Christian conversions

[Sketcher]

This is a very interesting point. I always think about this. Salvation by works vs salvation by grace. Some Christian churches I think believe in salvation by works - they might interpret it away saying it’s eventually grace, but in essence, it’s still works.

Anyways. I don’t know if it’s really seen to be too good to be true. Maybe perceived to be unfair? Unjust? Both ways - for the saved and for the condemned.

From my observation, Christians might become not as motivated or serious about their faith once realizing “they got their guaranteed ticket to heaven”… It’s a big fault too, in my opinion. For example, I saw some nasty behaviour by most Christian missionaries I met in the mission field away from anybody’s control… No accountability, they break bad… As for Muslim missionaries, as a rule they would walk the talk in similar circumstances, though not without bad apples among them as well of course

I can agree that belief in works-based religion can light some fires under some butts, but that only works for a while, given human nature. People in those religions sin too, and they are aware of it.

Also, as a Christian, I'm not perfect, but the idea of going out and sinning as much as I want to because I have a guaranteed ticket to Heaven anyway is repulsive to me. Among true believers this desire to obey God will be there at some level. There was a heretical group called the Ranters in England that rejected among other things the necessity of obedience. They didn't get very far.

I'm sorry that the bad stuff happened. It shouldn't happen ever. Out of curiosity, where did you see these missionaries?

 

[Tolworth John]

I do my own research about Jesus and so far the jury is out…

Lee Strobel, and James warner Wallace are two people who when challenged to investigate the claims of Jesus did so as a top investigative journalist and as a coldcase detective.

When someone has invented the wheel why try to reinvent it.

Read there research.

 

[James_Lai]

Lee Strobel, and James warner Wallace are two people who when challenged to investigate the claims of Jesus did so as a top investigative journalist and as a coldcase detective.

When someone has invented the wheel why try to reinvent it.

Read there research.

Thank you.

Yes, I’ve read them and other authors. Watched the Case for Christ the movie on Strobel’s book and also God Not Dead 1 and 2, Strobel himself appears in part 2

I have been looking and researching intensely.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you.

Yes, I’ve read them and other authors. Watched the Case for Christ the movie on Strobel’s book and also God Not Dead 1 and 2, Strobel himself appears in part 2

I have been looking and researching intensely. Beyond reading books and scholarly blogs/listening to audio podcasts or radio programs/watching documentaries or lectures or testimonies etc. Attending university and church courses, going to church services in different kinds of churches, speaking with pastors and priests, etc Also synagogues and rabbis and Judaist materials. Travelled to Biblical lands. Visited museums, archeological excavations open to the public, holy sites, tombs of prophets or churches built supposedly on Christ’s or apostle’s supposed localities of Biblical events, containing supposed relics, holy water springs or trees etc. Listening to different types of liturgical or praise worship music/singing. Learned some basics of the Scripture original languages, studied about the extant manuscripts and textual traditions, church history and the history of the canons and of the translations of the Bible.

Theoretical, practical, historical… Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, JW, Mormon, etc

... It's interesting to me that you didn't just lead with this when you came onto CF and began inquiring. So, have you done all of the above since October 22? Wow! You really get around!

Here's a link to your first post [Many questions]

 

[James_Lai]

... It's interesting to me

Researching for many years since university when first hearing of Christ… Many questions still

 

[James_Lai]

I can agree that belief in works-based religion can light some fires under some butts, but that only works for a while, given human nature. People in those religions sin too, and they are aware of it.

Also, as a Christian, I'm not perfect, but the idea of going out and sinning as much as I want to because I have a guaranteed ticket to Heaven anyway is repulsive to me. Among true believers this desire to obey God will be there at some level. There was a heretical group called the Ranters in England that rejected among other things the necessity of obedience. They didn't get very far.

