Christian conversions

[chevyontheriver]

In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum. So I have no idea how it’s supposed to happen, probably simply a mental decision in private. Or perhaps the baptisms are the conversions for them. I know there’s some studying involved before you can join the faith, such as “The Law of God” course in the EO churches.

Well, Muslim public conversions, on the other hand, are always a big deal.

You might want to find out more about how one becomes Orthodox or Catholic. The process for a Catholic typically involves months of study and formation and culminates at the Easter Vigil Mass. It's a big deal.

So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…

Where are you that checking email is allowed in a service? What? What kind of 'Christianity' have you been exposed to?

Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subject An ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!

Christians are not likely to kill you or issue fatwas for people who cease to be Christian. Do you think that's a bad thing?

 

[James_Lai]

But, also, we do have a portion of Christians that do continually tell others the gospel message, because it could be that some haven't heard it.

In contrast, a Muslim here would correctly feel that very few have heard their message.

To me, what I often find is that some portion thinks they know about the Christ, but actually have a mistaken idea that isn't the same as the real account. That's not most people, but it is still a fair number, more than just 10% I think.

Yes such do exist, though in my experience they are a tiny minority. Again, proselytizing is just one aspect of my subject of interest, which is strength and sincerely of religious convictions. If we look at it overall. I can’t open each person’s heart and look there… I can only try and judge by the actions, as the Book of James suggests.

 

[Halbhh]

But take me in that case, an immigrant from a non-Christian nation, with a distinctively foreign name and a strong accent. Nobody would assume I’m a Christian. Most people if they ever ask, suggest Buddhism…

Yes, I was just adding a bit more above in that last post. I think most Christians tend to assume that most have already heard the accurate message about Christ, but I was just adding above that some have and some have not, so there is a need to try to convey the more accurate message, so that people can learn about Christ, who came to rescue us from the gradually accumulating weight of our sins (the not-love ways we treat other people at times, gradually adding up over time), and help us find ourselves (remember our souls), to rescue the lost, and help them turn to God. He was willing to suffer our evils without striking back, so that we could begin to see those evils, realize how we've gone away from the best Good, and through trust in Jesus, the Christ, repent and turn to God.

 

[James_Lai]

You might want to find out more about how one becomes Orthodox or Catholic. The process for a Catholic typically involves months of study and formation and culminates at the Easter Vigil Mass. It's a big deal.

Where are you that checking email is allowed in a service? What? What kind of 'Christianity' have you been exposed to?

Christians are not likely to kill you or issue fatwas for people who cease to be Christian. Do you think that's a bad thing?

I don’t know about the conversion process in the Catholic faith. Thank you for explaining. I need to learn in more detail. From what I heard, anybody just goes in and gets baptism…. Then it was the wrong information. My Muslim neighbours did it formally to enrol their children into a highly-sought Catholic school, but I never asked the details how they did it…

Of course I do not thing capital punishment for apostasy as per Sharia is a nice thing Why would I? I’m all for freedom of conscience

 

[James_Lai]

Yes, I was just adding a bit more above in that last post. I think most Christians tend to assume that most have already heard the accurate message about Christ, but I was just adding above that some have and some have not, so there is a need to try to convey the more accurate message, so that people can learn about Christ, who came to rescue us from the gradually accumulating weight of our sins (the not-love ways we treat other people at times, gradually adding up over time), and help us find ourselves (remember our souls), to rescue the lost, and help them turn to God. He was willing to suffer our evils without striking back, so that we could begin to see those evils, realize how we've gone away from the best Good, and through trust in Jesus, the Christ, repent and turn to God.

I understand your point… So Christians shouldn’t assume that everyone around already knows and need to keep sharing the true Gospel..

But my observation is that they don’t, or the absolute majority of them. Never

It’s one of (but not the inly) reason I think “not sincere or not deep faith”, because they don’t walk the talk…

If you truly believe people’s homes are on fire and you care, you’d do something…. Phone 911, run out with a bucket of water, whatever

Doing nothing in response of a saving message and knowledge of people perishing makes you think how much this information is a reality to them, or an untruthful allegory??

