Christian and Messianic. What’s in a name?

[GospelS]

What’s the difference between a born again Holy Spirit led Christian and a born again Holy Spirit led Messianic?

I think it’s just English vs Hebrew label because the Holy Spirit is same and Christians or Messianics led by the Holy Spirit do not follow any pagan traditions that get mixed up with the religion, be it Christianity or Messianic Judaism.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here is the difference I see. Messianics are more influenced by rabbinic Judaism than Christians are. Hence the emphasis on Torah and almost a complete lack of continuity between past Christians and themselves. They seek to recover a true Christianity that they believe was lost when gentiles become dominant in the Church.

Christians, on the other hand, are more likely to be influenced by their own tradition, be that in established practice, biblical interpretation and the application of the bible in daily life. Most Christians would accept the Nicene creed as a baseline of Orthodoxy, rooted in both the bible and universal Christian tradition.

 

[GospelS]

Here is the difference I see. Messianics are more influenced by rabbinic Judaism than Christians are. Hence the emphasis on Torah and almost a complete lack of continuity between past Christians and themselves. They seek to recover a true Christianity that they believe was lost when gentiles become dominant in the Church.

Christians, on the other hand, are more likely to be influenced by their own tradition, be that in established practice, biblical interpretation and the application of the bible in daily life. Most Christians would accept the Nicene creed as a baseline of Orthodoxy, rooted in both the bible and universal Christian tradition.

So is true Christianity same as Messianic Judaism. If I’m more influenced by the Old Testament and following only true Christianity as described in the New Testament, then I’m I a Christian or a Messianic.

 

[HARK!]

What’s the difference between a born again Spirit filled Christian and a born again Spirit filled Messianic?

In my opinion, there is no such thing a spirit filled Messianic. Yahudim aren't led by ghosts. We have the Ruach Ha'Kodesh. I don't have it all figured out; but YHWH breathed life into Adam. I see a connection between that breath, and life.

 

[HARK!]

So is true Christianity same as Messianic Judaism.

If you study the etymology of christian; you won't like what you find. Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the word of Elohim. Those who are followers of Yahshua are on the way. Yahshua is the way the truth and the light.

 

[HARK!]

Messianics are more influenced by rabbinic Judaism than Christians are. Hence the emphasis on Torah and almost a complete lack of continuity between past Christians and themselves

There is much to be learned from Rabbinic Judaism; but if the Pharisees had it right; Yahshua would not have had yet to come. There is much to be learned in the Christian church; but. generally their message diverges from that of Messiah; in that they all but reject the Torah. None of us have it right; but we can learn for each other.

 

[GospelS]

In my opinion, there is no such thing a spirit filled Messianic. Yahudim aren't led by ghosts. We have the Ruach Ha'Kodesh. I don't have it all figured out; but YHWH breathed life into Adam. I see a connection between that breath, and life.

Thanks for sharing. I changed that to ‘the Holy Spirit led Messianic’.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There is much to be learned from Rabbinic Judaism; but if the Pharisees had it right; Yahshua would not have had yet to come. There is much to be learned in the Christian church; but. generally their message diverges from that of Messiah; in that they all but reject the Torah. None of us have it right; but we can learn for each other.

What have Messianics, on the whole, accepted from the Christian tradition? What have Messianics, on the whole, accepted from the Pharisaic/Rabbinic Judaism's tradition?

I disagree with your assertion that we have diverged from the message of the messiah but I'll leave it at that.

 

[Soyeong]

What’s the difference between a born again Holy Spirit led Christian and a born again Holy Spirit led Messianic?

I think it’s just English vs Hebrew label because the Holy Spirit is same and Christians or Messianics led by the Holy Spirit do not follow any pagan traditions that get mixed up with the religion, be it Christianity or Messianic Judaism.

Labels are just tools that we use to quickly convey information about what we believe. The issue is that if I identify as a Christian, then I am communicating things that are false to the average person, such as as that I worship on Sunday instead of keeping the Sabbath holy, or that I don't keep God's other holy days, or that I don't keep kosher. However, if I don't identify as a Christian, then I a communicating even more things that are false to the average person, so the label has more or less be ruined for me.

Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different God, but rather he came to bring fullness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. All Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as its prophesied Messiah. So I use the label "Messianic Judaism" in recognition of the fact that it is a form of Judaism, and that it is the form of Judaism that follows the Messiah.

 

[HARK!]

What have Messianics, on the whole, accepted from the Christian tradition?

Messiah

What have Messianics, on the whole, accepted from the Pharisaic/Rabbinic Judaism's tradition?