I'm sorry that the bad stuff happened. It shouldn't happen ever. Out of curiosity, where did you see these missionaries?

if we take the majority of people, then I think the tendency is to be careless if there’s an idea of no responsibility for your actions

 

[James_Lai]

The Bible Belt is in the American South.

I don't live there, but I have briefly visited.

You'll find conservative and liberal churches all over the place. My church is evangelical and conservative in doctrine, though perhaps you could say we're more moderate in terms of traditional practice. I suppose you could say we value doctrine, evangelical calling, and traditions in that order. Our doctrine informs our high priority on loving people in the community. So I prefer and recommend churches like that. I'm sure there are plenty that exist inside and outside the Bible Belt.

I don't know much about Christianity in Canada, but a church that mine has worked with did have a pastor who moved up to Kingswood University for a while before he moved again. So you might find a good enclave of Christianity around there. Also, there are Canadian believers on CF that I have chatted with over the years who are as solid as Christians from the US. They're from all over Canada.

Maybe I should plan a visit to Texas one day. Or Florida. Yes here at the forum probably very dedicated Christians, and I surely met some like that. I’m talking about the overall majority

I know generalizing is never good, but I’m trying to understand why things the way they are, and some statistical observations are noticeable and may indicate some underlying reasons

 

[Sketcher]

if we take the majority of people, then I think the tendency is to be careless if there’s an idea of no responsibility for your actions

But Christianity doesn't teach that there's no responsibility for your actions. Part of becoming and being a Christian is confessing and renouncing your sins, and that requires taking responsibility for those sins. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, which is different from taking responsibility.

Maybe I should plan a visit to Texas one day. Or Florida. Yes here at the forum probably very dedicated Christians, and I surely met some like that. I’m talking about the overall majority

I know generalizing is never good, but I’m trying to understand why things the way they are, and some statistical observations are noticeable and may indicate some underlying reasons

Honestly, both of those are big states, and you'll probably meet unbelievers in both places.

 

[James_Lai]

But Christianity doesn't teach that there's no responsibility for your actions. Part of becoming and being a Christian is confessing and renouncing your sins, and that requires taking responsibility for those sins. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, which is different from taking responsibility.

I understand. If you’ve got your carrot and there’s no stick, there isn’t much motivation left… Yes people with built-in high morals will be driven no matter what. If you take an average Joe, he would think, if I’m saved I’m saved. Not that he’ll run to sin, but there won’t be much stopping him either. “Anything goes”

 

[Sketcher]

I understand. If you’ve got your carrot and there’s no stick, there isn’t much motivation left… Yes people with built-in high morals will be driven no matter what. If you take average Joe, if I’m saved I’m saved. Not that he’ll write sinning, but there won’t be much stopping him either. “Anything goes”

Honestly, if it were like that, Christians would behave a lot worse. I don't think we'd have the moral leaders we've had throughout the centuries either.

 

[James_Lai]

Honestly, if it were like that, Christians would behave a lot worse. I don't think we'd have the moral leaders we've had throughout the centuries either.

Christian societies indeed have been behaving pretty badly… Wars, slavery, genocide, exploitation of colonies, discrimination, recently amoral Hollywood and rock music industry etc. Non-Christian world honestly looks at it with horror. Some nations were hurt pretty bad and don’t like Christianity (like Canadian first nations with trauma of children abuse/genocide in Christian residential schools)

 

[James_Lai]

Honestly, if it were like that, Christians would behave a lot worse. I don't think we'd have the moral leaders we've had throughout the centuries either.

