Christian martyr complex vs. atheist martyr complex

[Ophiolite]

If it comes down to a choice between antiquated idealism and belief in something or a passive and nihilistic belief in nothing (or worse, the self), then I know I would prefer the former.

If there are no ideals worth dying for, what's the point in living?

There are things I would hope I would be willing to die for, but they don't include what you seem to place a value on.

 

[Ophiolite]

You keep calling it cowardice -- that marks a notable lack of empathy.





...according to Raskolnikov. Careful, you might start to convince yourself that she deserved it.



Once again, you're equating cold-blooded murder with a failure to act. Kind of a hard sell, that.



You wouldn't have to -- the history books will do it for you.



Well there's the thing -- Peter had other options. With Jesus down (and for all intents and purposes, out), going underground was the best one... and in order to do that with any measure of success, one occasionally has to *gasp* lie.



If the standard is "don't lie even if telling the truth gets you needlessly killed," then the standard is absurd...



And therein lies the forgiveness. Jesus did more than preach compassion, he practiced it.

Still not seeing how Peter's life was required of him the first time. Sure, he was ashamed of what he had done, what with Jesus standing right there... awkward....



Yeah, maybe I have been spending too much time around here.



Ooo... tell me more about who I am -- this is fun!



Hardly surprising -- the Gospels tend to depict the disciples as... disappointing... in many ways. John in particular, where Jesus reminds Peter, has a couple of unique stories near the beginning, IIRC, where some of the 12 were a little slow on the uptake... but then again, so was everyone else -- and for good reason... but I digress.



Who says I need a god at all? The world is full of interesting people to learn from. Fret not, though -- when it comes to Christianity, I'll happily accept your blackball.



And Peter found that point about 30 years after you would have preferred.

It is one of the peculiarities of CF that what I understand to be key Christian attitudes and principles are often best exemplified by the posts of atheists and agnostics, such as yourself. I'll stop there, else I'll be infringing CF rules and causing collateral damage to those Christian members who do honour to their beliefs.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It is one of the peculiarities of CF that what I understand to be key Christian attitudes and principles are often best exemplified by the posts of atheists and agnostics, such as yourself. I'll stop there, else I'll be infringing CF rules and causing collateral damage to those Christian members who do honour to their beliefs.

It depends on what one means by "Christian," I suppose. In lines with the ideas expressed by Jesus Christ, or by the Institution which has placed him as their figurehead.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I don't think this person understands the motivations of Christian martyrdom... at all. It's more than just about fearing Hell, but also wanting to live a life of integrity. I may no longer identify as a Christian (as defined by this website), but I can recognize the desire for people to live with integrity, even at personal cost.

Is addressing me?

 

[FireDragon76]

Is addressing me?

No, it's addressed to everyone in general, and I'm speaking about Ranunculus's opinion that people merely choose martyrdom out of fear of Hell.

For one thing, I very much doubt every Christian martyr has believed in Hell, at least as Evangelicals would understand it.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, it's addressed to everyone in general, and I'm speaking about Ranunculus's opinion that people merely choose martyrdom out of fear of Hell.

For one thing, I very much doubt every Christian martyr has believed in Hell, at least as Evangelicals would understand it.

I very much doubt Christian martyrs were as progressive as you wish them to be.

 

[FireDragon76]

I very much doubt Christian martyrs were as progressive as you wish them to be.

I never claimed they were. There have been people put to death that self-identified as Christians who did not hold to orthodox beliefs, however, such as Michael Servetus. And plenty of other Christian religious dissenters have been persecuted, so it seems reasonable to assume people have possibly died for those beliefs.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I never claimed they were. There have been people put to death that self-identified as Christians who did not hold to orthodox beliefs, however, such as Michael Servetus.

Yeah and no one reveres him. He wasn't a Christian.

If it's your contention that there were Christian martyrs and they didn't believe in the 'Evangelical' idea of hell, I don't think you know much about Christian martyrs.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah and no one reveres him. He wasn't a Christian.

"No one"? Unitarians revere him and there is a monument to him in Geneva. Now they might not be considered Christians by most people on Christian Forums, but historically, they were a movement that came out of the Radical Reformation, a Christian religious movement.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

"No one"? Unitarians revere him and there is a monument to him in Geneva. Now they might not be considered Christians by most people on Christian Forums, but historically, they were a movement that came out of the Radical Reformation, a Christian religious movement.

Unitarians aren't Christian. Unitarians aren't really anything these day.

Why believe the Christian martyrs denied hell?

 

[FireDragon76]

Unitarians aren't Christian. Unitarians aren't really anything these day.

So insulting Christians like you is not OK, but it's OK to insult the many non-Christians?

Unitarians at one time were widespread throughout central and Eastern Europe. Transylvania still has a very old Unitarian community. They all trace their teachings back to men like Servetus.

Why believe the Christian martyrs denied hell?

I never said they all did, just that it's conceivable that some did not believe in it, at least not in the sense typically articulated on these forums.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

So insulting Christians like you is not OK, but it's OK to insult the many non-Christians?

Unitarians at one time were widespread throughout central and Eastern Europe. Transylvania still has a very old Unitarian community. They all trace their teachings back to men like Servetus.

Whose insulting the Unitarians? What's their legacy? The Unitarian Universalist Church which literally believes in nothing. I'm sure Michael Servetus would be proud of his theological children. (More likely he would be horrified at the failure of Unitarianism).

But no matter how you word it, they aren't Christians. Just as Mormons aren't Christians. Just as JWs aren't Christians.

I never said they all did, just that it's conceivable that some did not believe in it, at least not in the sense typically articulated on these forums.

Some who? Give some examples. I can only think of one who is respected and that would be Origen. Still he was a confessor and not a martyr and while he was respected, his theological vision was largely rejected.

 

[rjs330]

What a cowardly way to live one's life. Never risking anything, never believing something worth dying for. Legitimately Are you a man or a woman?

Or mouse?

 

[rjs330]

No, it's addressed to everyone in general, and I'm speaking about Ranunculus's opinion that people merely choose martyrdom out of fear of Hell.

For one thing, I very much doubt every Christian martyr has believed in Hell, at least as Evangelicals would understand it.

For the Christian we don't really fear hell. I'm not afraid of hell. God promised me that Jesus is my righteousness. And as long as I recognize that and strive to follow Christ, I'm good to go. I am pursuades that nothing can separate me from the love of God. He who has begun a good work in me will complete it. God continues to cleanse me from all unrighteousness for Jesus sake.

Christians look forward to seeing Jesus. And in the time of marterdom they are knowing who they are going to be with. To die is gain.

 

[FireDragon76]

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Christians look forward to seeing Jesus. And in the time of marterdom they are knowing who they are going to be with. To die is gain.

And yet, until then, you'll still look both ways before crossing the street.