Or else you have to assume total lack of compassion, which I don’t think is the case

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you. I don’t know about the conversion process in the Catholic faith. Thank you for explaining. I need to learn in more detail. From what I heard, anybody just goes in and gets baptism…. Then it was the wrong information. My Muslim neighbours did it formally to enrol their children into a highly-sought Catholic school, but I never asked the details how they did it…

You can send your children to a Catholic school no matter what faith you may have. You just register. But that doesn't make you Catholic. To become Catholic takes months of meetings and study and prayer and reflection. Someone in the community has to stand for you and vouch for the seriousness of your commitment and maturity of faith. There is no walking in and coming out baptized a Catholic. Such a quick baptism might happen only for someone dying and doing a deathbed conversion while they are bleeding out.

By the way, your namesake Jimmy Lai from Hong Kong, is a committed and faithful Catholic and is now in prison for his faith in China. A very good man you may wish to learn more about.

 

[James_Lai]

You can send your children to a Catholic school no matter what faith you may have. You just register. But that doesn't make you Catholic. To become Catholic takes months of meetings and study and prayer and reflection. Someone in the community has to stand for you and vouch for the seriousness of your commitment and maturity of faith. There is no walking in and coming out baptized a Catholic. Such a quick baptism might happen only for someone dying and doing a deathbed conversion while they are bleeding out.

No they certainly somehow got baptismal certificates. In that school board, it was highly highly competitive registration with waitlists for non-Catholic applicants and no guarantee to get in. Catholic ones had priority. In other Canadian jurisdictions or for schools with lower rankings or smaller child population, it can be a different situation. It was a newer suburban subdivision with lots of young families with kids and a handful of schools nearby.

In jail oh no…. I’ll check out about him, thank you….

 

[chevyontheriver]

No they certainly somehow got baptismal certificates.

Check on how long that took and how much study time it took them. Ask them. My experience is that it takes months. Even for someone well disposed and well educated in the faith it would take a long time.

 

[James_Lai]

Check on how long that took and how much study time it took them. Ask them. My experience is that it takes months. Even for someone well disposed and well educated in the faith it would take a long time.

I don’t have contact with the neighbours as I moved across provinces. Maybe can search for them on Facebook.

I know there are some Charismatic type Catholic churches, maybe they have a simplified process for baptisms and still would be eligible? Guessing now. Well, could be it wasn’t easy for them, but made it sound it wasn’t. Being Egyptian Muslims they were reluctant to admit it. So I don’t know

I had no idea it’s a complicated process… I thought, you just express your wish to be baptized and that’s it.

 

[eleos1954]

Your thoughts about the below??

One striking difference I find between Christian and Muslim practice is conversions… (Or reverting as Muslims like to say, who consider all infants to be originally born Muslim).

In a protestant Christian church, when there are public conversions (or at least confessing/declaration of conversions), it’s a low-key event. Yes there could be clapping and some happy exclamations, but it all basically culminates with presenting a lootbag of books to the new believers. In some cases, there would be an Alfa course to attend afterwards. Or if you leave and never come back, chances are, you’re forgotten. In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum. So I have no idea how it’s supposed to happen, probably simply a mental decision in private. Or perhaps the baptisms are the conversions for them. I know there’s some studying involved before you can join the faith, such as “The Law of God” course in the EO churches. For protestants, they love to lead new believers in a short “sinner’s prayer”… But not always. Some only require accepting the fundamental truths of the Gospel by faith.

Well, Muslim public conversions, on the other hand, are always a big deal. Probably the biggest of all… The whole mosque would rhythmically repeat in unison “Takbir - Allahu Akbar!” The conversion would be highly emotional, with the convert crying 9 out of 10 times during the Shahada, even if it’s a rugged man…The imam could be sobbing too, as do half of the mosque…

Then the whole mosque would want to congratulate, hug and kiss the man/woman…. (well, pre-2020). They would be so eager to tell you, “Oh brother, I envy you because today you are pure, cleansed of all your previous sin, in a better standing than all of us here who have been sinning, you have a clean slate”. The people really impress this thought upon you. They would welcome the new Muslim to their homes, invite for lunches, throw parties, shower with gifts (even poor people), provide advice on following the Din and growing in the Iman, joke about a new Muslim name for you, suggest how to dress etc… Genuine and cute. Overall, they immediately surround you with a robust network of support as a closed-knit community. They’re especially extatic if you’re not from a traditionally Muslim nation, firmly believing one day Islam would be accepted world over… A big deal for them… I experienced that, though honestly I never really accepted Islam in its entirety, all I wanted was to try it out. I did have some sincerity.

So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…

In Muslim countries, it’s Islam or mostly Islam that directs the public and private life. In Christian or post-Christian countries it’s just an add-on of convenience to otherwise secular life, an add-on that’s mostly kept private.