So in my view “saved by works” motivates better overall, and makes more sense in regards to justice. Judgement for all people based on behaviour, not on accepting a set of beliefs. Otherwise to keep this idea of “saved by grace” just, you need to add a postmortem chance to hear the gospel and accept it… Otherwise, automatic hell for an unbeliever doesn’t seem fair: there could be so many reasons for the unbelief…

Religion isn’t the only guardian of morality and behaviour though. We have secular values and institutions, like law enforcement

 

[Sketcher]

Christian societies indeed have been behaving pretty badly… Wars, slavery, genocide, exploitation of colonies, discrimination, recently amoral Hollywood and rock music industry etc. Non-Christian world honestly looks at it with horror. Some nations were hurt pretty bad and don’t like Christianity (like Canadian first nations with trauma of children abuse/genocide in Christian residential schools)

Hollywood and the rock music industry were spearheaded by unbelievers.
The resurgence of slavery was tragic, but it was Christians that brought an end to it and set the tone for it being made illegal in non-Christian countries as well. If those Christians believed they could do and get away with anything, I don't think they would have rocked the boat on that.
As bad as wars are, the Catholics did what they thought they could to mitigate them by establishing customs that knights and soldiers had to follow. One can easily say they didn't go far enough and I would be inclined to agree with them, but without those, the wars would have still been fought and they would have been consistently worse.

So in my view “saved by works” motivates better overall, and makes more sense in regards to justice. Judgement for all people based on behaviour, not on accepting a set of beliefs.

Christianity teaches that we are judged by our behavior, and that is the problem. Our deeds cannot merit justification. God made an amnesty plan, which comes through faith in Christ.

Otherwise to keep this idea of “saved by grace” just, you need to add a postmortem chance to hear the gospel and accept it… Otherwise, automatic hell for an unbeliever doesn’t seem fair: there could be so many reasons for the unbelief…

I believe that chance may exist for those who never had the opportunity to hear about Christ, since it appears to me that 1 Peter 3:19 may have room for it - though only those who sinned before Noah's flood are explicitly mentioned in verse 20, so I cannot be sure. If the chance exists after death, I believe it is a fair one with no advantages above and beyond what people who do hear about Christ in this world get.

Religion isn’t the only guardian of morality and behaviour though. We have secular values and institutions, like law enforcement

Secular values and institutions inherited a moral culture that was formed by religious ideas. I don't know of any secular beliefs of true value that don't have beliefs in their foundations that religious people thought of first.

 

[Tolworth John]

Thank you.

Yes, I’ve read them and other authors. Watched the Case for Christ the movie on Strobel’s book and also God Not Dead 1 and 2, Strobel himself appears in part 2

I have been looking and researching intensely.

And your arguement that Jesus did not rise from the dead is?

 

[James_Lai]

And your arguement that Jesus did not rise from the dead is?

No arguments for or against. I’m impartial. Same for similar events in other religions, for example how Lord Krishna upon his death ascended into his transcendent abode (8-9 century BCE). It’s somewhat reminiscent of Jesus’s resurrection.

 

[Tolworth John]

No arguments for or against. I’m impartial. Same for similar events in other religions, for example how Lord Krishna upon his death ascended into his transcendent abode (8-9 century BCE). It’s somewhat reminiscent of Jesus’s resurrection.

Except for the lack of eyewitnesses who recorded it within the lifetime of other eyewitnesses.
Historians date Pauls testimony of his encounter on the road to Damacus to being written down between 3 - 6 years after the event.

What is the historians view on the period between Krishnas ascention and it being written down?

 

[James_Lai]

Except for the lack of eyewitnesses who recorded it within the lifetime of other eyewitnesses.
Historians date Pauls testimony of his encounter on the road to Damacus to being written down between 3 - 6 years after the event.

What is the historians view on the period between Krishnas ascention and it being written down?

Historians argue even about more recent events. In history, being closer to certain events in time means nothing. Some early records could be mythical, but later records could be based on real data.

Did Jesus or Krishna even exist or were legendary figures? The jury's out.

The teaching of Jesus is powerful and transformational nevertheless.

 

[Andrewn]

Anyways, it made me very interested to visit the more deeply Christian regions. Any recommendations?

You don't have to travel anywhere. You can watch Southern Baptists on Daystar all day long.

 

[hedrick]

The OP doesn't seem to be about preparation. In many traditions there's some kind of preparation required. Rather, he's talking about the experience.