Torah

I disagree with your assertion that we have diverged from the message of the messiah but I'll leave it at that.

Yahshua's entire ministry was driving home the message of keeping the Torah. He was tortured to death in obedience to YHWH. After he ascended, his students continued in Yahshua's teachings, obedience to the Torah. Almost all of them taught this message until they faced brutal deaths. Then somehow (I know many of the sordid details) Christianity comes up with this notion that the message of Yahshua's entire ministry, was nailed to a cross with him.

That strikes me as a divergence; but I'll leave it at that.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Messiah

This is too vague to mean anything substantial. What actual theology have Messianics inherited from Christianity? I would like to know.

Torah

Were the pharisees and subsequent generations of Jews correct with regards to the law?

Yahshua's entire ministry was driving home the message of keeping the Torah. He was tortured to death in obedience to YHWH. After he ascended, his students continued in Yahshua's teachings, obedience to the Torah. Almost all of them taught this message until they faced brutal deaths. Then somehow (I know many of the sordid details) Christianity comes up with this notion that the message of Yahshua's entire ministry, was nailed to a cross with him.

That strikes me as a divergence; but I'll leave it at that.

Jesus' entire life was important but the death and resurrection of Christ are the focal point. Your depiction of Christianity and the Apostolic deposit is missing any accurate accounting of how Christianity views the life of Christ.

 

[HARK!]

This is too vague to mean anything substantial. What actual theology have Messianics inherited from Christianity? I would like to know.

Too vague? Why do you suppose Messianics call themselves Messianics?

Were the pharisees and subsequent generations of Jews correct with regards to the law?

You're being way too general. Obviously the Pharisees had it wrong. Do Christians have it right? If so; why are there so many denominations?

Jesus' entire life was important but the death and resurrection of Christ are the focal point. Your depiction of Christianity and the Apostolic deposit is missing any accurate accounting of how Christianity views the life of Christ.

Really? I went to Christians churches, and Sunday school for nearly every Sunday for about 40 years, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Non-Denominational, and others. I grew up in a strong Christian family, and extended family. My great grandmother ran a Sunday school, out in the country; because there was no church around. My cousin became a missionary, and he's doing his work in Thailand as we speak. I broke away from the church and did private study until I found out about Messianic Judaism; but you, some random guy on the internet, are going to tell me that I don't have an accurate accounting of Christianity?

You don't have an accurate accounting of Messiah. Messiah did not destroy the Torah that his Father sent him to teach.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Too vague? Why do you suppose Messianics call themselves Messianics?

Then I'm not talking to them. I'm asking, to anyone who calls themselves a Messianic, what have you inherited from the Christian tradition? That you can't even list one thing is evidence of something.

You're being way too general. Obviously the Pharisees had it wrong. Do Christians have it right? If so; why are there so many denominations?

If I'm being too general then it's up to you to clarify. You only provided a one word answer, Torah, to the question of what the Pharisees/rabbinic Jews had right. If you disagree with their application of the law then what do they have right?

As to why there are so many denominations I can only but say it is because God has given us free will. Men will go astray.

Really? I went to Christians churches, and Sunday school for nearly every Sunday for about 40 years, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Non-Denominational, and others. I grew up in a strong Christian family, and extended family. My great grandmother ran a Sunday school, out in the country; because there was no church around. My cousin became a missionary, and he's doing his work in Thailand as we speak. I broke away from the church and did private study until I found out about Messianic Judaism; but you, some random guy on the internet, is going to tell me that I don't have an accurate accounting of Christianity?

You don't have an accurate accounting of Messiah. Messiah did not destroy the Torah that his Father sent him to teach.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Your apparent credentials aside, i simply base it in your description of Christian theological emphasis. Since when did Christians ever say Jesus' message died with him on the cross?

I don't know if I'm allowed to contradict you on matters of the law in this forum. Am I allowed to respond and give a counter perspective to your belief that all of the law is still in force?

 

[HARK!]

Then I'm not talking to them. I'm asking, to anyone who calls themselves a Messianic, what have you inherited from the Christian tradition? That you can't even list one thing is evidence of something.

I did list one thing. Messiah! Knowledge of the Messiah is the most valuable piece of knowledge that Christianity has given me. Anything else that Christianity has given me is a footnote.

If I'm being too general then it's up to you to clarify. You only provided a one word answer, Torah, to the question of what the Pharisees/rabbinic Jews had right. If you disagree with their application of the law then what do they have right?

Israel has the Torah. The Jews have the Torah. Pharisaic/Rabbinic Jews have the Torah. Karaite Jews have the Torah. Even the Samaritans have the Torah. Christianity, in general, rejects the Torah.