Muslims want to know your religion first second they meet you, and learning you’re part of the umma, they turn on the “you’re one of us” mode on high gear, kinly opening up to you… Or, the “let me tell you what you’re missing” mode if you’re not. Christians can work with you side-by-side for 10 years and you’d never even once suspect they’re a Christian….

Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subject An ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!

The "ritual" taken ... or not taken with baptisms .... is a moot point and does not make one way better or more sincere .... that is your perception.

Religious systems become corrupt (including in the christian realm) ... Jesus disdains these corrupt systems and will eventually take them all down .... when He returns.

With christianity it is the condition of the heart and only God knows the heart .... and He will judge each one according to His divine knowledge of each one's heart.

 

[James_Lai]

The "ritual" taken ... or not taken with baptisms .... is a mute point and does not make one way better or more sincere .... that is your perception.

Religious systems become corrupt (including in the christian realm) ... Jesus disdains these corrupt systems and will eventually take them all down .... when He returns.

With christianity it is the condition of the heart and only God knows the heart .... and He will judge each one according to His divine knowledge of each one's heart.

I understand

I’m not sure Jesus is indeed is coming back. Also, if Christians don’t know when He’s coming back (maybe in 10,000 years?) isn’t it imperative to stay vigilant with tons of oil in the lamp?

Or if there’s a wide spread pessimism and expectation of decay and eventual destruction of the church, could that be one of the reasons for the lower amount of religious passion among Christians?

On the contrary, it’s a standard Muslim teaching that Islam would take over the whole world…

Christians have a similar commandment (preach to all corners of the world), but it’s not really on the forefront of Christianity today it seems… It’s more defeatism and doom to my impression - earthquakes, the blood moons etc “It’s all gonna burn anyways”

 

[chevyontheriver]

I know there are some Charismatic type Catholic churches, maybe they have a simplified process for baptisms and still would be eligible? Guessing now. Well, could be it wasn’t easy for them, but made it sound it wasn’t. Being Egyptian Muslims they were reluctant to admit it. So I don’t know

I had no idea it’s a complicated process… I thought, you just express your wish to be baptized and that’s it.

A charismatic Catholic church might add a 'Life in the Spirit' class or seminar to the whole process.

But here is another possibility. Being Egyptian they may have been Copts. But then Catholics accept the baptisms of Copts. No need for a rebaptism. In fact they would not be allowed to be rebaptized. One baptism only is allowed, and a Coptic baptism in the past would do just fine.

 

[James_Lai]

A charismatic Catholic church might add a 'Life in the Spirit' class or seminar to the whole process.

But here is another possibility. Being Egyptian they may have been Copts. But then Catholics accept the baptisms of Copts. No need for a rebaptism. In fact they would not be allowed to be rebaptized. One baptism only is allowed, and a Coptic baptism in the past would do just fine.

They were definitely Muslim, not coptic Christians. Other details I don’t know.

 

[eleos1954]

I understand

I’m not sure Jesus is indeed is coming back. Also, if Christians don’t know when He’s coming back (maybe in 10,000 years?) isn’t it imperative to stay vigilant with tons of oil in the lamp?

Or if there’s a wide spread pessimism and expectation of decay and eventual destruction of the church, could that be one of the reasons for the lower amount of religious passion among Christians?

On the contrary, it’s a standard Muslim teaching that Islam would take over the whole world…

Christians have a similar commandment (preach to all corners of the world), but it’s not really on the forefront of Christianity today it seems… It’s more defeatism and doom…

His Word states clearly .... we do not know, and can not know .... and yes because of this we are to be in the continuous state of readiness.

There are however signs that indicate that the time is near ..... how near? we do not know.

In a sense, when one passes away from earthly life .... He has come .... that is .... their fate is sealed .... they wait in the grave (dormant sleep) and will either be resurrected in the 1st and receive eternal life .... or will be resurrected in the second that comes later ..... and destroyed for eternity (no eternal life).

Those in the grave know nothing (no thoughts at all) .... have no sense of time passing.

 

[James_Lai]

There are however signs that indicate that the time is near ..... how near? we do not know.
in.

About the signs…. They are vague enough for every generation of Christians to think they live in the last days. Isn’t it wrong to look out for signs of the end days? Better even refuse to consider these times to be nearing the end times, because it’s against Jesus’s warning of not being able to know.

I don’t think the Bible teaches an end of the world though.

 

[Halbhh]

I understand your point… So Christians shouldn’t assume that everyone around already knows and need to keep sharing the true Gospel..