I think there are major cultural differences here. We have churches where people shout hallelujah all the time and are rolling in the aisles, and we have churches where the deepest experience is in silence. In college I attended a Quaker meeting, which may at times be an hour of silence. I wouldn't assume that one is more committed than another, but their commitment may be experienced differently.

Americans in general are reluctant to show feelings in public. My impression is that the Middle Eastern cultures are much more likely to show affection and other emotions in public. I'd expect some of that to follow Muslims even in the US.

 

[Andrewn]

This is a very interesting point. I always think about this. Salvation by works vs salvation by grace. Some Christian churches I think believe in salvation by works - they might interpret it away saying it’s eventually grace, but in essence, it’s still works.

The dichotomy may not be as sharp as it seems except in Calvinism and partial Calvinism (OSAS). The Lord Jesus frequently distinguished people into the categories of righteous and unrighteous. You're familiar w/ the Bible so I will not quote verses. Just, as an example, there is the parable for the sheep and goats. But, even Greek philosophers before Christ realized that people cannot be perfectly righteous. I guess one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to realize this . So, even in non-Christian religions you find that gods are being worshipped.

If one reads Romans chapters 7 & 8 back to back, the image becomes clear that even Jews who had the Torah could not live a righteous life, and that God finally condemned the power of sin in Jesus' flesh as he became humanity's representative. Thus salvation comes by grace to those who do their best to live virtuous lives by his power. This faith is unique to Christianity but in no way implies that the unrighteous would be saved while they live in worldly greed.

Anyways. I don’t know if it’s really seen to be too good to be true. Maybe perceived to be unfair? Unjust? Both ways - for the saved and for the condemned.

From my observation, Christians might become not as motivated or serious about their faith once realizing “they got their guaranteed ticket to heaven”… It’s a big fault too, in my opinion.

This is a comment on a segment of Christianity with theology that I do not accept. It may even lead to feelings of superiority for being saved and the other person is not. Or even worse: he is not predestined to salvation.

if we take the majority of people, then I think the tendency is to be careless if there’s an idea of no responsibility for your actions

This will introduce one of 2 reactions: a) rejection: my behavior is not so bad to deserve hell; or b) acceptance: this leads to mental illness: hopelessness, anxiety, guilt, etc.

I understand. If you’ve got your carrot and there’s no stick, there isn’t much motivation left… Yes people with built-in high morals will be driven no matter what. If you take an average Joe, he would think, if I’m saved I’m saved. Not that he’ll run to sin, but there won’t be much stopping him either. “Anything goes”

It is so much better and easier with positive motivation by reciprocating the love of God who is love and who would not hurt me and will surely save me unless I reject Him first. Love has power. It replaces the power of entropy and changes me from the inside.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

Christian societies indeed have been behaving pretty badly… Wars, slavery, genocide, exploitation of colonies, discrimination, recently amoral Hollywood and rock music industry etc. Non-Christian world honestly looks at it with horror. Some nations were hurt pretty bad and don’t like Christianity (like Canadian first nations with trauma of children abuse/genocide in Christian residential schools)

This is evidence of believing in cultural superiority. It is most pronounced in Islam. Quran 3:110 You are the best nation that ever existed among humanity. You command people to good and prohibit them from evil, and you believe in Allah.

I do not minimize the atrocities, but one has to remember all the good that Christianity has provided to the world in establishing hospitals, schools, science, etc.

So in my view “saved by works” motivates better overall, and makes more sense in regards to justice. Judgement for all people based on behaviour, not on accepting a set of beliefs. Otherwise to keep this idea of “saved by grace” just, you need to add a postmortem chance to hear the gospel and accept it… Otherwise, automatic hell for an unbeliever doesn’t seem fair: there could be so many reasons for the unbelief…

We are saved by grace but judged on behavior. God is more loving and just than all of us and automatic hell for an unbeliever is not fair.