I was considering going to a Karaite congregation; because, aside from Messiah, their views are closest to mine. Unfortunately I've come to learn that they don't want Messianics around them.

As to why there are so many denominations I can only but say it is because God has given us free will. Men will go astray.

So you're saying that most of Christianity doesn't have it right. Well neither does most of Judaism. Thus! Messianics! Well, Messianics have varying views too; but I would say that most of them are closer to the truth, than most Christians, and most Jews.

Your apparent credentials aside, i simply base it in your description of Christian theological emphasis. Since when did Christians ever say Jesus' message died with him on the cross?

Most Christians will say that they're not under the law. They twist what Paul meant by that. Most Christians will say that the law (Torah) was nailed to a cross with Messiah. I'm repeating myself now. I find it difficult to believe that to haven't heard these falsehoods repeated before.

I don't know if I'm allowed to contradict you on matters of the law in this forum. Am I allowed to respond and give a counter perspective to your belief that all of the law is still in force?

That's not for me to say, as I'm not a Mod, and it's outside of my authority; but I would be careful. Personally, I believe that you came to the wrong place to debate your stance. You're at a serious disadvantage here.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I did list one thing. Messiah! Knowledge of the Messiah is the most valuable piece of knowledge that Christianity has given me. Anything else that Christianity has given me is a footnote.

The problem is that it doesn't mean anything in particular. I can assume from this you believe in the gospels, but I don't know what exactly you agree with Christians on since you will not divulge any specifics. I am speaking about theology here, which i assume you have.

Saying you owe your knowledge of the Messiah to Christians means little to me. A Muslim or Bahai could say that and it would mean very little since they have very different conceptions of Christ.

Can you think of nothing besides a vague knowledge of Jesus?

Israel has the Torah. The Jews have the Torah. Pharisaic/Rabbinic Jews have the Torah. Karaite Jews have the Torah. Even the Samaritans have the Torah. Christianity, in general, rejects the Torah.

I was considering going to a Karaite congregation; because, aside from Messiah, their views are closest to mine. Unfortunately I've come to learn that they don't want Messianics around them.

Karaites are hated by Rabbinic Jews (historically they were persecuted within Jewish communities). Do you agree with their rejection of Jewish tradition, in which case what are the valuable inheritances you have received from rabbinic or Pharasaical Judaism? If it's just "Torah," what about it in particular?

Is it the obeying of it? Christians haven't rejected Torah, but we don't hold that all of need be practiced. For instance, there is nothing that compels me, a believer in Jesus, to be circumcised like the law proscribes. Do you agree with Jews on this matter and think this is Christian rejection of the Torah?

So you're saying that most of Christianity doesn't have it right. Well neither does most of Judaism. Thus! Messianics! Well, Messianics have varying views too; but I would say that most of them are closer to the truth, than most Christians, and most Jews.

I would say most of Christendom doesn't have it right, not that most of Christianity doesn't have it right (since Christianity is the truth itself). The difference between Christendom and Messianics is that within the former I can at least point to some things we agree with. Messianics seem all over the place. You have ebionites, you have those who insist on all the practices of modern day rabbinic Judaism and you have those who are just privately Jewish and don't expect anything of Gentiles.

Most Christians will say that they're not under the law. They twist what Paul meant by that. Most Christians will say that the law (Torah) was nailed to a cross with Messiah. I'm repeating myself now. I find it difficult to believe that to haven't heard these falsehoods repeated before.

When it comes to Christian appreciation of the Old Testament and the Torah specifically I think you are using a generalization of Christianity. What you are describing seems to be the Protestant view of the law rather than that of Christendom as a whole. Though you are correct, almost all Christians would say they are not bound by the law of circumcision for instance.

That's not for me to say, as I'm not a Mod, and it's outside of my authority; but I would be careful. Personally, I believe that you came to the wrong place to debate your stance. You're at a serious disadvantage here.

I understand that, Hence I am being careful.

 

[visionary]

Many Christians, like myself, have been lead to the truths that Messianics hold. Adopted by faith into the commonwealth of Israel, I have learned that this body include Jews coming from traditional Judaism, be it Orthodox, or Reform, to a faith in Messiah Yeshua, and Christians like myself from all branches of Christianity, and is diverse from congregation to congregation, as the blending of its members dictate.

