debate here is all in symantics. Are Christians Persecuted here in the US as in other countries such as India or China? No, hardly at all.

What we do have here is an eroding away of the Christian foundation on which this country was founded. That is what is scary. So we should sit idly by on watch the principles on which this country was founded just go bye bye? Hardly.

I think another debate that is going on here, in regards to school prayer is the difference between what is written, what is law, and what is ACTUALLY PRACTICED. School Districts and schools are so fearful of being sued that they always err on the banning of Bibles or Christian Literature or T-Shirts or prayer. In reality, this does go on and it goes on every day. The schools will err on the side of NOT letting a group of kids sponsor a bible study et al. This does happen and it does happen every day.
Just because it doesn't hit the evening news (imagine that *eyeroll*) does not mean it is not occuring and occuring nationwide.

But again, like I said, this is not truly persecution. It is more an eroding of our countries Christian principles. However, if kept unchecked, one day, it will be a true persecution.

Sennaria

I think the debate here is all in symantics. Are Christians Persecuted here in the US as in other countries such as India or China? No, hardly at all.

THANK YOU.

What we do have here is an eroding away of the Christian foundation on which this country was founded. That is what is scary. So we should sit idly by on watch the principles on which this country was founded just go bye bye? Hardly.

Well, maybe, but what you see today is a concerted effort to combine religion and government. The Christian church was never supposed to be allied with the government; the two are vastly different bodies with vastly different goals and concerns.

I think another debate that is going on here, in regards to school prayer is the difference between what is written, what is law, and what is ACTUALLY PRACTICED. School Districts and schools are so fearful of being sued that they always err on the banning of Bibles or Christian Literature or T-Shirts or prayer. In reality, this does go on and it goes on every day. The schools will err on the side of NOT letting a group of kids sponsor a bible study et al. This does happen and it does happen every day.
Just because it doesn't hit the evening news (imagine that *eyeroll*) does not mean it is not occuring and occuring nationwide.

That's true. I think that school districts often err on the "ban" side too often, though I will never support mandatory schoolwide prayer. Still, this is hardly an example of prayer being "banned".
Ringo

 

[Sennaria]

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[/size][/color][/font]You don't understand. Officially mandated prayer means mandatory schoolwide prayer. THAT was banned. There's a big difference between that and prayer in general. Nobody has a problem with prayer in general.
Ringo

This is NOT what is going on in the schools and any Christian parent who has kids in the schools knows this if they pay attention or are active at all in the schools. There may be exceptions, but the norm is it is STRONGLY discouraged and disallowed.

 

[Sennaria]

[/size][/color][/font], though I will never support mandatory schoolwide prayer. Still, this is hardly an example of prayer being "banned".
Ringo

I will agree with you here, I don't want mandatory schoolwide prayer either, as I don't want my kids praying to other Gods, and if the door is open for one mandatorily, it should be open to others. HOWEVER, I do want them to be able to practice their religion (and it should go for others as well) with no concern of repercussion from officials, and this is not the case at this time.
And I say this as I know our God is stronger than any other in the schools and I would NOT worry about any influence another religion would have on my children, but there is a freedom of religion and where one should be allowed to practice; they all should be. I would stand on the faith in my God to protect them from any other religion, just like I do out in the world.

Sennaria

 

[CardinalBaseball]

I think another debate that is going on here, in regards to school prayer is the difference between what is written, what is law, and what is ACTUALLY PRACTICED. School Districts and schools are so fearful of being sued that they always err on the banning of Bibles or Christian Literature or T-Shirts or prayer. In reality, this does go on and it goes on every day. The schools will err on the side of NOT letting a group of kids sponsor a bible study et al. This does happen and it does happen every day.
Just because it doesn't hit the evening news (imagine that *eyeroll*) does not mean it is not occuring and occuring nationwide.

But again, like I said, this is not truly persecution. It is more an eroding of our countries Christian principles. However, if kept unchecked, one day, it will be a true persecution.

Sennaria

This is NOT what is going on in the schools and any Christian parent who has kids in the schools knows this if they pay attention or are active at all in the schools. There may be exceptions, but the norm is it is STRONGLY discouraged and disallowed.