But my observation is that they don’t, or the absolute majority of them. Never

It’s one of (but not the inly) reason I think “not sincere or not deep faith”, because they don’t walk the talk…

If you truly believe people’s homes are on fire and you care, you’d do something…. Phone 911, run out with a bucket of water, whatever

Doing nothing in response of a saving message and knowledge of people perishing makes you think how much this information is a reality to them, or an untruthful allegory??

Or else you have to assume total lack of compassion, which I don’t think is the case

Christ did say to us that many would not really do what He said to do (even when being with us) -- “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

(This is in Matthew chapter 7, and that's an invaluable chapter we all need to hear, that it's not enough to only say we are Christian, but we must truly believe and thereby then begin to do as Christ said).

He said in that same sermon (the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapters 5-7), that only "few" would take the narrow way that leads into heaven, and "most" would not(!).

And there are many other passages like this -- where even many in the churches, seemingly in appearance to be 'Christian' (from outward superficial appearances, such as being members and/or attending), won't be ready, and will not be admitted into Eternal Life. (The Parable of the Ten Virgins is one of many about being 'ready')

So, believing in His words, I cannot then say that the overwhelming majorities in churches would enter heaven merely because they are in a church, especially not when being in a church was just a social culture of a nation that was predominately 'Christian' by culture. (If 80% of a nation says they are Christian, but Christ said only "few" would make it, then it must be that less than that 80% would actually make it, at least for the situation of a very large nation over time (on the other hand, while a nation could for a generation have a majority that truly believe, that could fit 'few' in that later in time that nation might not have so many that truly believe in a later generation, so the few would be through time. But in the case of a very large nation over time, for many centuries, it's hard to expect most generations would continue in true majorities so that 'few' would turn out to be most)

 

[eleos1954]

About the signs…. They are vague enough for every generation of Christians to think they live in the last days. Isn’t it wrong to look out for signs of the end days? Better even refuse to consider these times to be nearing the end times, because it’s against Jesus’s warning of not being able to know.

I don’t think the Bible teaches an end of the world though.

Urgency has been taught since the beginning .... think about what I said about earthly death .... the urgency is that anytime our fate can be sealed .... that's the urgency.

His Word certainly does teach the end of our current world .... and that He will create a new one.

Read Revelation 21

Revelation 21 BSB

 

[Tolworth John]

One striking difference I find between Christian and Muslim practice is conversions…

Interesting, what you think is important is outward show, nothing has been said about truth.


Tell me, did Jesus get crucified, was he buried in a tomb and did he physically rise from the dead?
The Quran say he did not.

So which is right?

Please state your evidence for your views.

 

[James_Lai]

Christ did say to us that many would not really do what He said to do (even when being with us) -- “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

(This is in Matthew chapter 7, and that's an invaluable chapter we all need to hear, that it's not enough to only say we are Christian, but we must truly believe and thereby then begin to do as Christ said).

He said in that same sermon (the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapters 5-7), that only "few" would take the narrow way that leads into heaven, and "most" would not(!).

And there are many other passages like this -- where even many in the churches, seemingly in appearance to be 'Christian' (from outward superficial appearances, such as being members and/or attending), won't be ready, and will not be admitted into Eternal Life. (The Parable of the Ten Virgins is one of many about being 'ready')

So, believing in His words, I cannot then say that the overwhelming majorities in churches would enter heaven merely because they are in a church, especially not when being in a church was just a social culture of a nation that was predominately 'Christian' by culture. (If 80% of a nation says they are Christian, but Christ said only "few" would make it, then it must be that less than that 80% would actually make it)

I know this view, and I don’t like it. There are other words of Jesus that emphasize the need to be vigilant and do hard work no matter what, serving God who sees everything at all times. What difference does it make what condition the church or the world is at?

Otherwise, if you expect the church to be in a decaying state, then it’s normalized in your mind and you aren’t motivated to try and change it?

As they say about your house, if you don’t fix a broken light switch, a blown away siding, don’t replace a broken window instead covering it with cardboard and so on, then over time you trash your home, because you in your mind accepted that it’s okay for it to be in disrepair…

 

[James_Lai]

Urgency has been taught since the beginning .... think about what I said about earthly death .... the urgency is that anytime our fate can be sealed .... that's the urgency.

His Word certainly does teach the end of our current world .... and that He will create a new one.

Read Revelation 21

Revelation 21 BSB

Revelation, yes. I think it’s historic allegory