My congregational leader was a Baptist preacher, but has taken on the Jewish traditions that bring him and the congregation to better understanding of what it was like when it was all "Jewish". His training in Baptist doctrines have run into conflicts with Judaism, and it has been an incredible learning curve for him. Like us all within the congregation, we are learning PaRDeS of the very roots of the language, the meaning of the scripture in Hebrew mindset, and have been blessed by it. We, all, have a long ways to go, both for the Jews born and raised in Judaism, and the Christians who have come to the faith.


Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[visionary]

So is true Christianity same as Messianic Judaism. If I’m more influenced by the Old Testament and following only true Christianity as described in the New Testament, then I’m I a Christian or a Messianic.

Since your influence is by both old and new, which is excellent, I would say that you are on a more balanced spiritual life in Him. As to whether you choose to follow the today's version of Christianity or Messianic version, that should be immaterial as Paul said, it is more important to not be following names as it is to follow Yeshua your Messiah in all matters. If it lands you in one congregation or another, it is spiritually being lead to receive or give blessings where ever the Lord leads.

Messianic faith is a combination of both and seeing the Holy Spirit's light shining on both in all its Jewishness. After all, God invented the Jewish faith. The Jews tweeted it, but for 2,000 years before Yeshua walked the earth were faith keepers of the Word. That is why scripture can be trusted to faith and true. They were meticulous. There are many blessings in learning what they know.

 

[HARK!]

Can you think of nothing besides a vague knowledge of Jesus?

I don't have a vague knowledge of Yahshua. Although most of Christianity tramples Yhashua's message; it was Christianity that showed me to the message of Yahshua, not Judaism; however it's Judaism that drives Yahshua's message home.

(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

==================================================
THE WAY
==================================================

(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that Moses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

==================================================
THE TRUTH
==================================================

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

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THE LIFE
==================================================

(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

==================================================
THE LIGHT
==================================================

(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

==================================================
THE WORD
==================================================

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.


Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.


Hallelu YAH!

 

[HARK!]

Karaites are hated by Rabbinic Jews (historically they were persecuted within Jewish communities). Do you agree with their rejection of Jewish tradition, in which case what are the valuable inheritances you have received from rabbinic or Pharasaical Judaism? If it's just "Torah," what about it in particular?

All of those, at the Messianic congregations that I've attended, who came from Judaism, came from rabbinic Judaism. They brought the Talmud with them. I appreciate that. I don't hold the Talmud as scripture; but then neither do i hold history as scripture. However, as history has value in obtaining a better understanding of scripture; so does the Talmud. Yahshua rebuked the Pharisees for holding the Talmud over the Torah. That was the Talmud of his day; but the Talmud of today has been expanded. The Rabbis wrote down the understanding of the priesthood, after the Temple fell, so that knowledge wouldn't be lost in the dispersion. Is it scripture? No. Can we trust it all? No; but there is value in what lines up with Torah, from a culture that has been lost form Christianity. YHWH chose Israel to bring his Torah to the world. They were living it, although not perfectly, while most of the rest of the world was still worshiping the sun, and rocks, and trees.

Again, I admire the Karaites, the most; as they make the best attempt to follow the Torah; but even Rabbinic Judaism does a much better job than most of Christianity.

You do understand that following Torah, is following the example of Yahshua; no?

We are to be in his ways.

In the time of Noah, if you believed that the deluge was to come; but you rejected the lifestyle of Noah; do you believe that you could have built your own ark and been saved?

Yahshua was commissioned only for the lost sheep of Israel. YHWH's covenant is with Israel. We are all to be one in YHWH through Yahshua.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

You can't build your own ark. Your ark is in Yahshua with Israel.

 

[HARK!]

I would say most of Christendom doesn't have it right, not that most of Christianity doesn't have it right (since Christianity is the truth itself).

Was this a typo; or are you being double minded?

The difference between Christendom and Messianics is that within the former I can at least point to some things we agree with. Messianics seem all over the place. You have ebionites, you have those who insist on all the practices of modern day rabbinic Judaism and you have those who are just privately Jewish and don't expect anything of Gentiles.

Messianics are a denomination of Christianity. You should choose your words more carefully. Christianity is all over the place. We wouldn't be all over the place if we we're following the living Torah, instead of the doctrines of men that Yahshua rebuked. The people who make up Messianic congregations, are taking the next step in their search for truth. They come from all denominations of Christianity. If Christianity is all over the place; it would only stand to reason that Messianic congregations would reflect the diversity backgrounds of the understandings of their members. The beauty of all of this, is they don't all submit to one faulty doctrine of man. They bring their understanding to the scrutiny of their fellowship with others who seek the truth. As a witness to this scrutiny, their fellowship accepts the whole Bible as being valid today.