Sennaria, how do you know it is "the norm"? Have you been visiting every school in the country? Or did you get this from some Christian website? I can say from experience that it is not discouraged as you say it is.

 

[Sennaria]

Sennaria, how do you know it is "the norm"? Have you been visiting every school in the country? Or did you get this from some Christian website? I can say from experience that it is not discouraged as you say it is.

I have been very very very involved in schools for many years trying to educate parents as to the changes that were evolving via curriculum and etc. No I did not get it off any website. I see it from personal experience and research and talking with others who have or had kids in school from all over the country. And I don't take anyone's word for anything, I researched and backed up everything I was told and spent many a time before state school boards.
And I'd never be so blatantly idiotic to even say it was EVERY school in the country. But it is more rampant than you give it off to be. So my experience is definitely different than yours.

 

[CardinalBaseball]

Could you show us some how that it's as rampant as you say it is? Show us some of your research.

 

[Sennaria]

Could you show us some how that it's as rampant as you say it is? Show us some of your research.

No, because if I did, it still would not be believed by you and this is not what the forums are for. It's not hard to find, look for yourself. I am not here to prove myself on anything. All anyone has to do is look at the state of our schools and they clearly show something is wrong.

My main point in saying anything at all in this thread is to agree 1) That Christians are not "persecuted" persay in the US, but that there is a severe degradation in our Christian foundation.
And to say that I have seen where prayer and the Bible have been banned from schools. Is it in every school in the country. No, as I said before. Thank God that there are still some schools that have some common sense.
It is up to you to determine what you believe, because no matter what anyone tells you or shows you, you won't believe it anyway. You have your mind made up. I'm not here to debate what is going on in the schools. The schools and what happens in there shows for themselves.
I am here to encourage people to pray for our schools, to pray for our kids and to not have their heads in the sand as to what is going on in the school.

On another note: I also have seen wonderous things happen in schools because of prayer and because of kids who are absolutely willing to fight for their right to have a bible study. Prayer at the pole is another good thing that happens once a year, though still not at every school, but there are encouraging signs.
We have 5-6 years to reach these kids before they become an adult, and the chances of them turning to God after becoming an adult become even slimmer. This is our next generation we are talking about. Try talking to them. Find out why they are cutting themselves. Find out why they are so sexually active. Find out why they are shooting each other, raping each other. Find out why they are so lost.
People need to quit arguing symantics and the what if's and what are's and get into the pits and find out for yourself what is going on in the schools and with our kids from elementary to College.
Like I said, you don't have to look far.

Sennaria

 

[Ringo84]

I will agree with you here, I don't want mandatory schoolwide prayer either, as I don't want my kids praying to other Gods, and if the door is open for one mandatorily, it should be open to others. HOWEVER, I do want them to be able to practice their religion (and it should go for others as well) with no concern of repercussion from officials, and this is not the case at this time.
And I say this as I know our God is stronger than any other in the schools and I would NOT worry about any influence another religion would have on my children, but there is a freedom of religion and where one should be allowed to practice; they all should be. I would stand on the faith in my God to protect them from any other religion, just like I do out in the world.

Sennaria

This is NOT what is going on in the schools and any Christian parent who has kids in the schools knows this if they pay attention or are active at all in the schools. There may be exceptions, but the norm is it is STRONGLY discouraged and disallowed.

Wrong. Prayer is not banned in public school any more than lead pencils are banned. There has never been any law against prayer in general (only mandatory prayer).

I will agree with you here, I don't want mandatory schoolwide prayer either, as I don't want my kids praying to other Gods, and if the door is open for one mandatorily, it should be open to others. HOWEVER, I do want them to be able to practice their religion (and it should go for others as well) with no concern of repercussion from officials, and this is not the case at this time.

OK, but the religious neutrality in public school isn't to protect only Christian students. It's to protect ALL students. It is not the job of the public school system to save children. That's the church's job.

And I say this as I know our God is stronger than any other in the schools and I would NOT worry about any influence another religion would have on my children, but there is a freedom of religion and where one should be allowed to practice; they all should be. I would stand on the faith in my God to protect them from any other religion, just like I do out in the world.

It's not that Christians aren't allowed to practice their religion in public schools. It's that the public school system should not officially endorse a particular religion. It's simply too problematic.
Ringo